146 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

I am all in favor of reforms but comparing the Chantry to Tevinter is quite unfair. Tevinter was founded on greed and exists to make Thedas the personal playground of the Magisters.

While the Chantry seeks to impose itself all over the known world.

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry, altough flawed, has created a safer and more moral society where practices such as slavery are viewed with disgust.

Except for their slavery of mages and forcing elves into servitude.

MisterJB wrote...

Mages are not free and for good reasons but their treatment is humane. By far, better than what they endure under the Qun or what mundanes endure in Tevinter.

Humane? The Rite of Tranquility is monstrous. The mage protagonist can point out that the Circle is an "oppressive place," mages have tried to overthrow this dictatorship, and multiple characters refer to the institution as slavery.

MisterJB wrote...

They are not slaves, they are fed, dressed, educated and, in return, are asked their help every now and again. Circles like Kirkwall are the exception, not the rule.

There are real life slaves who were fed, dressed, and educated; that doesn't change the fact that they were slaves.

MisterJB wrote...

The Divine doesn't have secret squads of blood mages to whom she feeds peasants, does she?

Striving for improvement is desirable but a mage rebellion will benefit solely the mages while mundanes will suffer greatly. Justinia and Wynne were working towards reforms in the right way.

Aldenon strived for equality; the Hero of Ferelden can try to emancipate his people in the Circle; Anders pushes apostate Hawke to be a leader in the mage rebellion; the idea that mundanes will suffer unless mages are horribly oppressed is ludicrous.

[Heimdall]

thats1evildude wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Adrian was a complete jerkass and lacks the charisma to be a true leader. I mean, everything she says drips with insane evil sorcerer vibes. How she became a First Enchanter is anyone's guess. Rhys should have cut her throat while he had the chance.

Well, the title of First Enchanter is pretty meaningless at that point, as there isn't even a Circle anymore.

But Rhys should have pushed her off the cliff regardless.

. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking this.

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

Orlesian society is to blame for the freedoms of the chevaliers, not the Chantry that teaches all men are equal in the eyes of the Maker. Should the Chantry have templars fighting chevaliers in the streets of Orlais?

The way mages are treated is actually very humane. They are kept in a luxurious tower, clothed, fed, educated. Templars share power with the Enchanters, no mage can be killed or made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter. Abuses are the exception, not the norm.
Just because a rebellion happened, that doesn't make it righteous. I consider this rebellion an act of selfishness from mages who feel only self entitlement and are incapable of acknowledging mundanes have good reasons to fear them.
Do you truly believe that if this rebellion suceeds, that these mages who felt so unjusticed and have won their freedom by slaugthering thousands of mundanes will be interested in equality? Don't be naive.

Orlais is the seat of the Chantry. The Chantry dictates people's morals. The Chantry has power -- political power as well. Th Chantry could strive to correct those wrongs. The Chantry does not, because the Chantry -- the instituition, not the individual members, I have no doubt that there are many good people in the chantry -- does not care. Just like the Chantry didn't care about the way Chevaliers raped and beat people to death during the Orlesian occupation -- and , in fact, supported Orlais in its actions. Just like the Chantry does precious little to improve the lot of the elves from what we can see. In fact, we genreally see little help the Chantry provides apart from hosuing refugees every now and then. Even the Chanter's Board relies on *others* helping, either to help or to get paid by the Chanters.

The Chantry is not a particular moral instituition.

And yes, I do believe that. because it is *not* mages agaisnt mundanes, they against us. It's a fight against injustice, and a fight for equality. The Dalish manage fine without their mages trying to rule all. In fact, the only place where we've heard of that being a problem is Tevinter and societies like Tevinter need no magic to exist. It is not magic that brings about slaver and moral banktruptcy, we've had -- and have -- our fair share of that in our world and as far as I know we don't have magic.

Not every mage is Tarohne or Quentin, just like not every Templar is Meredith or Alrik. Magic doesn't make living side by side impossible; other societies have proven that it *is* possible. The rebellion can end badly, I'm under no illusion that it can't. It can just as well end well.

