222 réponses à ce sujet

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

I regret...

I regret opening a thread where BSN oafs fight over the dumbest things. Refuse is a ****ty choice I get it. Anyway, there is no proof that the next cycle is even going to defeat the Reapers. Liara isn't going to save the next cycle.

[Foolsfolly]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I regret...

I regret opening a thread where BSN oafs fight over the dumbest things. Refuse is a ****ty choice I get it. Anyway, there is no proof that the next cycle is even going to defeat the Reapers. Liara isn't going to save the next cycle.

The end credits shows a mother and daughter talking about how they defeated the Reapers using what Liara left behind. Then the daughter asks to hear another story about Shepard.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I regret...

I regret opening a thread where BSN oafs fight over the dumbest things. Refuse is a ****ty choice I get it. Anyway, there is no proof that the next cycle is even going to defeat the Reapers. Liara isn't going to save the next cycle.

The end credits shows a mother and daughter talking about how they defeated the Reapers using what Liara left behind. Then the daughter asks to hear another story about Shepard.

I thought Bioware was too lazy to remove that so they shoved it in for all endings. My bad. 

[Foolsfolly]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I regret...

I regret opening a thread where BSN oafs fight over the dumbest things. Refuse is a ****ty choice I get it. Anyway, there is no proof that the next cycle is even going to defeat the Reapers. Liara isn't going to save the next cycle.

The end credits shows a mother and daughter talking about how they defeated the Reapers using what Liara left behind. Then the daughter asks to hear another story about Shepard.

I thought Bioware was too lazy to remove that so they shoved it in for all endings. My bad. 

It's actually different for Refusal. New dialogue, new characters, and they're non-human (they look asari but I'm willing to bet they just couldn't be bothered to design new models and are pretending they're not asari).

[freyafolk]

Foolsfolly wrote...

freyafolk wrote...


Refuse is a poor choice, after-the-fact. In the moment it seems entirely reasonable given how poor the other choices are and an understandable distrust of the entity presenting them. Refuse only becomes a poor choice because Bioware decided not to allow an ending where it succeeds. Imagine if instead having 8,000 assets allowed for a conventional victory. I expect in that case most players would choose refuse.

At the time of decision-making Shepard doesn't know the outcome for certain unless he/she totally trusts the catalyst. The real question is why would players pick refuse on subsequent play-throughs?

Here I suspect there is a different narrative in play. Many who support refuse were likely unhappy with the original choices. Therefore the Starchild becomes Bioware saying 'You will learn to agree that this is a good ending' and the player is saying 'No. These choices (even with better explanation) are still ALL bad. I refuse to accept this ending.' Which, if you think about it, is quite reasonable too.

If that were case no one would be having this discussion. The people saying you couldn't win conventionally would just always Refuse and win conventionally. Even if it meant the Normandy and her crew didn't survive the battle for Earth.

I mean why would ever do anything else?

Sure, if they knew it would work. Likewise, most people don't choose it when they know it won't. My point was that theoretically Shepard/the player doesn't know 100% that it won't work (1st time through). If you thought that there was a 5% chance that refuse would work, you still be tempted to choose it as an option if you really hate the other choices. 

Similarly, 8,000 assets is a lot. If they allowed this route many players would still fail to win conventionally. Then you could have a situation where you have to make a judgement call whether to accept the choice or to trust in your strength. I guess the flaw in this is I'm assuming most players wouldn't look up the exact requirements on their 1st play through. It'd be interesting to see a range from total obliteration to narrow defeat to pyrrhic victory to narrow victory. It would give so much more meaning to the war assets too. 

However, this is all wishful thinking because it would encourage players to circumvent the three colours and Bioware clearly doesn't want that, which goes to the 2nd part of my first post. 

[Rommel49]

The Twilight God wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...

Again, it's implied or stated directly multiple times (including the codex) that victory over the Reapers was possible, simply by virtue of the fact that they've taken casualties, and those sources outnumber Hackett by a fair margin, or have more knowledge of Reaper capabilities than he does. That fact remains. Period.

U.S forces took casualties in Iraq. I guess the Iraqi forces could have won and conquered the U.S. The ability to inflict casualties does not mean you can win a war. I'm not going to repeat this anymore because you are clearly in denial.

Your own example undermines the point you're trying to make - it's debateable if the U.S. achieved victory in the Iraq war... quite the contrary, a lot of people argue that the fact we're leaving the country is conceding defeat.

