146 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Opressing mundanes under the boot of the Magisters for millennia, abominations destroying entire villages and magical incidents from those who can't control their powers are the reason why the Chantry and the Templars struggle against the dangers of magic that threaten mundanes and created solutions to equalize the battlefield.

Aldenon and Anders are both mages and Hawke is the avatar of players who never actually had to deal with magic. They are biased.

[Xilizhra]

Isabela and Grey Warden Carver are also enthusiastic supporters of the mage cause come the final battle.

And the templars are "struggling" (My Struggling, I daresay) so in a hideously evil way.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Come on, that is a huge stretch. You are smarter than this.

Coming up with a theory to justify the actions of someone you don't trust and
who was, conveniently, involved in all noteworthy situations that had happened
in Kirkwall in the last seven years is completely different from inventing a
backstory for yourself and actually believing it.

One is paranoia, the other...I don't even know.

It's not such a stretch. Remember, Meredith was in possession of a broken idol, which is more potent then when it was intact -- when Bartrand had it.

When it was intact, all it really did was amplify existing negative traits in a person and make people hear voices.

When Bartrand broke it, its powers were cranked up to 11, and the absence of the idol drove Bartrand to start mutilating people and torturing them -- something that Varric says he thinks is due to the idol bringing out something not even Bartrand knew was there.

Given all that, the broken idol actually causing insanity and making a person fervently believe something that never happened -- as IIRC some mental disorders in our world can do -- isn't such a stretch. It's broken, its powers are now far more dangerous then when it was intact, and as of right now we know very little about red lyrium -- much less idols made from it.

Really, my underlying point wasn't that the story shouldn't be believed, but given how the idol is present at all times with Meredith in Act 3 it weakens the credibility of the story because almost everything regarding Meredith falls back to "It's the idol's fault" -- itself resulting from Bioware's horrific method of integrating it into the story, when in fact it could've added to Meredith's characterization had it been done right.

Or some Templars, maybe even Meredith herself, would have started to look to Orsino as an ally against blood mages.

Doubtful. When Meredith took control of the Templars, she immediately changed Kirkwall's policies towards the mages and instituted anti-mage policies and enforced existing ones to the point of oppression.

Thrask tells us that Meredith changed how Kirkwall was before her. Not that she just simply enforced already existing ideas fervently, but that she actually started Kirkwall's Templars down its anti-mage path. At least, more then it was during the years prior.

We know Meredith became Knight-Commander in 9:21 Dragon. We also know that Orsino was First Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon, possibly the year he became such. Finally, the codex we receive on Orsino is acquired in 9:34 Dragon, during the Qunari uprising. In it, it says that for the last five years Orsino has been very vocal against Meredith's recent measures, telling us that the disputes -- and I'll admit maybe even the changes towards Mage treatment -- began in 9:29 Dragon.

Now, I could see Cullen maybe working with Orsino, but given how the Templars are a military order Cullen would be duty bound to relay all information acquired to Meredith, who would then call for the Annulment -- remember, she acquired the broken idol in Act 2 from Bartrand.

I can definitely see Orsino working with Thrask though.

I admit that there were good reasons to be cautious when dealing with Meredith
but mages are capable of being just as prejudiced as templars. Neither side was
willing to cooperate.

The Mages were willing to cooperate, but the Order was far too much composed of people like Karras, Alrik, and Meredith and not enough people like Thrask, Emeric, Keran, and arguably Cullen.

Remember, the rebellion against Meredith and her like-minded cronies -- not against the Circle or the Chantry -- was begun by Thrask and had Mages and Templars working together, and was destroyed entirely by plot stupidity -- on a pro-Mage path anyway. For a pro-Templar path, it makes a modicum of sense.

You’re really stretching it today. There is nothing relating Orsino’s walk into town
with Quentin.

Since there are qunari attacking the city, it is safe to assume he was trying to defend it.

That'd be applicable if he showed up after the assault on the city. But he's seen during the assault, indicating that he and his mages were there for other reasons unrelated to the Qunari assault.

This is
their fault, not the templars.

You misunderstand, I think. I am not saying Quentin going insane is the result of the Templars' actions -- though depending on how Starkhaven treated his marriage, those Templars there may have contributed to it. I'm saying the reason Quentin went as far as he did is due to the Templars' inaction.

1) The phylactery of Mharen led to a Foundry.