And no, there's nothing luxurious about the tower. It's a prettied up prison. Mages aren't allowed privacy or  family, they have no autonomy, they are at all times at the mercy of Templars. Being fed and clothed does not make up for lacking basic freedoms, does not make up for being imprisoned despite not having committed a single crime, does not make up for sexual and emotional abuse even in Ferelden's Circle.

And replay the mage origin. If you rat Jowan out, Irving will tell you that, were it up to him, he'd like to give Jowan a second chance, but it isn't up to him and he can't save Jowan. The Templars hold the power, not the Enchanters.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the Chantry seeks to impose itself all over the known world.

The governements of Andrastian Society are not controlled by the Chantry. They attempt to spread their religion through, mostly, peaceful means altough, I admit, that is not always the case.

Except for their slavery of mages and forcing elves into servitude.

Mages are not slaves.
Elves are not forced into anything. There is social inequality between most elves and humans but that is simply a sad staple of society and a result of losing a war. Many humans have no options other than to work as servants as well.

Humane? The Rite of Tranquility is monstrous.

The Rite of Tranquility is a last resort and used only on volunteers, mages who are truly incapable of controlling their powers or malleficarum and it has to be approved by the First Enchanter.

The mage protagonist can point out that the Circle is an "oppressive place," mages have tried to overthrow this dictatorship, and multiple characters refer to the institution as slavery.

And just because a character expresses his opinions, that automatically becomes fact? I have heard their arguments and I disagree with them.

There are real life slaves who were fed, dressed, and educated; that doesn't change the fact that they were slaves.

Except Templars share powers with the Enchanters.

Aldenon strived for equality;

A worthy goal but almost impossible to accomplish since mages and mundanes are not born equal.
I would be most interested in hearing how Aldenon would propose to avoid the abuse of mundanes by mages.

the idea that mundanes will suffer unless mages are horribly oppressed is ludicrous.

No, it isn't. Mundanes have suffered horrendously under the mages. They continue to suffer both in tevinter and in Andrastian Societies.
And we can take it even further. Innumerable times, those with power have abused those without it. It happens today in our world and we would call ouselves "advanced" when compared with Thedas.
Mages are born with a natural advantage over mundanes and, obviously, they are going to use it .

[xsdob]

Mage guilt, it's like white guilt, but with mages.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Fiacre wrote...
Orlais is the seat of the Chantry. The Chantry dictates people's morals. The Chantry has power -- political power as well. Th Chantry could strive to correct those wrongs. The Chantry does not, because the Chantry -- the instituition, not the individual members, I have no doubt that there are many good people in the chantry -- does not care. Just like the Chantry didn't care about the way Chevaliers raped and beat people to death during the Orlesian occupation -- and , in fact, supported Orlais in its actions. Just like the Chantry does precious little to improve the lot of the elves from what we can see. In fact, we genreally see little help the Chantry provides apart from hosuing refugees every now and then. Even the Chanter's Board relies on *others* helping, either to help or to get paid by the Chanters.[/quote]
Violations and beatings are common in any war. The Chantry might condemn these actions but what else can they do?
The Chantry's involvement in political conflicts is marginal at best. A word in certain ears, some advice and perhaps naming an age. But that's the extent of it and if the Chantry truly wanted to abuse their powers, they could. They could send batallions of templars or mages to fight in Orlais' wars but they don't. They don't because they believe the Chantry is not meant to hold worldly power. Altough this can change depending on the Divine.
Since Orlais is the seat of the Chantry, The Divine can be somewhat biased which is understandable but the same doesn't apply to all Grand Clerics. The Grand Cleric of Denerim, for instance, support the Orlesian occupation only because she believed it was the best way to protect her people. Once Maric became capable of winning and the regent continued to abuse fereldans, she changed her support.

It's only because of the Chantry that slavery is forbidden, that mundanes don't have to live in constant fear of magic. It has made mistakes that deserve to be adressed but, ultimately, it has had a very positive effect on Thedas.

[quote]The Chantry is not a particular moral instituition.[/quote]
It really is. I was surprised by how idealistic it is.
Real world religions have commited far worse crimes.