Victory is about achieving objectives. It's very rarely been the case that victory necessitates killing every single enemy, occupying every scrap of land, etc. when on the defense or being occupied, simply making the effort too costly for the enemy to want to continue can accomplish that... and in the case of the current cycle, we're already mathematically not worth it at this point - Objectively, the Reapers have lost far more from this cycle than they'll ever get from it, just during the battles for Palaven.

As noted, the number of sources suggesting or stating that a conventional victory is possible are both more numerous, and in atleast one case, more knowledgeable about Reaper capabilities than Hackett. It's kinda telling you scurry away from this point (of course, it's not the only one).

To reiterate, why do the Reapers bother locking down missile silos? The math tells us why.

Of course, I expect you to flee from these points too, just like you did the last time.

[Haargel]

Sgt. Barnes would like to have a word.

[Rommel49]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I regret...

I regret opening a thread where BSN oafs fight over the dumbest things. Refuse is a ****ty choice I get it. Anyway, there is no proof that the next cycle is even going to defeat the Reapers. Liara isn't going to save the next cycle.

The end credits shows a mother and daughter talking about how they defeated the Reapers using what Liara left behind. Then the daughter asks to hear another story about Shepard.

Considering how vague the refusal ending is, we really don't know that. The refusal stargazer never actually says her own race so much as even encountered the Reapers, let alone defeated them (with the Crucible or otherwise). She even says "we'll never know what it was like", and that without the information from the archives "we too would be threatened"... and ironically enough, Liara's archive basically tells the listener that the Crucible was effectively a dud, that it was built and it didn't work.

Hell, the Reapers are never even mentioned by name - the "we too would be threatened line" could refer to something like the Leviathans and their disco balls at this point.

It's kinda funny, if you want to be really nitpicky about this particular ending, there isn't even anything that definitively shows that the refusal actually resulted in defeat; the refusal ending really is that vague.  Sure, it's certainly implied that refusal resulted in defeat, and it can definitely be inferred since that's what Liara's recording in the archive says. However, no real timeframe is actually given, we don't know when she recorded that message (except that it was after the refusal) and she was already having those archives seeded on multiple planets, etc. as a "just in case" precaution. Everything the Stargazer knows comes from the archive, and we don't know when the archive was found... even the idea the 'gazer is from the next cycle is just an assumption. Just the simple fact that Liara was alive to record that message means that the Normandy almost certainly had to survive the battle at Earth, atleast.

[MythicalStick]

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

[DOYOURLABS]

I chose refuse because the Catalyst created the Reapers and the cycles that killed probably trillions. Where does that show it can be trusted?

[MythicalStick]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

I chose refuse because the Catalyst created the Reapers and the cycles that killed probably trillions. Where does that show it can be trusted?

Once more:

Emperor:  Strike me down with all your hatred, then your journey to the darkside will be complete.

Luke:  Man, I can't trust you.  I give up.  I refuse.  Where is my X-Wing? 

Mace Windu:  Move over, kid.  You're just not cut out for this job.  Go back to your farm.


Go back to your farm. 

[Rommel49]

MythicalStick wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

I chose refuse because the Catalyst created the Reapers and the cycles that killed probably trillions. Where does that show it can be trusted?

Once more:

Emperor:  Strike me down with all your hatred, then your journey to the darkside will be complete.

Luke:  Man, I can't trust you.  I give up.  I refuse.  Where is my X-Wing? 

Mace Windu:  Move over, kid.  You're just not cut out for this job.  Go back to your farm.


Go back to your farm. 

But... didn't Mace Windu die as a result of trying to kill the Emperor which led to the birth of the Empire, whereas the Emperor died when he met Luke...?

[MythicalStick]

Rommel49 wrote...

MythicalStick wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

I chose refuse because the Catalyst created the Reapers and the cycles that killed probably trillions. Where does that show it can be trusted?

Once more:

Emperor:  Strike me down with all your hatred, then your journey to the darkside will be complete.

Luke:  Man, I can't trust you.  I give up.  I refuse.  Where is my X-Wing? 

Mace Windu:  Move over, kid.  You're just not cut out for this job.  Go back to your farm.


Go back to your farm. 

But... didn't Mace Windu die as a result of trying to kill the Emperor which led to the birth of the Empire, whereas the Emperor died when he met Luke...?

Mace Windu died because Anakin Sywalker became Darth Douche.  So you're saying that Anakin Skywalker was thinking more clearly then Mace Windu? 