2) Said foundry had a man, in robes, with a staff on his back and balding grey hair leaving.

3) It isn't until Hawke steps foot into the foundry proper -- after the man has left the scene -- that Demons and Shades show up. Fenris will even state that they were no doubt summoned by a Mage.

4) Hawke reports on this to Emeric, telling him that Demons were in the Foundry.

5) The thin Veil in Kirkwall isn't common knowledge, as not even Elthina was aware of how thin the Veil was until Sebastian's family's murder was revealed to have been the work of a powerful Desire Demon.

6) Both Mharen and Ninette were sent white lilies, something Jethann never mentions he had anything to do with.

In all of Act 1, the only time Demons are seen outside of the Expedition is when something grave is afoot in Kirkwall.

By default, the Templars should've secured the Foundry -- with support from the City Guard -- because it was the site of suspicious activity where Demons were fought and a man -- be he a witness or the perpetrator -- was seen fleeing from the scene of the crime.

The Templars don't need any more information to be able to do their job. Act 1 alone set up the groundwork for them to do it. But instead they left Emeric to do it all on his own, believing he was chasing one last shot at glory. It isn't until he winds up dead that they bother to realize "Oh crap, Demons are in the city! And a mage did all this!".

Never mind how once Gascard is confronted -- with Aveline possibly there -- Hawke is unable to relay what he's learned about the killer to the Templars, both before and after Emeric's death.

Really, the whole Quentin arc just screams how the City Guard and the Templars are incompetent at actually doing their jobs, even with Aveline the supposed "Captain that makes the Guards awesome" among the former.

What came first, the phoenix or the flame?

The Circle of Kirkwall was harsh but the city was also threatened by mages like Quentin and Tahrone which were more common there than in most of Andrastian Thedas dues to the Veil being ridiculously thin in the city not to mention Corypheus' possible influence.

First, as is made apparent a few times Kirkwall was a better place prior to Meredith's institution as Knight-Commander. From Thrask's words, it can be inferred that the Mages and the Templars did in fact work together before she became the head honcho.

Second, Corypheus can only influence beings that bear the Taint. The Wardens, the Darkspawn, and the Carta all have one thing in common: they're tainted. Janeka was manipulated by Corypheus into going to the Carta and getting them to become tainted, where Corypheus could then influence them. The Darkspawn are instinctively drawn to Corypheus to help free him, and Larius states that only beings that bear the Taint can hear him.

So those speculations on Kirkwall penned by some in-game author have no bearing on Kirkwall's thin Veil.

Regardless, the failures of one Circle do not rend the entire system worthless. The Circle provides mages with knowledge and protection while also protecting mundanes due to its isolation and the quickness of templar response.

The Circle isn't the only bastion of arcane knowledge. The Dalish Mages are well trained in how to handle their magic, as are presumably the Chasind Shamans, the Rivaini Seers, and the other mages in other cultures.

Tevinter makes it a point to train all mages, IIRC. Most end up enslaved, but they are trained in the Circles. Haven, for all of its moral bankruptcy, survived hundreds of years with Mages living alongside one another -- indicating that they have their own methods.

The education the Circle provides however is necessary. I've never denied that. It could stand to be reformed a bit -- as could the whole institution, another thing I've never denied -- but it's hardly the only place a Mage can learn their arcane arts.

Still, there isn't any reason the Mages can't have limited freedoms. Marriage, raising families, etc. If they had limited freedom, then I'm sure many would be content.

You'll always have the malcontents, but you don't punish the many for the actions of the few, especially when the many are not like the few until you make them such by... well... treating them as such.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 septembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[LobselVith8]

The Chantry is Tevinter 2.0. They enslaved mages, sacked the Dales, outlawed the elven religion and coerced the elves to convert, their armies destroyed civilians in cities because they converted to the Qun, and their Chantry controlled Circles have lead to mages getting abused, raped, made tranquil, and murdered. The dangers of the Chantry and the templars exist.

Aldenon the Wise wanted to create a nation of equals; Hawke knows about magic first-hand; Anders grew up in the Chantry controlled Circles, and lost his first love to a templar who had crossed the line. They are informed.

[Xilizhra]

I applaud those others of the mage vanguard who can hold a more coherent argument together than I can. I admit my patience frays after the debate repeats long enough.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Isabela and Grey Warden Carver are also enthusiastic supporters of the mage cause come the final battle.