[quote]And yes, I do believe that. because it is *not* mages agaisnt mundanes, they against us. It's a fight against injustice, and a fight for equality.[/quote]
I believe most mages really believe they are fighting for justice and equality.
But it won't last, it never does. It might start out of resentment, fear, anger or simple greed but if the mages are allowed a complete victory, mundanes will suffer.
It has already begun. In a bid to increase the standing of mages within Orlais, Wynne kept secret of the incoming civil war which is causing the death of innocent mundanes.

[quote]The Dalish manage fine without their mages trying to rule all.[/quote]
The Dalish? Where leadership is only available to those gifted with magical abilities?

[quote]In fact, the only place where we've heard of that being a problem is Tevinter and societies like Tevinter need no magic to exist. It is not magic that brings about slaver and moral banktruptcy, we've had -- and have -- our fair share of that in our world and as far as I know we don't have magic.[/quote]
That is a fact. That is because those with power have the tendency to abuse those who are powerless.
Mages are born powerful, with abilities mundanes will never possess. The risk of them abusing it is great indeed.

[quote]Not every mage is Tarohne or Quentin, just like not every Templar is Meredith or Alrik.[/quote]
Every mage is open to temptation, however. And just like all it took was a templar like Meredith in the right position for mages to suffer; if someone like Tarohne is placed in a position of power, mundanes will suffer.

[quote]Magic doesn't make living side by side impossible;[/quote]
It makes it extremely difficult, however. People fear living side by side with people who can burn them alive with a tought and are susceptible to demonic possession for good reasons. And mages believe themselves superior with, again, good reason.
I'm against mages living side by side with mundanes because I think it is impossible or so close to it, it doesn't matter. I favor more limited freedoms for the Circles, however.

[quote]The rebellion can end badly, I'm under no illusion that it can't. It can just as well end well.[/quote]
Only if both sides are forced to reach a truce. If any of the sides is allowed complete victory, the loser will suffer greatly.

[quote]And no, there's nothing luxurious about the tower. It's a prettied up prison. Mages aren't allowed privacy or  family, they have no autonomy, they are at all times at the mercy of Templars. Being fed and clothed does not make up for lacking basic freedoms, does not make up for being imprisoned despite not having committed a single crime,[/quote]
Of course it does, there are millions in Thedas and in our world who would happily accept being imprisioned in the Circle because it would be a huge improvement over their living conditions.

[quote]does not make up for sexual and emotional abuse even in Ferelden's Circle. [/quote]
Those cases are the exception, not the norm.

[quote]And replay the mage origin. If you rat Jowan out, Irving will tell you that, were it up to him, he'd like to give Jowan a second chance, but it isn't up to him and he can't save Jowan. The Templars hold the power, not the Enchanters.
[/quote]
They share the power. In that particular situation, the templars won the argument and rigthfully so, Jowan was a blood mage.
That very same day, Gregoir loses an argument and allows The Warden to join Duncan.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 septembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

That very same day, Gregoir loses an argument and allows The Warden to join Duncan.

He doesn't lose the argument with Irving, he loses it with Duncan.  Right of Conscription is a Warden right, not a Mage one.

[MisterJB]

Duncan only invokes the Right of Conscription if The Warden didn't reveal Jowan's plan to Irving. Otherwise, the conversation is more of an argument with Irving and Duncan convincing Greagoir.
I will grant you that whenever a Grey Warden wants to recruit someone, the Right of Conscriptions is almost always non-verbally implied.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Chantry seeks to impose itself all over the known world.

As if Tevinter wouldn't, given the chance.

MisterJB wrote...

Except for their slavery of mages and forcing elves into servitude.

The mages aren't slaves, and the elves are not kept down by the Chantry. The Exalted March on the Dales was the result of elven aggression. If anything, modern-day Tevinter still carries the lion's share of blame when it comes to oppressing the elven people due to the slave trade.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Fiacre]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...