And Luke didn't defeat the emperor.  Darth Vader did.  Darth Vader doesn't choose refuse.  Luke did, and almost got killed by an extremely high electric bill.  Thanks Dad!  Next time I won't throw my lightsaber on the ground like a dumb@**. 

[avatar0]

I never got the vibe that conventional victory was impossible as I was playing the game.
To those who are completely convinced that conventional victory is impossible, please bring forward some form of in-game proof.

On the other hand, Shepard did explain to EDI how survival was not everything, that there are more important things at stake.
EDI also agreed that the reapers, who valued survival above all else, were repulsive.

So metagaming or not, I don't see how choosing Refuse is hard to understand.

[Foolsfolly]

MythicalStick wrote...

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

Did you ever see the opening volley with the highest EMS score? Every Reaper hit dies. It's at the end of this video.

They're not unstoppable.

[JG The Gamer]

 As I see it, the attack on Earth is in fact the biggest distraction in galactic history. I know going in that a long, drawn out battle on our terms as a united galaxy will ultimately be a futile one. The Reapers are just too much to handle. We've been told that many times. So we hedge the galaxy's bets on the Crucible even though we don't know what it does. I don't see a better option. It has to be something that can stop the Reapers as past cycles have hedged their galaxy's bets on it too.

And then I look at our three teams our united galaxy has been divided into:

Sword Fleet - The biggest distraction in galactic history. Until we can get the Citadel arms open, this fleet has to keep the Reapers amused and entertained for long sustained period of time. They knew that they had to hold back the Reapers at all costs.

Shield Fleet - The most important escort in galactic history. The better this armada, the better chance you have of getting the Crucible to the Citadel completely intact. Their objective was to defend the Crucible at all costs.

Hammer Team - Now THIS is a textbook suicide mission. Take that Collector Base! Most if not all of the team got decimated by the time all was said and done. The objective was to get to the beam and onto the Citadel at any cost and open those arms.

Okay, so once we on the Citadel, we get the arms open and the Crucible docks. Now we meet the Catalyst. It says that the Crucible's addition changed it, gave it new choices, but it can't make them happen. I remember someone said that it was designed for an organic to use.

Over the past cycles, countless numbers of people have worked on it, added to it, improved upon its design.The initial idea to destroy all synthetics was the primary objective and so it's the first choice the Catalyst mentions. Somewhere along the line, a cycle likely chose to control the Reapers and maybe there was a splinter faction that wanted to destroy the Reapers resulting in organic dissolution.

I'm guessing Synthesis was an option at one point in time, but the Catalyst said conditions made it impossible though it is a choice now.

And eventually the time has come to choose. Back to the topic at hand. Why pick 'Refuse'? I'm not sure. You battled for three games to get to this point in time. A point where the three choices in front of you will result in the Reapers ceasing the galactic harvest. People say they refuse because they don't trust the Catalyst. I ask those people if they see a better option. We may be this 'united galaxy' but it's going to mean nothing by the time this war is over as we WILL LOSE. Sure you may have your morals and beliefs intact, but they'll mean nothing because the galaxy was obliterated again. As Javik said, "Stand on the ashes of a trillion dead and ask the ghosts if honour matters". Even I argued with him, but I began to see the writing on the wall as the game went on. That victory in this war is going to come with some heavy prices to pay.

And at that moment in time, you learn what the exact price is going to be for each decision that will end the cycles, and because you don't like any of them, you throw up your arms and say "I quit"?

Sometimes I think the best part about these choices is that they are in fact a reflection of ourselves. What we see when we're faced with a very difficult decision with very heart-wrenching outcomes for each one. With Destroy, we wipe out all synthetics in the crossfire but the Reapers are gone forever. With Control, we become the new Catalyst, ordering the Reapers to stop the harvest at the cost of our own life/humanity. Or with Synthesis, we dissolve ourselves so that the galaxy fastforwards to the point where everyone is partially synthetic.

Some here claim that they don't trust the Catalyst. I wouldn't either, considering what this piece of software has done to the galaxy over billions of years. But time is running out and it probably knows more about what is going on than I do. If I follow what it says, I may end up dead. If I don't follow, I AM DEAD. So I choose to follow, cautiously. (Looking back on reading what I typed, it sounds like I'm indoctrinated, hahaha. IT?)

