146 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Demons summoned by mages, certainly.

Or spontaneous possessions.

You're assuming a lot. Crushing a dangerous rebellion doesn't equal genocide.
And you're also assuming the number of templars who left the Chantry are in the majority when we don't even know if Lambert is alive.

All fifteen Knight-Commanders agreed with the departure. And to be frank, I believe a lot of Chantry priests will be behind them. I doubt Justinia will have many friends left at all.

Then maybe we should be unable to side with mages since so many of them were hostile or downright "evil" in DA2. DA2, where the Templar Order of Kirkwall rose against its own Knight Commander when her insanity was clear due to an idiotic plot device...I mean, a Lyrium Idol and she abused her power.

We were, in fact, forced into opposition against every hostile mage in the game. In any case, the templars didn't rise against Meredith, she turned on them.

Asunder: Where the mages started a rebellion incited by the terrorist and murderous acts of two mages and where the Templars leave the Chantry incited by one Seeker.

If there are certain moments where the plot is biased in favor of mages, these are faults within the story and should be denounced as such, not glorified.

Golden mean again. The narrative, I believe, is how the templars will be portrayed in the future, and how they've always been throughout the entire series.

I wasn't wrong about Cerberus. Bioware just threw plot and character coherence out of the window to provide minions for Shepard to shoot at which greatly affected the quality of ME3.
There is a reason the Genophage arc is considered to be vastly superior by many.

In World of Warcraft, the character of Garrosh Hellscream is one that who did, in fact, have his story arc altered due to overwhelming fan negativity about his character. Cerberus did not have this, at least not in the same magnitude, and I don't believe for a minute that they were ever intended to be anything other than truly villainous. Sanctuary is the perfect summation of everything Cerberus is and existed to be.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Or spontaneous possessions.

Another example of how dangerous mages are.

All fifteen Knight-Commanders agreed with the departure. And to be frank, I believe a lot of Chantry priests will be behind them. I doubt Justinia will have many friends left at all.

All fiftenn Knight-Commanders didn't have the courage to speak up. That doesn't mean they are all going to order their templars to murder mages rather than bring them to the Circle. Lambert declared the Seekers independent as well but many have remained with the Chantry.
Some priests will, others won't. The mages went to war because of one vote.

We were, in fact, forced into opposition against every hostile mage in the game. In any case, the templars didn't rise against Meredith, she turned on them.

And now I think that should continue into DA3 because that is how I believe mages have been portrayed throughout the series.

Cullen relieved her of her duty before she tought they were controlled by Blood Magic(due to a ridiculous plot device) and before him there was Thrask.

Golden mean again. The narrative, I believe, is how the templars will be portrayed in the future, and how they've always been throughout the entire series.

And again, for there to be a fallacy, you would have to objectivelly prove the templars are 100% wrong or that a compromise is undesirable. This particular argument is based on your own notions of morality as well as interpretation of the series both of which I disagree with.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

I'll admit there was a single time in the two Dragon Age games when I didn't feel like killing a loyalist Templar: when Wynne told the story about how a bunch of Templars rescued her from an anrgry mob and took her to the Circle. At that moment I felt like I almost understood Templars.

But apparently they've forgotten that part of their duty. Until they remember that if an angry mob descends on an innocent mage their job is to slaughter the mob and leave the mage be, there is no reason to put in an option to side with them.

[EricHVela]

David Gaider wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

I'm looking at the rough draft of a codex entry. Right?

[EricHVela]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'll admit there was a single time in the two Dragon Age games when I didn't feel like killing a loyalist Templar: when Wynne told the story about how a bunch of Templars rescued her from an anrgry mob and took her to the Circle. At that moment I felt like I almost understood Templars.

But apparently they've forgotten that part of their duty. Until they remember that if an angry mob descends on an innocent mage their job is to slaughter the mob and leave the mage be, there is no reason to put in an option to side with them.

One Templar in the second Dragon Age felt that the Templars lost their way. Another from both Dragon Age games started to have doubts of his own thanks to Meredith.

I foresee a schism in the Templars. (Granted that this is coming from someone who can't remember what he had for breakfast much less see the future.)