Violations and beatings are common in any war. The Chantry might condemn these actions but what else can they do?
The Chantry's involvement in political conflicts is marginal at best. A word in certain ears, some advice and perhaps naming an age. But that's the extent of it and if the Chantry truly wanted to abuse their powers, they could. They could send batallions of templars or mages to fight in Orlais' wars but they don't. They don't because they believe the Chantry is not meant to hold worldly power. Altough this can change depending on the Divine.
Since Orlais is the seat of the Chantry, The Divine can be somewhat biased which is understandable but the same doesn't apply to all Grand Clerics. The Grand Cleric of Denerim, for instance, support the Orlesian occupation only because she believed it was the best way to protect her people. Once Maric became capable of winning and the regent continued to abuse fereldans, she changed her support.
[/quote]

The Chantry doesn't condemn them. It supports Orlais and it supports Orlais's crimes. You may not think much of how that support manifests itself -- I disagrre -- but fact is, the Chantry as an instituition, its leadership, supports Orlais. And the simply the vocal support can already be a powerful thing; the Chantry doesn't even need to send its Templars.

The Grand Cleric changes sides doesn't change wat the Chantry and the divine as a whole supported.


[quote]It's only because of the Chantry that slavery is forbidden, that mundanes don't have to live in constant fear of magic. It has made mistakes that deserve to be adressed but, ultimately, it has had a very positive effect on Thedas.[/quote]

Is it? I wouldn't be suprised if slavery had been outlawed ad the Chantry never formed. Religion is not the only valid source of morality.

And whatever positive effects, it has also had many negative effects. I'm sure the people in Rivain were ecstatic when the Chantry slaughtered them after they refused to convert back.


[quote]It really is. I was surprised by how idealistic it is.
Real world religions have commited far worse crimes.[/quote]

"It could be worse" is not a sufficient argument. It could also be better. In fact, it should be better.

[quote]I believe most mages really believe they are fighting for justice and equality.
But it won't last, it never does. It might start out of resentment, fear, anger or simple greed but if the mages are allowed a complete victory, mundanes will suffer.
It has already begun. In a bid to increase the standing of mages within Orlais, Wynne kept secret of the incoming civil war which is causing the death of innocent mundanes.[/quote]

I've not actually read Asunder yet (though as i said before, what I've heard didn't sound good as far as Circles being humane goes), so I'd need a bit more context for that part.

And again, you don't know it won't last, just like I don't know it will. I firmly believe t is possible, but I don't know for certain. But demonizing people has never helped and there are many. many decent people who are mages who have no desire to hurt anyone. And had the chantry treated mages repsectfully and humanely, then the mages would have no reason for fear anger and resentment. And people are greedy with and without magic, Magic alone won't make all mages greedy. Not everyone is a magister.


[quote]The Dalish? Where leadership is only available to those gifted with magical abilities?[/quote]

The Dalish choose to live that way and I never saw any resentment towards their Keepers, quite the opposite. They're not being oprressed by them. clearly it is possible for mages and non-mages to live side by side peacefully and without opprsession; in fact, had the dalish not chosen to have Keepers that are mages, I'm sure it would still work just as well.

[quote]That is a fact. That is because those with power have the tendency to abuse those who are powerless.
Mages are born powerful, with abilities mundanes will never possess. The risk of them abusing it is great indeed.[/quote]

Clearly no one should have power, ever! Let us descend into anarchy! No more corruption through power! Of course there's a risk that there will be some mages who will abuse their power, just like non-mages abuse their power. but there are also people that don't abuse their power. Punishing someone for something they haven't done is wrong. Send your Templars after a mage when s/he has proven to be corrupt and powerhungry. Leave the others alone.

[quote]Every mage is open to temptation, however. And just like all it took was a templar like Meredith in the right position for mages to suffer; if someone like Tarohne is placed in a position of power, mundanes will suffer.[/quote]

every person is open to Temptation at some point or another. Notr all take it. Not all mages will take it. And people like Tarohne clearly shouldn't be given positions of authority, just like Meredith should never have been Knight-Commander and certainly not retained her position after Act 2. That crazy people can land in a position of power is always possible, if you lock mages up or not. And non-mages can make non-mages suffer just as horribly, our own history has proven as much.


[quote]It makes it extremely difficult, however. People fear living side by side with people who can burn them alive with a tought and are susceptible to demonic possession for good reasons. And mages believe themselves superior with, again, good reason.
I'm against mages living side by side with mundanes because I think it is impossible or so close to it, it doesn't matter. I favor more limited freedoms for the Circles, however.[/quote]

Does it? i have a friend trained in martial arts. I've little doubt that with little effort he could injure me badly, likely kill me while I never stood a chance. I can't say I've ever felt in danger when i was with him. Nor would I feel indanger with the many, many people who'd be likely to overpower me if they so wanted. I'd lock myself in my room and never comeout otherwise.