As is Sebastian, arguably. He admits that it isn't right, what's currently being done to them -- the RoA -- and will gladly fight beside the Mages.

And Fenris will even fight with the Mages. IIRC, Hawke can tell him it's the right thing to do and I think he admits that it is, if friended. I can't remember.

The only people who aren't really supporters of the Mage cause in Kirkwall are Varric and maybe Aveline. But Varric eventually changes his tune, based on how he ends his speech to Cassandra, where Hawke defended many innocents from a brutal injustice.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Isabela and Grey Warden Carver are also enthusiastic supporters of the mage cause come the final battle.

As is Sebastian, arguably. He admits that it isn't right, what's currently being done to them -- the RoA -- and will gladly fight beside the Mages.

And Fenris will even fight with the Mages. IIRC, Hawke can tell him it's the right thing to do and I think he admits that it is, if friended. I can't remember.

The only people who aren't really supporters of the Mage cause in Kirkwall are Varric and maybe Aveline. But Varric eventually changes his tune, based on how he ends his speech to Cassandra, where Hawke defended many innocents from a brutal injustice.

All the others are more easily led, though. Isabela and Carver are the only ones I remember (who aren't themselves mages) who actually chew Hawke out for doing so.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I applaud those others of the mage vanguard who can hold a more coherent argument together than I can. I admit my patience frays after the debate repeats long enough.

It's hard to remain coherent for me, because I tend to ramble incessantly and it causes some slight pain in my hands. Nothing major, but it impairs how well I form sentences in the process so I end up taking breaks.

Then like you, sometimes I will lose my patience. It's rare though, as I try to keep myself calm, cool, and collected.

I'm more a moderate though. I support what the Order embodies, but not so much the Order itself because of what it's become.

Essentially, I'm Thrask. Minus the whole Grace instance.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry is Tevinter 2.0. They enslaved mages, sacked the Dales, outlawed the elven religion and coerced the elves to convert, their armies destroyed civilians in cities because they converted to the Qun, and their Chantry controlled Circles have lead to mages getting abused, raped, made tranquil, and murdered. The dangers of the Chantry and the templars exist.

I was actually about to say this myself, an echo of me having said it before. The similarities I would've brought up would've been less then you did, but they are there.

1) Both the Chantry and the Imperium in its prime are/were the dominant religions in Thedas, respectively.
2) The Orlesian Empire -- the seat of the Chantry -- and the Imperium in its prime cover the most ground in Thedas.

I had a third, but I forgot it. Essentially, you said what I wanted to say.

[Xilizhra]

Essentially, I'm Thrask. Minus the whole Grace instance.

I'm closer to Adrian; it's not quite in me to bomb buildings, but I have no real objection to a politically advantageous mercy kill. And the casting down and destruction of the Templar Order.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Magic is dangerous, that is a fact and a good reason for joining the Order. Whether or not Meredith's family suffered because of magic is irrelevant to this.

It's entirely relevant. The psychological well-being of a person that suffered a past that traumatizing at a relatively young age and is put into a position of authority over Templars and Mages is important to the well-being of both groups.

If she isn't psychologically sane, she has no business being in the Order, let alone being the Knight-Commander of the Templars in Kirkwall.

Hence why I've said a few times in the past that the Circle needs to institute regular psychological exams on both Templars and Mages -- preferably by either Seekers, or a council of Mages and Templars -- so as to weed out the Quentins/Tarohnes and the Alriks/Karrases/Merediths.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's entirely relevant. The psychological well-being of a person that suffered a past that traumatizing at a relatively young age and is put into a position of authority over Templars and Mages is important to the well-being of both groups.

If she isn't psychologically sane, she has no business being in the Order, let alone being the Knight-Commander of the Templars in Kirkwall.

Hence why I've said a few times in the past that the Circle needs to institute regular psychological exams on both Templars and Mages -- preferably by either Seekers, or a council of Mages and Templars -- so as to weed out the Quentins/Tarohnes and the Alriks/Karrases/Merediths.

I'll have to answer the rest tomorrow since it's late around here but this can be answered in a short response.

You misunderstand. Meredith's psychological state is, of course, relevant to the position she occupies. What I meant was that the veracity of Meredith's story is irrelevant regarding the necessity of templars and the Circle. Even if her family did not suffer due to magic, many others do.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Even if her family did not suffer due to magic, many others do.