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Making mage antagonists into one-dimensional caricatures who never made any sense failed to provide any depth to the dichotomy between mages and templars. If Decimus thinking Merrill is a templar or Quentin murdering Leandra because she's the identical twin of Quentin's late wife (a plot right out of a soap opera) are supposed to sway me, then the writers failed miserably.

I don't disagree. But the faults in the portrayal of antagonist mages do not excuse those commited in portraying templars.

Both sides could have been portrayed better in the narrative. While the pro-mage and pro-templar groups may not agree, it's a philosophical disagreement over how to handle mages that divides them, and Dragon Age II failed miserably to portray that accurately by making both groups into asinine cartoons.

MisterJB wrote...

Ser Alrik is so ridiculously over the top all he needed was a perfectly squared mustache and the final Pro-Templar choice involved slaugthering those who we know for a fact did not commit acts of terrorism. That is not much of a choice.

Mage and templar antagonists were certainly over the top.

MisterJB wrote...

How about a Pro-Templar choice where Hawke remains adamant regarding the necessity of the Circle but also acknowledges that Templars are supposed to protect mages as well and, with this in mind, he convinces some templars like Cullen and Carver to abandon Meredith. In the final battle, Hawke would protect mages like Bethany and Orsino from Meredith's templars as well as angry mobs of Kirkwall citizens but also battle mages who wanted to take advantage of the chaos to gain power.
That would be a Pro-Templar final choice I could support.

The choice Meredith invoked had nothing to do with agreeing with either the mages or the templars; that was another failure for the developers.

[El Mito]

RinjiRenee wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
We all know that you support simplistic, two dimensional writing, Xilizhra. Certain games, like The Witcher 2, have been perfectly capable of writing two different stories that respond to the players actions.
That is the standart Bioware should be held to. Not DA2 or the complete nonsense Cerberus was in ME3.

Any time someone says Dragon Age needs to be more like Witcher 2, God kills a puppy.

Stop.  For the sake of puppies.

Also stop inflating Witcher 2's features and story.   Geralt is perhaps the worst protagonist I've encountered in a long, long time, and the "story" might be appealing to 15 year old boys at best.

And yet, Geralt was still a 10x better protagonist than Hawke. If Witcher 2's story is for 15 year olds, then DA2's story is appropriate for toddlers. Jesus Christ.

[IllusiveManJr]

David Gaider wrote...

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I never understood why the Circle submitted themselves to the Chantry in the first place.

There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Thanks for the quick answer Mr. Gaider.

That makes much more sense now. I was picturing the Circle of Magi as being created by the mages long before the Chantry. It's much more clearer now.

Cheers, .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Meredith descended into paranoia due in great part to the Idol but that would not lead to her inventing a backstory for herself. She just sees blood magic everywhere.

She invented a backstory for Hawke. If she was willing to do it for Hawke -- saying that he planned everything that happened -- I can see her inventing one for herself.

It's possible that it did happen. That's all I'm saying.

What is really questionable is just how paranoid she actually is. Orsino was actually protecting at least one blood mage thus, endangering the city.

Because had he gone to the Templars, they would've used the fact that he was in contact with someone he was friends with from Starkhaven's Circle -- but didn't know he was a blood mage when they were conversing by letter -- as evidence for the Mages to be oppressed further, possibly even Annulled. If that threat wasn't the more possible scenario, he would've certainly gone to the Templars like Thrask, Emeric, or Cullen. But they weren't in positions of authority. Cullen was the Knight-Captain, but even his authority was limited.

He was protecting a Mage that happened to be a blood mage, something he was unaware of until it became apparent by Quentin sending Orsino detailed research on blood magic rituals.

As I've said before though, we don't know if Orsino wasn't trying to take down Quentin on his own. Without the Templars, certainly. But given how he's in Kirkwall proper during the Qunari uprising with a contingent of mages -- and his purpose for being there is never told -- it can be assumed that he may have been trying to take down Quentin on his own with what limited freedom he had.

He was too late, obviously, given how Hawke already killed Quentin. But hey, he might've been doing such a thing.

Besides, everything that happened with Quentin can automatically be laid at the feet of the Templars. It's entirely their fault that Quentin went as far as he did, something Cullen had the brains to admit if you talk to him after Leandra's death.