All of these are difficult choices that do indeed guarantee an end to the harvest. We're not supposed to like these choices, but they are a reflection of ourselves and the person that we are (if you are indeed playing as what you would do if you were in Shepard's shoes). And perhaps some people just can't live with themselves for making such a difficult decision. So they would rather refuse and pass the problem onto someone else for whom honour isn't the be all end all virtue? I couldn't just get all the way to the finish line and say "I quit" because I don't like that last turn in the race. I have to make a choice of some sort, to try and give the galaxy a future that isn't just about imminent death at the hands of the Reapers.

I personally chose Destroy. It did rub me the wrong way, considering all I did for EDI and the geth. But it was the choice that would rid the galaxy of the Reapers forever, so that the galaxy can indeed rebuild itself on its own terms and dictate its own future. Maybe synthetics will be rebuilt, maybe they won't. That's for the galaxy to decide.

If I ever get pulled out of the rubble, I doubt I'll be seen as a war criminal. More so as a hero likely. Of course what I did I'll have to carry with me, knowing that I made a difficult choice. 10 billion synthetics lost their lives so trillions of organics can win. They're heroes in my mind, because without their sacrfice the Reaper-free future isn't possible.

Anyways, that's my 2 Canadian cents. *Yawns* I need a coffee. Hope this makes enough sense to all of you.

[MythicalStick]

Foolsfolly wrote...

MythicalStick wrote...

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

Did you ever see the opening volley with the highest EMS score? Every Reaper hit dies. It's at the end of this video.

They're not unstoppable.

Uhhhhh.  Yes they are. 

Proof: 

You lose if you don't use the crucible. 

Reason: 

You're using all of your military strength against one single portion of the Reaper forces.  And you were not winning. 

[Foolsfolly]

Do you loose?

We hurt the ****s and they don't another cycle because of our actions. We don't live but we still defeat them and we do it on our own terms and not their's.

Refusal's a fine option. You still win... as much as you win with any of these terrible endings.

[Transairion]

Did you ever see the opening volley with the highest EMS score? Every Reaper hit dies. It's at the end of this video.

They're not unstoppable.

I'm not sure where you're trying to pull this from, but all I see in the video was volley shots impacting into Reapers, exploding, and the Reapers being totally unscathed by them and just surging onwards.

"Every single Reaper hit dies"? Not a single one looked damaged to me. Thats hardly conventional victory right there...

One of the only Reapers to actually die in the big fight is seen being focused-fired by multiple ships at pointblank range, and even as it "dies" it fires another laser and obliterates one of it's attackers. So yeah, Reapers aren't being killed in the hundreds they're being killed in like.... pairs. Lose 50 ships for the Reapers to lose 5 of theirs.

Do you loose?

If the Reapers kill all the space-faring races like they do every 50,000 years I wouldn't call that winning. That's what happens in Refuse. Everyone gets Reap'd.

Good luck next cycle.

Modifié par Transairion, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[Pitznik]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Do you loose?

We hurt the ****s and they don't another cycle because of our actions. We don't live but we still defeat them and we do it on our own terms and not their's.

Refusal's a fine option. You still win... as much as you win with any of these terrible endings.

Of course you lose. Someone else in the future (maybe the next cycle, maybe the one after the next) winds. Who knows who they are? Maybe a bunch of slavers, maybe some totalitarian system like Prothean Empire. Maybe they're worse jerks than the Reapers.

Also, you don't know if they did it on their terms or not. It is strongly implied that Crucible was used - because there was no war.

[MythicalStick]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Do you loose?

We hurt the ****s and they don't another cycle because of our actions. We don't live but we still defeat them and we do it on our own terms and not their's.

Refusal's a fine option. You still win... as much as you win with any of these terrible endings.

Yes, you lose, trillions die, and the next cycle survies because Liara was able to tell them.

"Have cojones.  Use the crucible.  Don't be the ultimate loser like Commander Shephard.  That is the way to win. " 

[Kamfrenchie]

Transairion wrote...

Did you ever see the opening volley with the highest EMS score? Every Reaper hit dies. It's at the end of this video.

They're not unstoppable.

I'm not sure where you're trying to pull this from, but all I see in the video was volley shots impacting into Reapers, exploding, and the Reapers being totally unscathed by them and just surging onwards.

"Every single Reaper hit dies"? Not a single one looked damaged to me. Thats hardly conventional victory right there...

One of the only Reapers to actually die in the big fight is seen being focused-fired by multiple ships at pointblank range, and even as it "dies" it fires another laser and obliterates one of it's attackers. So yeah, Reapers aren't being killed in the hundreds they're being killed in like.... pairs. Lose 50 ships for the Reapers to lose 5 of theirs.

