146 réponses à ce sujet

[IllusiveManJr]

I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place. Maybe once I finish Origins I'll find out. DA:II didn't really explain that.

[Foolsfolly]

I'm no historian of fictional histories (is that still a historian?) but I know that Tevinter didn't fall from Andraste's glorious freedom fighting rebellion. Yet they still adopted to the Chantry and the Circles. Albeit their take on those things is vastly different than other nations in Thedas, the whole Black Divine and all.

So that tells me the mages were VASTLY outnumbered by Andrastians. Even though they killed her and likely stopped the rebellion dead in its tracks they saw that they had to appease a large massive group of people. So the Chantry and its followers were strong enough to make the powerful Tevinter Magisters have to appease them, even if it was in a half measure.

I imagine those not in Tevinter found themselves forced to go into the Circle or die. As the Circle was formed by the Chantry.

Now why did existing mages fall in line? I'm sure being surrounded by people with pitchforks and torches is a good reason to get in a tower of thick stone to keep the pitchforks and torches at bay. And those who didn't stayed apostates or were murdered by Templars.

There was also an Inquisition period where, as the name suggests, things got grim for those suspected of being mages.

[TEWR]

The Mages lodged a peaceful protest in the Grand Cathedral of Orlais because all they were allowed to use their magic for were menial tasks. Anything else was strictly forbidden.

Essentially, they were magical servants at best and slaves to the Chantry at worst -- and still are really, but at least now they know how to fight.

The Divine of the time was so infuriated by this peaceful protest that she ordered an Exalted March upon the Mages inside the Cathedral. Her Templars however tried to talk her out of it and ultimately succeeded, though the jury's still out on what they were trying to save: the lives of the Mages or the Grand Cathedral -- built by Emperor Kordillius Drakon I of Orlais -- that took years to build.

[dragonflight288]

The Circle was designed as a compromise. Instead of being relegated to lighting candles, the mages were to be given a place where they could study magic as much as they wanted, under the templar supervision. Technically, the Circles are supposed to be independent, and the Templar order is meant merely to advise and deal with rogue mages. In practice however......

[Plaintiff]

Because most mages are reasonable people who, while uhappy with their current circumstances, didn't want a new Tevinter anymore than the rest of the population. They thought the Chantry and Templars could be reasoned with, and at the time the Circle system seemed like a better compromise than what they had going.

Basically, they were shortsighted and gullible.

[caradoc2000]

It was the will of the Maker. Why would they oppose a god?

[David Gaider]

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 septembre 2012 - 01:39 .

[Xilizhra]

A shame, then, that the deal was so poisoned. Lucky that we can undo that come DA3, hm?

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

... I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Isn't that always the way of things? /sigh

While I'm not surprised about any of that, it's always nice to read official lore stuff!

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 septembre 2012 - 03:28 .

[Silfren]

David Gaider wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

How does this jive with the aforementioned History of the Circle codex that indicates the mages went "cheerily into exile" after a standoff within the cathedral of Val Royeaux?  This sounds like it was almost a peaceful solution that the mages originally agreed to, rather than being forced into it.

[dragonflight288]

David Gaider wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Thanks.

[MisterJB]

The centuries of peace possible only thanks to the Circle have caused the mages to forget how dangerous magic is. Now, they can see nothing beyond these perceived "injustices" and their own sense of entitlement.
This project of vanity, this "rebellion", will bring nothing but chaos to Thedas.

And yes, that was my not so subtle way of showing to Mr. Gaider that some fans are Pro-Templar and hope to see the side they support well represented in DA3. DA2 failed in this regard most of the time.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

A shame, then, that the deal was so poisoned. Lucky that we can undo that come DA3, hm?

Assuming the developers allow our protagonist to have a genuine choice in the matter.

The historical Aldenon the Wise opposed the slavery of the Chantry. My Surana Warden told Wynne it was a "prison" and an "oppressive place." Anders told my apostate Hawke that he was the leader who mages have been waiting centuries for. I would want to fight for the mages in the next installment; emancipating themselves from slavery was the right choice, in my humble opinion.