And many others have suffered due to the Chantry and the templars, calling the so-called "necessity" of these institutions into question.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry is Tevinter 2.0. They enslaved mages, sacked the Dales, outlawed the elven religion and coerced the elves to convert, their armies destroyed civilians in cities because they converted to the Qun, and their Chantry controlled Circles have lead to mages getting abused, raped, made tranquil, and murdered. The dangers of the Chantry and the templars exist.

You cannot seriously compare the Chantry to the Tevinter Imperium. I don't agree with everything they do, but the Chantry at least believes that they do what they believe to be the best for everyone in a system that is inherently broken. Tevinter's tyranny benefits no one but the magisters.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hence why I've said a few times in the past that the Circle needs to institute regular psychological exams on both Templars and Mages -- preferably by either Seekers, or a council of Mages and Templars -- so as to weed out the Quentins/Tarohnes and the Alriks/Karrases/Merediths.

This isn't modern-day earth. They don't have psychological exams or a particularly good understanding of mental illness, if The Magistrate's Orders are any indication. It's a good idea, but it just can't happen in the context of Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...

And many others have suffered due to the Chantry and the templars, calling the so-called "necessity" of these institutions into question.

Which is worse: the suffering caused by the Chantry or the suffering that would be caused in their absence? I believe the latter outweighs the former.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

This isn't modern-day earth. They don't have psychological exams or a particularly good understanding of mental illness, if The Magistrate's Orders are any indication. It's a good idea, but it just can't happen in the context of Thedas.

They have sanitariums -- as did historical society in our world, though my knowledge of how such places functioned during that time period is minimal at best. Bartrand can be sent to one. Kelder was only kept out of one because Vanard wanted to keep his relationship to his son secret, didn't believe what the Elves were saying, and retain his position, not out of a lack of understanding.

Given how the Mages themselves classify the Demons by the part of the psyche that they embody the most and the presence of sanitariums in Thedas, I'd say Thedas has the beginning foundations to learn psychology, if not more then that.

Besides, even if they don't that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Essentially, I'm Thrask. Minus the whole Grace instance.

I'm closer to Adrian; it's not quite in me to bomb buildings, but I have no real objection to a politically advantageous mercy kill. And the casting down and destruction of the Templar Order.

Adrian was a complete jerkass and lacks the charisma to be a true leader. I mean, everything she says drips with insane evil sorcerer vibes. How she became a First Enchanter is anyone's guess. Rhys should have cut her throat while he had the chance.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They have sanitariums -- as did historical society in our world. Bartrand can be sent to one. Kelder was only kept out of one because Vanard wanted to keep his relationship to his son secret and retain his position, not out of a lack of understanding.

I mentioned The Magistrate's Orders because your companions' reactions to Kelder (ie. a total lack of sympathy) are indicative of what I believe Thedas' attitudes towards mental illness. I killed him not out of justice for his victims, but because there didn't seem to be an alternative and I couldn't abide further murders.

They have sanitariums, but until I hear differently, I can only picture them as something akin to a bedlam house. It might be better to send Bartrand there than to kill him, but I don't view it as a perfect solution.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Adrian was a complete jerkass and lacks the charisma to be a true leader. I mean, everything she says drips with insane evil sorcerer vibes. How she became a First Enchanter is anyone's guess. Rhys should have cut her throat while he had the chance.

Well, the title of First Enchanter is pretty meaningless at that point, as there isn't even a Circle anymore.

But Rhys should have pushed her off the cliff regardless.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...
I'll have to answer the rest tomorrow since it's late around here but this can be answered in a short response.

You misunderstand. Meredith's psychological state is, of course, relevant to the position she occupies. What I meant was that the veracity of Meredith's story is irrelevant regarding the necessity of templars and the Circle. Even if her family did not suffer due to magic, many others do.

You have to question why those families suffer however. Most mage children don't kill/set fire to the barn or whatever when they first start to use magic. Other than in extraordinary cases, it simply isn't possible for the child to be such a powerful mage to be capable of such things straight away.

The problem is that once the child's guardian's discover the child is a mage, most likely through something fairly innocent due to how weak a mage the child is to begin with, the child is treated with hostility and suspicion in most cases. This isn't the fault of the parents; it is simply another method of control employed by the chantry. The parents have been raised with the Chant in their ears all their lives, so they think their child is somehow tainted by magic.