MisterJB wrote...

Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms

I really wanted to point out how the entire Quentin issue was her and her Templars' fault to her. But I can't. The best I can say is "Leave my mother out of this" or the snarky "Want to stab me in the back too?" remark.

MisterJB wrote...

But idealism also saves lives. Maybe locking all mages is unjust and yet, how many lives, both mage and mundane, have been saved exactly because of the Circle system.

Not many if the Circle system is actually creating Abominations and broken Mages, as we see in Kirkwall. You can't deliberately push a group of people into desperation, and then use those acts of desperation as grounds to further oppress the rest of the Mages.

Xilizhra wrote...

All fifteen Knight-Commanders agreed with the departure. And to be frank, I believe a lot of Chantry priests will be behind them. I doubt Justinia will have many friends left at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there more then fifteen Circles in Thedas, outside of the Tevinter Imperium? I know the Circle of Dairsmuid was Annulled, but that only means the Mages were killed, not the KC of that Circle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 septembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[MisterJB]

The
Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She invented a backstory for Hawke. If she was willing to do it for Hawke --
saying that he planned everything that happened -- I can see her inventing one
for herself.



It's possible that it did happen. That's all I'm saying.

Come on, that is a huge stretch. You are smarter than this.

Coming up with a theory to justify the actions of someone you don't trust and
who was, conveniently, involved in all noteworthy situations that had happened
in Kirkwall in the last seven years is completely different from inventing a
backstory for yourself and actually believing it.

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

Because had he gone to the Templars, they would've used the fact that he was in
contact with someone he was friends with from Starkhaven's Circle -- but didn't
know he was a blood mage when they were conversing by letter -- as evidence for
the Mages to be oppressed further, possibly even Annulled. If that threat
wasn't the more possible scenario, he would've certainly gone to the Templars
like Thrask, Emeric, or Cullen. But they weren't in positions of authority.
Cullen was the Knight-Captain, but even his authority was limited.

Or some Templars, maybe even Meredith herself, would have started to look to
Orsino as an ally against blood mages.

I admit that there were good reasons to be cautious when dealing with Meredith
but mages are capable of being just as prejudiced as templars. Neither side was
willing to cooperate.

He was protecting a Mage that happened to be a blood mage, something he
was unaware of until it became apparent by Quentin sending Orsino detailed
research on blood magic rituals.

And that was when he should have gone to the templars.

As I've said before though, we don't know if Orsino wasn't trying to
take down Quentin on his own. Without the Templars, certainly. But given how
he's in Kirkwall proper during the Qunari uprising with a contingent of mages
-- and his purpose for being there is never told -- it can be assumed that he
may have been trying to take down Quentin on his own with what limited freedom
he had.



He was too late, obviously, given how Hawke already killed Quentin. But hey, he
might've been doing such a thing.

You’re
really stretching it today. There is nothing relating Orsino’s walk into town
with Quentin.

Since there
are qunari attacking the city, it is safe to assume he was trying to defend it.

Besides, everything that happened with Quentin can automatically be laid
at the feet of the Templars. It's entirely their fault that Quentin went as far
as he did, something Cullen had the brains to admit if you talk to him after
Leandra's death.

What Cullen
says is that the templars should have apprehended Quentin before he killed
which could have been possible had Orsino informed them of his existence.

Quentin was
not being hunted, he was not staging some “glorious rebellion”. He killed
because he could not accept the death of his wife, because he had the means,
magic, to do something and because Orsino covered for him.

This is
their fault, not the templars.

Not many if the Circle system is actually creating Abominations and
broken Mages, as we see in Kirkwall. You can't deliberately push a group
of people into desperation, and then use those acts of desperation as grounds
to further oppress the rest of the Mages.

What came
first, the phoenix or the flame?

The Circle
of Kirkwall was harsh but the city was also threatened by mages like Quentin
and Tahrone which were more common there than in most of Andrastian Thedas dues to the Veil being ridiculously thin in the city not to mention Corypheus' possible influence.