Silfren wrote...

How does this jive with the aforementioned History of the Circle codex that indicates the mages went "cheerily into exile" after a standoff within the cathedral of Val Royeaux?  This sounds like it was almost a peaceful solution that the mages originally agreed to, rather than being forced into it.

I think it's likely the inception of the Circle Towers, rather than the Circles of Magi.

The History of the Circle is written from the perspective of a Chantry scholar. I doubt mages would have easily accepted a life of servitude to the Chantry.

[The Night Haunter]

Silfren wrote...

How does this jive with the aforementioned History of the Circle codex that indicates the mages went "cheerily into exile" after a standoff within the cathedral of Val Royeaux?  This sounds like it was almost a peaceful solution that the mages originally agreed to, rather than being forced into it.

That standoff occured AFTER the Circles had organized (Not into individual Circles, but mages were already under control of the Chantry, reread the codex). This lead to isolated Circle's being instituted (I.E. the Ferelden Circle being in the middle of the country rather than in Denerim).

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The centuries of peace possible only thanks to the Circle have caused the mages to forget how dangerous magic is. Now, they can see nothing beyond these perceived "injustices" and their own sense of entitlement.
This project of vanity, this "rebellion", will bring nothing but chaos to Thedas.

And yes, that was my not so subtle way of showing to Mr. Gaider that some fans are Pro-Templar and hope to see the side they support well represented in DA3. DA2 failed in this regard most of the time.

Making mage antagonists into one-dimensional caricatures who never made any sense failed to provide any depth to the dichotomy between mages and templars. If Decimus thinking Merrill is a templar or Quentin murdering Leandra because she's the identical twin of Quentin's late wife (a plot right out of a soap opera) are supposed to sway me, then the writers failed miserably.

[CrimsonZephyr]

David Gaider wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Why not just kill the mages and be done with it? It must be costly to feed, clothe, and educate individuals that nine tenths of the population hate on principle anyway?

[LobselVith8]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why not just kill the mages and be done with it? It must be costly to feed, clothe, and educate individuals that nine tenths of the population hate on principle anyway?

Because it means the mages across the continent now operate under the auspices of the Chantry.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 septembre 2012 - 09:40 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Making mage antagonists into one-dimensional caricatures who never made any sense failed to provide any depth to the dichotomy between mages and templars. If Decimus thinking Merrill is a templar or Quentin murdering Leandra because she's the identical twin of Quentin's late wife (a plot right out of a soap opera) are supposed to sway me, then the writers failed miserably.

I don't disagree. But the faults in the portrayal of antagonist mages do not excuse those commited in portraying templars.

Ser Alrik is so ridiculously over the top all he needed was a perfectly squared mustache and the final Pro-Templar choice involved slaugthering those who we know for a fact did not commit acts of terrorism. That is not much of a choice.
How about a Pro-Templar choice where Hawke remains adamant regarding the necessity of the Circle but also acknowledges that Templars are supposed to protect mages as well and, with this in mind, he convinces some templars like Cullen and Carver to abandon Meredith. In the final battle, Hawke would protect mages like Bethany and Orsino from Meredith's templars as well as angry mobs of Kirkwall citizens but also battle mages who wanted to take advantage of the chaos to gain power.
That would be a Pro-Templar final choice I could support.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Fiacre]

The thing about Alrik, Karras and to some extent Meredith, is that your "Power corrupts" argument against mages works for them as well. As it is Templars have more or less absolute power over mages, and that's what makes Alriks (who admittedly was portrayed rather over the top. (The tranquil solution and especially the voice acting were a bit too much), and Karras' happen. (Meredith I'm somewhat unsure about because of the idol sword.)