Do you loose?

If the Reapers kill all the space-faring races like they do every 50,000 years I wouldn't call that winning. That's what happens in Refuse. Everyone gets Reap'd.

Good luck next cycle.

the stargazer scene from refusal proves the reapers are defeated.

The current races could survive with something like  a vault prject (from fallout)

Also, cains kill reapers, so yeahif they do you'd think we can win this

[Saans Shadow]

MythicalStick wrote...

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

This is how I feel but some people want to keep thier personal morals by refusing..  I can't understand that viewpoint and find it a little selfish because you sacrifice an entire cycle just to keep your personal morals intact, I don't see the good in that, but the same can be said about all the choices.  My preferred method is Synth, no if's, and's or but's about it.  I will not however tell you your choice is wrong since it's all based on opinion and personal preference, we all have a reason to chose what  we chose and why we chose it and while I may not agree with it I will respect it and why you chose it.

[Kamfrenchie]

Saans Shadow wrote...

MythicalStick wrote...

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

This is how I feel but some people want to keep thier personal morals by refusing..  I can't understand that viewpoint and find it a little selfish because you sacrifice an entire cycle just to keep your personal morals intact, I don't see the good in that, but the same can be said about all the choices.  My preferred method is Synth, no if's, and's or but's about it.  I will not however tell you your choice is wrong since it's all based on opinion and personal preference, we all have a reason to chose what  we chose and why we chose it and while I may not agree with it I will respect it and why you chose it.

so you would force everyone to have a new DNA and let giant shipsthat an inoctrinate people live ? Don't use metagaming btw, like using the EC epilogue.

[Saans Shadow]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Saans Shadow wrote...

MythicalStick wrote...

You
Cannot
Defeat
The Reapers
Without
The Crucible

Proof:

You got the entire military might of the galaxy together for one fight in one system against only a portion of the Reaper's strength, and were losing. Good luck with refuse. I'll tell your wife how brave you were marching into Mordor.

This is how I feel but some people want to keep thier personal morals by refusing..  I can't understand that viewpoint and find it a little selfish because you sacrifice an entire cycle just to keep your personal morals intact, I don't see the good in that, but the same can be said about all the choices.  My preferred method is Synth, no if's, and's or but's about it.  I will not however tell you your choice is wrong since it's all based on opinion and personal preference, we all have a reason to choose what  we chose and why we chose it and while I may not agree with it I will respect it and why you chose it.

so you would force everyone to have a new DNA and let giant shipsthat an inoctrinate people live ? Don't use metagaming btw, like using the EC epilogue.

After the EC I see the Reapers as victims and as far as I'm concerned its augmenting the DNA with tech in organics and true emotional awareness and organic comprehension to synthetics, so forcing organics with a tech upgrade that doesn't sacrifice free will or racial identity but provides learning and understanding at the speed of light and giving synthetics the ability to truely comprehend emotion and organic thinking...yeah I'll do it.  Everytime.  I don't consider it evil or brainwashing or bending to the Reapers will.  If both forms of life were headed that way anyway, why not help it along.  People keep saying that we don't have the right to do that but I say the same for all of the endings.  Thats the point though.  The ending choices present you with a way to end your game but at some kind of sacrifice and not just yourself. 

With Control you assume control (no pun  intended lol) of the reapers becoming the new AI that directs them.  I believe in the old axiom "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"  I wasn't willing to take that chance.

With Destroy you have to sacrifice EDI and the Geth to get your "Reapers are dead" win.  I wasn't willing to commit genocide and kill one of my own crew members whom I have helped to guide her with her struggle with becoming more than what she is.

You already have my viewpoints on Refusal.

All of them are supposed to tug on your moral heartstrings its just synth seems like the best option to me.  Don't sacrifice the Geth or EDI, I'm not some new AI in control of reapers that could possibly go rouge. Oh and I forgot to mention, what if somebody (AKA new super badguy organization similar to cerberus) builds another crucible, rewrites shepard (not actually sure if it's even possible now but that would worry me) and is now in control of reaper armada of doom.  I don't feel like I have the right to control someone or end their life/lives.  So if that means I have to alter life to survive and end the cycle I will do it.  If Synthesis had negated free will then I would be a destroyer all the way because I know EDI and the Geth wouldn't have wanted to live as slaves.

Sorry this took me a while to respond, I'm currently at work lol