And not all mages believe themselves to be superior. Did Malcolm? Does Wynne? Orsino? Irving? Merrill? Marethari? Alain? Feynriel? Jowan? Did Velanna hat others because she was a mage or because she was Dalish? Did Anders start the rebellion because he believes himself superior or because he belives into living equally?

It's not impossible, we've been shown it's possible and if the Chantry hadn't elt things come as far as they have, there would be no reason for mages to lash out against others.


[quote]Only if both sides are forced to reach a truce. If any of the sides is allowed complete victory, the loser will suffer greatly.[/quote]

That's assuming, agains, that this is purely about mages vs non-mages, which it isn't. There are many, many non-mages who would fight side by side with mages. Absolute victories have a tendency to make the loser suffer. The maes winning does not mean that the non-mages will be that loser, rather than those that would oppress others.


[quote]Of course it does, there are millions in Thedas and in our world who would happily accept being imprisioned in the Circle because it would be a huge improvement over their living conditions.[/quote]

Again, "it could be worse" is not sufficent. The best possible should be strived for. Improving living conditions for these people should not be stopped at "ssomewhat better than before", but at "as good as possible". The same goes for mages. There is *a lot* of improvement to be done.

[quote]Those cases are the exception, not the norm.[/quote]

So you keeo saying. The evidence does not support you.

[quote]
They share the power. In that particular situation, the templars won the argument and rigthfully so, Jowan was a blood mage.
That very same day, Gregoir loses an argument and allows The Warden to join Duncan.

[/quote]

Irving is forced to agree. And Jowan wasn't actually dangerous to anyone, despite that. He became dangerous once he was backed into a corner, just like anyone else. And when he realized what he'd done -- that he'd trusted the wrong man, that Loghain had lied to him -- he did everything he could to make things right and submitted to punishment without complaint. How very, very corript and greeedy of him.

And the Right of Concription has nothing to do with Iving aside from Irving outmanouvering Greagoir by arranging to make his apprentice a warden. Greagoir doesn't allow anything, he simply does not have the authority to deny Duncan and thankfully is indeed somewhat more reasinably than Rylock and co.

Modifié par Fiacre, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:30 .

[Fiacre]

MisterJB wrote...

Duncan only invokes the Right of Conscription if The Warden didn't reveal Jowan's plan to Irving. Otherwise, the conversation is more of an argument with Irving and Duncan convincing Greagoir.
I will grant you that whenever a Grey Warden wants to recruit someone, the Right of Conscriptions is almost always non-verbally implied.

Both mages I've played have ratted Jowan out, believe me, Greagoir refuses to let the Warden go before Duncan simply concripts them. Irving may have planned it, but it's still Duncan's Right of Conscription that makes it possible, not Irving's authority. He *might* have convinced Greagoir to leave the Warden alone -- greagoir doesn't blame you any more once you return for Broken Circle -- but we don't know how this situation would have ended without Duncan's intervention.

[KingRoxas]

NVM

Modifié par Kingroxas, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Chantry seeks to impose itself all over the known world.[/quote]

The governements of Andrastian Society are not controlled by the Chantry. They attempt to spread their religion through, mostly, peaceful means altough, I admit, that is not always the case. [/quote]

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste are intertwined, as we see from their tied inception due to the actions of Emperor Kordillus Drakon I (a member of one of the Cults of Andraste), and in recent years with the Chantry's
support for the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, in addition to the war with the Dales. We also see the involvement of the Chantry in government as well; there is no seperation of church and state in the Andrastian nations.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for their slavery of mages and forcing elves into servitude.[/quote]

Mages are not slaves. [/quote]

Some characters in Dragon Age think otherwise, and even the templar supporters never dispute their views on the matter.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Elves are not forced into anything. There is social inequality between most elves and humans but that is simply a sad staple of society and a result of losing a war. Many humans have no options other than to work as servants as well. [/quote]

According to the Dalish, the war between Orlais and the Dales started because the Chantry tried to forcibly convert them to the Chantry, and sent templars into sovereign territory when the elves kicked out the missionaries. As for the aftermath of the war, elves were forced to live in Alienages (ghettos), abandon their gods, and convert to the Chantry of Andraste; they only have the option to have an occupation of servitude. The elves who refused to convert are nomads who have to roam the continent because templars hunt down their elven mages, and members of the Chantry threaten their lives because they see them as "heathens."