Once the parents start to treat the child with hostility, but don't send them off to the circle, that allows the child to become stronger over time and will also breed resentment in the young mage towards their parents. It doesn't take much from there to see how the child could feel angry towards someone over something, and do something terrible by accident.

If the chantry stopped feeding lies to the general populace of Thedas, and if the circles didn't inspire such dread, and magic was treated in a sensible and adult manner similar to any potentially dangerous thing, then I imagine that nascent mages would cause far less misery and pain.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry is Tevinter 2.0. They enslaved mages, sacked the Dales, outlawed the elven religion and coerced the elves to convert, their armies destroyed civilians in cities because they converted to the Qun, and their Chantry controlled Circles have lead to mages getting abused, raped, made tranquil, and murdered. The dangers of the Chantry and the templars exist.

You cannot seriously compare the Chantry to the Tevinter Imperium. I don't agree with everything they do, but the Chantry at least believes that they do what they believe to be the best for everyone in a system that is inherently broken. Tevinter's tyranny benefits no one but the magisters.

While forcing mages into servitude benefits the Chantry, and strips mages of their basic rights and freedoms to the point where suicide is a valid option for some of them. The comparison is apt.

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And many others have suffered due to the Chantry and the templars, calling the so-called "necessity" of these institutions into question.

Which is worse: the suffering caused by the Chantry or the suffering that would be caused in their absence? I believe the latter outweighs the former.

A continental revolution started because of the number of mages across the continent who disagree with your opinion.

[Fiacre]

LobselVith8 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Which is worse: the suffering caused by the Chantry or the suffering that would be caused in their absence? I believe the latter outweighs the former.

A continental revolution started because of the number of mages across the continent who disagree with your opinion.

Indeed. And I question the logic that just because the Chantry does some good amidst the bad that it couldn't stand reforms or being replaced with an entirely beneficial organization. One should strive for improvement, not keep the bad in fear of losing the good,

[MisterJB]

I am all in favor of reforms but comparing the Chantry to Tevinter is quite unfair. Tevinter was founded on greed and exists to make Thedas the personal playground of the Magisters.
The Chantry, altough flawed, has created a safer and more moral society where practices such as slavery are viewed with disgust. Mages are not free and for good reasons but their treatment is humane. By far, better than what they endure under the Qun or what mundanes endure in Tevinter.
They are not slaves, they are fed, dressed, educated and, in return, are asked their help every now and again. Circles like Kirkwall are the exception, not the rule.
The Divine doesn't have secret squads of blood mages to whom she feeds peasants, does she?

Striving for improvement is desirable but a mage rebellion will benefit solely the mages while mundanes will suffer greatly. Justinia and Wynne were working towards reforms in the right way.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 septembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Now, I could see Cullen maybe working with Orsino, but given how the Templars are a military order Cullen would be duty bound to relay all information acquired to Meredith, who would then call for the Annulment -- remember, she acquired the broken idol in Act 2 from Bartrand.

I can definitely see Orsino working with Thrask though.

The Mages were willing to cooperate, but the Order was far too much composed of people like Karras, Alrik, and Meredith and not enough people like Thrask, Emeric, Keran, and arguably Cullen.

Remember, the rebellion against Meredith and her like-minded cronies -- not against the Circle or the Chantry -- was begun by Thrask and had Mages and Templars working together, and was destroyed entirely by plot stupidity -- on a pro-Mage path anyway. For a pro-Templar path, it makes a modicum of sense.

That rebellion was founded by a templar and destroyed by a blood mage that belongued to the Circle. The Circle of Kirkwall had its fair share of Graces and Huons for the templars to contend with.
And, despite this, the templars became increasingly pro-mage as time went on with some of them even assisting in an escape (that released two dangerous mages, tough).
Orsino, however, was unwilling to cooperate. We know he hid Quentin's existence from the templars, did not go to the templars when he suspected of a conspirancy because, as he admits, he half-considered it a plot by Meredith, refused to allow Meredith to search the tower for blood mages and "I am through helping her. She won't be helped." at the beginning of Act 3.

So, maybe Orsino had good reasons to suspect of Meredith, but he also did not work towards giving her reasons to trust him.