[MisterJB]

That is true and I would be genuinelly surprised if templars like Karras did not exist. But I can't believe anyone can take Alrik seriously. His Final Solution (subtle) is not even born out a misguided idealism, which could actually make it work. Alrik could showcase how fear of magic can create monsters just as demonic as the Magisters if he actually believed Tranquility was the way to truly protect the world from magic. Theda's Amon.
But no, he just wants some sex toys. Missed opportunity right here.

I think Meredith was done rather well until that convenient plot device came into play. Her past experience with mages clearly lead her into paranoia but she actually presents some very good points and has some of the best lines in the game "Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms...If you can't tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant."
Had the final choice been less biased, I could have actually followed Meredith. But then the Idol hits and a great character is reduced to hopping around the square, wielding a lightsaber.
Bioware has a track of ruining morally ambiguous quasi-antagonists. The same thing happened to the Illusive Man.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Gallimatia]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why not just kill the mages and be done with it? It must be costly to feed, clothe, and educate individuals that nine tenths of the population hate on principle anyway?

Because mages are useful when fighting darkspawn, qunari and Tevinter. The darkspawn will never agree to kill their emissaries (don't think they even have problems with abominations) and a one sided decommission would be foolish. Even if you could get the qunari to agree they are superior in regular combat and inferior at magic.

Mages are useful in other ways too. It seems to me the Circle is so focused on isolating the mages it neglects to make use of their servitude. Anders did a lot of good in Kirkwall in Act 1 and 2. That militia that will even attack Hawke to protect him comes to mind.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

That is true and I would be genuinelly surprised if templars like Karras did not exist. But I can't believe anyone can take Alrik seriously. His Final Solution (subtle) is not even born out a misguided idealism, which could actually make it work. Alrik could showcase how fear of magic can create monsters just as demonic as the Magisters if he actually believed Tranquility was the way to truly protect the world from magic. Theda's Amon.
But no, he just wants some sex toys. Missed opportunity right here.

I think Meredith was done rather well until that convenient plot device came into play. Her past experience with mages clearly lead her into paranoia but she actually presents some very good points and has some of the best lines in the game "Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms...If you can't tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant."
Had the final choice been less biased, I could have actually followed Meredith. But then the Idol hits and a great character is reduced to hopping around the square, wielding a lightsaber.
Bioware has a track of ruining morally ambiguous quasi-antagonists. The same thing happened to the Illusive Man.

I think Alriks can exist, too (people can be so absolutely horrible to each other it's sickening), but I find your idea more compelling for an antagonist. That might have been interesting, if they'd also exanded Karras' role a bit to highlight that problem (as it is it's kind of easy to miss).

And Meredith would have been more interesting without the idol, I agree. Bat**** insane beacuse of <insert plot device> rarely makes for interesting antagonists. And while the final battle s fun to ight, I absolutely cannot take it seriously. At all.

(Out of curiousity, how do you get her back story? She's never told me about it in either of my playthroughs.)

Modifié par Fiacre, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[Sylvianus]

Indeed. Meredith had great potential to be a great character. I liked her background in any case.

I didn't like the fact that Meredith seemed crazy and irrational just before the most important choice in the end of the game. ( to me ) Franckly after what did Anders, she could easily have convinced many players. But the way she acted for me was infortunately too much to be at her side despite I didn't support the mages. That's what I regret. I was ready to choose the templars, I just needed something rational that helps me to kill thousands victims. But the only thing I saw was a woman who had found an excuse to kill everyone (so little to do with the terrorist act) or had become a paranoid crank.

For me it wasn't really a choice, not many folks no matter what they think want to follow someone that seems crazy except if we like playing a bad guy. ( rp )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:35 .

[MisterJB]

If you side with her during her argument with Orsino in the beginning of Act 3, it is Meredith who gives you the Main Quests and Hawke has the opportunity to ask her about her past. Her younger sister was born a mage and their parents hid her from the Templars. One day, she was possessed and killed her entire family besides Meredith. The Templars slew her eventually but not before she killed other 70 people.

This is a believable backstory that explains her extreme views towards mages. Magic is truly dangerous, that's a fact.