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Humane? The Rite of Tranquility is monstrous.[/quote]

TheRite of Tranquility is a last resort and used only on volunteers, mages who are truly incapable of controlling their powers or malleficarum and it has to be approved by the First Enchanter. [/quote]

Approved by the First Enchanter in a Chantry controlled Circle, where mages live under the rule of the Chantry and their personal military. Irving said Jowan's Rite was a matter of survival, and said things would be different if it were up to him; that doesn't sound as though he felt he had a genuine choice in the matter.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The mage protagonist can point out that the Circle is an "oppressive place," mages have tried to overthrow this dictatorship, and multiple characters refer to the institution as slavery.[/quote]

And just because a character expresses his opinions, that automatically becomes fact? I have heard their arguments and I disagree with them. [/quote]

Just as I disagree with your opinions, which is why I present the views of characters I concur with.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are real life slaves who were fed, dressed, and educated; that doesn't change the fact that they were slaves.[/quote]

Except Templars share powers with the Enchanters. [/quote]

And who believes that? Even Alistair doesn't dispute the mage protagonist pointing out that the Circle of Magi will do whatever the Chantry tells them to, and he was trained to be a templar.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon strived for equality;[/quote]

A worthy goal but almost impossible to accomplish since mages and mundanes are not born equal.
I would be most interested in hearing how Aldenon would propose to avoid the abuse of mundanes by mages. [/quote]

It's impossible when your friend stabs you in the back, and betrays your people to an anti-mage religious order that believes they have "domination over mages by divine right."

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

the idea that mundanes will suffer unless mages are horribly oppressed is ludicrous.[/quote]

No, it isn't. Mundanes have suffered horrendously under the mages. They continue to suffer both in tevinter and in Andrastian Societies. [/quote]

Mages are also slaves in Tevinter. The tyranny of Tevinter isn't emulated among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, or in the Kingdom of Rivain. The idea that free mages = Tevinter is ridiculous.

Historically, Aldenon the Wise sought to create a kingdom of equals. If we factor in the events of Origins, the mage protagonist can become the Hero of Ferelden by using his magical powers to save Thedas from the Fifth Blight, and eventually becomes the Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander of Ferelden, and his existance disproves the idea that a mage can't wield power responsibly.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

And we can take it even further. Innumerable times, those with power have abused those without it. It happens today in our world and we would call ouselves "advanced" when compared with Thedas. Mages are born with a natural advantage over mundanes and, obviously, they are going to use it .[/quote]

If that was true, then why doesn't Merrill use her blood magic to rule over humanity? Why doesn't an apostate Hawke? Bethany? Malcolm? Why do we see Anders wanting equality over power?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]Fiacre wrote...
The Chantry doesn't condemn them. It supports Orlais and it supports Orlais's crimes. You may not think much of how that support manifests itself -- I disagrre -- but fact is, the Chantry as an instituition, its leadership, supports Orlais. And the simply the vocal support can already be a powerful thing; the Chantry doesn't even need to send its Templars.

The Grand Cleric changes sides doesn't change wat the Chantry and the divine as a whole supported.[/quote]
Vocal support is nothing compared to what they could do. Obviously, you can't expect the Chantry to be eager to anger the Emperor of Orlais who lives next door but I seriously doubt their sermons encouraged beatings or rapings. Ferelden was already Andrastian so, their involvement in the war would have been marginal.

[quote]
Is it? I wouldn't be suprised if slavery had been outlawed ad the Chantry never formed. Religion is not the only valid source of morality.

And whatever positive effects, it has also had many negative effects. I'm sure the people in Rivain were ecstatic when the Chantry slaughtered them after they refused to convert back.[/quote]
Religion is a good source of morality, however, especially in a medieval world that, up until that point, had been controlled by a nation whose system of governance is based on who can shoot the biggest fireballs.