That'd be applicable if he showed up after the assault on the city. But he's seen during the assault, indicating that he and his mages were there for other reasons unrelated to the Qunari assault.

No, it indicates they noticed the city was under attack and decided to fight the qunari.

1) The phylactery of Mharen led to a Foundry.

Which they searched.

2) Said foundry had a man, in robes, with a staff on his back and balding grey hair leaving.

Only the player sees that.

3) It isn't until Hawke steps foot into the foundry proper -- after the man has left the scene -- that Demons and Shades show up. Fenris will even state that they were no doubt summoned by a Mage.

4) Hawke reports on this to Emeric, telling him that Demons were in the Foundry.

5) The thin Veil in Kirkwall isn't common knowledge, as not even Elthina was aware of how thin the Veil was until Sebastian's family's murder was revealed to have been the work of a powerful Desire Demon.

6) Both Mharen and Ninette were sent white lilies, something Jethann never mentions he had anything to do with.

In all of Act 1, the only time Demons are seen outside of the Expedition is when something grave is afoot in Kirkwall.

By default, the Templars should've secured the Foundry -- with support from the City Guard -- because it was the site of suspicious activity where Demons were fought and a man -- be he a witness or the perpetrator -- was seen fleeing from the scene of the crime.

The Templars don't need any more information to be able to do their job. Act 1 alone set up the groundwork for them to do it. But instead they left Emeric to do it all on his own, believing he was chasing one last shot at glory. It isn't until he winds up dead that they bother to realize "Oh crap, Demons are in the city! And a mage did all this!".

Never mind how once Gascard is confronted -- with Aveline possibly there -- Hawke is unable to relay what he's learned about the killer to the Templars, both before and after Emeric's death.

Really, the whole Quentin arc just screams how the City Guard and the Templars are incompetent at actually doing their jobs, even with Aveline the supposed "Captain that makes the Guards awesome" among the former.

The templars searched the foundry, they found nothing, and the city guard followed Emeric's clues and again, found nothing.
Could more have been done? Perhaps. But Quentin would have been stopped had Orsino simply informed the templars.

First, as is made apparent a few times Kirkwall was a better place prior to Meredith's institution as Knight-Commander. From Thrask's words, it can be inferred that the Mages and the Templars did in fact work together before she became the head honcho.
Doubtful. When Meredith took control of the Templars, she immediately
changed Kirkwall's policies towards the mages and instituted anti-mage
policies and enforced existing ones to the point of oppression.

Thrask
tells us that Meredith changed how Kirkwall was before her. Not that
she just simply enforced already existing ideas fervently, but that she
actually started Kirkwall's Templars down its anti-mage path. At least,
more then it was during the years prior.

We know Meredith became
Knight-Commander in 9:21 Dragon. We also know that Orsino was First
Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon, possibly the year he became such. Finally, the
codex we receive on Orsino is acquired in 9:34 Dragon, during the
Qunari uprising. In it, it says that for the last five years Orsino has
been very vocal against Meredith's recent measures, telling us that the
disputes -- and I'll admit maybe even the changes towards Mage treatment
-- began in 9:29 Dragon.

Thrask was a good man who trusted mages and look at what happened to him. Murdered by one.
As for Orsino, as I mentioned in this same post, associated with a blood mages and was quite unreasonable in his treatment of most templars.

Guarding mages is a dangerous job and Meredith became Knigth Commander after the previous one had been hanged by the previous Viscount which would have, no doubt, incited violence from the mages against their now leaderless enemy. She is harsh, no doubt, but I hesitate to denounce her ways when she wasn't being influentied by the Idol based solely on the words of Thrask and Orsino.

Second, Corypheus can only influence beings that bear the Taint. The Wardens, the Darkspawn, and the Carta all have one thing in common: they're tainted. Janeka was manipulated by Corypheus into going to the Carta and getting them to become tainted, where Corypheus could then influence them. The Darkspawn are instinctively drawn to Corypheus to help free him, and Larius states that only beings that bear the Taint can hear him.

So those speculations on Kirkwall penned by some in-game author have no bearing on Kirkwall's thin Veil.

Corypheus is an extremely powerful Emissary and its prison was filled with magic and demons to the brim. His presence might have influenced the state of the Veil and the dominion of demons over Kirkwall.