Regardless,
the failures of one Circle do not rend the entire system worthless. The Circle
provides mages with knowledge and protection while also protecting mundanes due
to its isolation and the quickness of templar response.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 septembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Xilizhra]

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

Total insanity, the kind that can clearly be induced by the sword?

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

Total insanity, the kind that can clearly be induced by the sword?

The sword only seemed the amplify Meredith's existing feelings of suspicion to an irrational level, much as it enhanced Bartrand's greed.

[Xilizhra]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

Total insanity, the kind that can clearly be induced by the sword?

The sword only seemed the amplify Meredith's existing feelings of suspicion to an irrational level, much as it enhanced Bartrand's greed.

And also led to him chopping pieces off of servants so that they could hear the song? And even before he lost the idol, he was going steadily crazier in unspecified ways. Finally, Meredith's suspicion of mages could easily be amplified to the point where her memories started warping. Memory is rather malleable, and can be altered via suggestion even from non-supernatural sources.

[MisterJB]

The red lyrium has been known to increase paranoia and obsession in a person. Claiming that it could lead to Meredith inventing a different backstory without anyone even noticing it is a stretch.
Her backstory is credible, untrained mages will be more prone to possession and abominations are dangerous.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

The red lyrium has been known to increase paranoia and obsession in a person. Claiming that it could lead to Meredith inventing a different backstory without anyone even noticing it is a stretch.
Her backstory is credible, untrained mages will be more prone to possession and abominations are dangerous.

See above. Memory can be altered through suggestion even from non-supernatural sources. And the credibility of her backstory only makes her less likely to question her memories shifting.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

Total insanity, the kind that can clearly be induced by the sword?

The sword only seemed the amplify Meredith's existing feelings of suspicion to an irrational level, much as it enhanced Bartrand's greed.

And also led to him chopping pieces off of servants so that they could hear the song? And even before he lost the idol, he was going steadily crazier in unspecified ways. Finally, Meredith's suspicion of mages could easily be amplified to the point where her memories started warping. Memory is rather malleable, and can be altered via suggestion even from non-supernatural sources.

I always attributed Bartrand's more extreme behaviors to a sort of withdrawal from the red lyrium's effects.

At any rate, there is no instance that we know of when the idol caused altered memories.

[Xilizhra]

We only have two instances of the idol period, and never heard anything of Bartrand's backstory being told by him after he got hit with it, so there's no point of comparison. The theory remains possible.

[MisterJB]

I don't see the point of questioning the veracity Meredith's backstory when the game doesn't ever suggest it might be untrue. The purpose of it was to show how templars have good reasons for joining the Order.
Even if Meredith was wrong, which I don't believe she is, children mages being possessed and killing dozens of people have been known to happen.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

I don't see the point of questioning the veracity Meredith's backstory when the game doesn't ever suggest it might be untrue. The purpose of it was to show how templars have good reasons for joining the Order.
Even if Meredith was wrong, which I don't believe she is, children mages being possessed and killing dozens of people have been known to happen.

The purpose was to show that templars think they have good reasons for joining the Order. I thought you were against declarative morality like that.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

We only have two instances of the idol period, and never heard anything of Bartrand's backstory being told by him after he got hit with it, so there's no point of comparison. The theory remains possible.

Possible.

It's also possible that Varric lied and nothing in Dragon Age 2 happened the way it did happen.  There being no direct evidence to contradict it does not make it any more plausible than what Meredith told us actually being true.  That it was never even remotely hinted at being untrue, does not favor the notion.

[MisterJB]

Magic is dangerous, that is a fact and a good reason for joining the Order. Whether or not Meredith's family suffered because of magic is irrelevant to this.

[Xilizhra]

There is no good reason to join the Order; it's a tainted and evil organization, and it's long past the time for it to be torn out root and branch. Luckily, it aided us in this by betraying the Chantry of its own accord.

[MisterJB]

So you keep saying but that is still merely your opinion.

[Xilizhra]

As is everything you say your opinion. As is everything here.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Magic is dangerous, that is a fact and a good reason for joining the Order.

Oppressing mages under the boot of the Chantry and the templars is the reason why mages struggled against their shackles, and emancipated themselves from nearly a millennia of a system condemned by Aldenon the Wise, (pro-mage) Hawke, and Anders as slavery.