I have always acknowledged the Chantry has its flaws. I'm well aware of what happened in Rivain and I'm still very much Pro-Chantry.
The Qunari do the same to those who refuse to convert.


[quote]
"It could be worse" is not a sufficient argument. It could also be better. In fact, it should be better.[/quote]
Idealism is good but it tends to be crushed by the harshness of reality.

[quote]
I've not actually read Asunder yet (though as i said before, what I've heard didn't sound good as far as Circles being humane goes), so I'd need a bit more context for that part.[/quote]
A civil war is happening in Orlais and the Empress was attracted to a trap. Wynne knew about and could have informed the Divine. She chose not to, however, because she hoped mages would be called to defend Orlais which would increase their importance. Thus, Wynne chose to let a war that will kill many innocents start because it might help the mages.
So, Wynne; sweet and grandmotherly; is already making decisions that favor mages over mundanes. This bodes well.

[quote]And again, you don't know it won't last, just like I don't know it will. I firmly believe t is possible, but I don't know for certain. But demonizing people has never helped and there are many. many decent people who are mages who have no desire to hurt anyone. And had the chantry treated mages repsectfully and humanely, then the mages would have no reason for fear anger and resentment. And people are greedy with and without magic, Magic alone won't make all mages greedy. Not everyone is a magister.[/quote]
I can open an history book and see what happens during wars and afterwards to the losing sides.
It's not pretty.

[quote]
The Dalish choose to live that way and I never saw any resentment towards their Keepers, quite the opposite. They're not being oprressed by them. clearly it is possible for mages and non-mages to live side by side peacefully and without opprsession; in fact, had the dalish not chosen to have Keepers that are mages, I'm sure it would still work just as well.[/quote]
The dalish are united against a common enemy: humanity. They can't afford internal quarrels.


[quote]
Clearly no one should have power, ever! Let us descend into anarchy! No more corruption through power! Of course there's a risk that there will be some mages who will abuse their power, just like non-mages abuse their power. but there are also people that don't abuse their power. [/quote]
All people abuse their power and if they don't is because they fear retribution. It is, however, much harder to punish a mage than a mundane because, unlike a noble who only has the importance society attributes him, mages have a real power that can't be removed.

[quote]Punishing someone for something they haven't done is wrong. Send your Templars after a mage when s/he has proven to be corrupt and powerhungry. Leave the others alone.[/quote]
And when are we supposed to do that? After a blood mage has killed 70 people and moved to the next village?
The Circle diminishs the exposure of mundanes to mages and increases the swiftness of Templar response.


[quote]every person is open to Temptation at some point or another. Notr all take it. Not all mages will take it. And people like Tarohne clearly shouldn't be given positions of authority, just like Meredith should never have been Knight-Commander and certainly not retained her position after Act 2. That crazy people can land in a position of power is always possible, if you lock mages up or not. And non-mages can make non-mages suffer just as horribly, our own history has proven as much.[/quote]
True but a mundane tyrant will be much easier to remove from power than a powerful Magister.
Loghain was removed from power through a fair judging by the Landsmeet. Had he been a blood mage capable of mind control, this would have been impossible.


[quote]
Does it? i have a friend trained in martial arts. I've little doubt that with little effort he could injure me badly, likely kill me while I never stood a chance. I can't say I've ever felt in danger when i was with him. Nor would I feel indanger with the many, many people who'd be likely to overpower me if they so wanted. I'd lock myself in my room and never comeout otherwise.[/quote]
First, there is no real comparison. You would have a better chance of defending yourself against your friend than against a mage.
Second, your friend has a system of justice in place that can prosecute him should he harm others. In the medieval world of Thedas, such a system might exist but would be much less efficient. A powerful mage could burn down an entire village and move to the next one without any fear of retribution.


[quote]And not all mages believe themselves to be superior. Did Malcolm? Does Wynne? Orsino? Irving? Merrill? Marethari? Alain? Feynriel? Jowan? Did Velanna hat others because she was a mage or because she was Dalish? Did Anders start the rebellion because he believes himself superior or because he belives into living equally?[/quote]
Danarius,
Hadriana, Danzig, Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Lady Harimann, Gascard, Quentin, Huon, Uldred, Caladrius, the Baroness and pretty much every single magister of Tevinter.
All mages with zero regards for the lives of others.