The Circle isn't the only bastion of arcane knowledge. The Dalish Mages are well trained in how to handle their magic, as are presumably the Chasind Shamans, the Rivaini Seers, and the other mages in other cultures.

Those cultures are, however, quite different from human society.
The dalish have a smaller population which means fewer mages. That way, the Keeper can dedicate all of his or her attention to a small number of apprentices and make absolutely sure they are prepared.
We don't know enough about the Chansing but the Rivaini Seers are known to let themselves be possessed which doesn't inspire trust from my part.

Tevinter makes it a point to train all mages, IIRC. Most end up enslaved, but they are trained in the Circles. Haven, for all of its moral bankruptcy, survived hundreds of years with Mages living alongside one another -- indicating that they have their own methods.

That is because they activelly attempt to dominate demons which will then, gives them powers such as mind control.
It is not a practice I'd like to see in Andrastian Society.

Still, there isn't any reason the Mages can't have limited freedoms. Marriage, raising families, etc. If they had limited freedom, then I'm sure many would be content.

You'll always have the malcontents, but you don't punish the many for the actions of the few, especially when the many are not like the few until you make them such by... well... treating them as such.

I am fully in favor of granting the mages limited freedom altough I suspect we would disagree on just how much.
Vigilance must be mantained, however, so long as it impossible to distinguish the Tarhones from the Bethanys at a glance.

[Fiacre]

Chevaliers are legally allowed to rape peasants. Orlais is the seat of the Chantry. How very moral.

And the way mages are treated isn't humane, that's the thing. That's why there have always been rebellions, even in Ferelden, which apparently is one of the better Circles out there (I point to my post where none of my examples of abuse where from Kirkwall.)

And the Qun being worse doesn't mean the Chantry is right, it just means the Qunari somehow manage to, well, be even worse.

We don't know if Justinia's way would have worked. We also don't know if the rebellion will turn out to be worse. For all we know everything will turn out just fine, so saying the rebellion will only benefit the mages while non-mages will suffer greatly is entirely speculation founded on your opinions of magic, not facts.

[MisterJB]

Orlesian society is to blame for the freedoms of the chevaliers, not the Chantry that teaches all men are equal in the eyes of the Maker. Should the Chantry have templars fighting chevaliers in the streets of Orlais?

The way mages are treated is actually very humane. They are kept in a luxurious tower, clothed, fed, educated. Templars share power with the Enchanters, no mage can be killed or made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter. Abuses are the exception, not the norm.
Just because a rebellion happened, that doesn't make it righteous. I consider this rebellion an act of selfishness from mages who feel only self entitlement and are incapable of acknowledging mundanes have good reasons to fear them.
Do you truly believe that if this rebellion suceeds, that these mages who felt so unjusticed and have won their freedom by slaugthering thousands of mundanes will be interested in equality? Don't be naive.

[EricHVela]

MisterJB wrote...

Orlesian society is to blame for the freedoms of the chevaliers, not the Chantry that teaches all men are equal in the eyes of the Maker. Should the Chantry have templars fighting chevaliers in the streets of Orlais?

The way mages are treated is actually very humane. They are kept in a luxurious tower, clothed, fed, educated. Templars share power with the Enchanters, no mage can be killed or made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter. Abuses are the exception, not the norm.
Just because a rebellion happened, that doesn't make it righteous. I consider this rebellion an act of selfishness from mages who feel only self entitlement and are incapable of acknowledging mundanes have good reasons to fear them.
Do you truly believe that if this rebellion suceeds, that these mages who felt so unjusticed and have won their freedom by slaugthering thousands of mundanes will be interested in equality? Don't be naive.

The Rebellion was started by an exception, not the norm.

The Mages and Templars were given no choice in the matter thanks to Anders. Meredith was insane, and Orsino was panicky. Anders used that to his selfish advantage.

They (the norm) can still find common ground despite Anders' actions. They were trying when Anders took that away from them, even though they were insane and panicky.

The mages defended themselves. The surviving Templars (specifically Cullen) were having doubts about their duties.

The war can still be won overall with peace.

The question is, will BWE let us do that? Deliberation is boring. Killing is fun.

[MisterJB]

ReggarBlane wrote...
They (the norm) can still find common ground despite Anders' actions.

The war can still be won overall with peace.

That's what I am hoping for. That and that Bioware treats this complex issue with the nuance it deserves.