[quote] if the Chantry hadn't elt things come as far as they have, there would be no reason for mages to lash out against others.[/quote]
The mages in Teviner are free and I don't need to tell you how things are over there.
Many criminals and terrorists of our world are people who never suffered persecution and they still find reasons to commit crimes.
Right now, mages fight for freedom. Give it to them, and the excuse will be something else.


[quote]That's assuming, agains, that this is purely about mages vs non-mages, which it isn't. There are many, many non-mages who would fight side by side with mages. Absolute victories have a tendency to make the loser suffer. The maes winning does not mean that the non-mages will be that loser, rather than those that would oppress others.[/quote]
Of course it will. How many times in the history of both worlds, ours and Thedas, hasn't the anger of populations been turned towards innocents simply because they look like the enemy?

Also, you are confusing necessary security measures with opression.

[quote]Again, "it could be worse" is not sufficent. The best possible should be strived for. Improving living conditions for these people should not be stopped at "ssomewhat better than before", but at "as good as possible". The same goes for mages. There is *a lot* of improvement to be done.[/quote]
Again, idealism is nice but it tends to be crushed by reality.

[quote]
So you keeo saying. The evidence does not support you.[/quote]
What evidence? Kirkwall, where the templars eventually rose against Meredith? And where, despite everything, Bethany is quite happy to be in the Circle?
Ferelden where there is an friendly partnership between Knight Commander and First Enchanter?

[quote]
Irving is forced to agree. And Jowan wasn't actually dangerous to anyone, despite that. He became dangerous once he was backed into a corner, just like anyone else. And when he realized what he'd done -- that he'd trusted the wrong man, that Loghain had lied to him -- he did everything he could to make things right and submitted to punishment without complaint. How very, very corript and greeedy of him.[/quote]
Blood Magic is inherently the most dangerous of all magical arts. It's a gun and it shouldn't be placed in the hands of a child such as Jowan.
If templars who abuse mages must be punished, then the same thing must apply to mages who violate such a simple rule. It's only fair.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Chantry seeks to impose itself all over the known world.

As if Tevinter wouldn't, given the chance.

That doesn't make the Chantry of Andraste any better. It simply means they are just as bad as the Imperium.

thats1evildude wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Except for their slavery of mages and forcing elves into servitude.

The mages aren't slaves, and the elves are not kept down by the Chantry. The Exalted March on the Dales was the result of elven aggression. If anything, modern-day Tevinter still carries the lion's share of blame when it comes to oppressing the elven people due to the slave trade.

Aldenon the Wise historically called the Chantry controlled Circles slavery, and modern day people like Anders and (pro-mage) Hawke share this view.

As for the war between Orlais and the Dales, the Orlesian version claims it started because of an elven attack on the town of Red Crossing, but Orlais has a history of conquering other nations since its inception. They occupied Nevarra after the Third Blight, and occupied Ferelden for a century.

[Heimdall]

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[MisterJB]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

That is pretty much my stance, even if it not aparent.

[Saberchic]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

You mean like a compromise where both parties concede and gain favors? I would hope so.

[LobselVith8]

xsdob wrote...

Mage guilt, it's like white guilt, but with mages.

Considering mages are under the boot heel of the templars and the Chantry, living a life of servitude to a religious organization that preaches that mages committed their version of "original sin" and villifies mages as "cursed" to the point where innocent mages are murdered because people blame them for everything bad that transpires in their lives, I respectfully disagree with you.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
According to the Dalish, the war between Orlais and the Dales started because the Chantry tried to forcibly convert them to the Chantry, and sent templars into sovereign territory when the elves kicked out the missionaries. As for the aftermath of the war, elves were forced to live in Alienages (ghettos), abandon their gods, and convert to the Chantry of Andraste; they only have the option to have an occupation of servitude. The elves who refused to convert are nomads who have to roam the continent because templars hunt down their elven mages, and members of the Chantry threaten their lives because they see them as "heathens."

Your arguments are almost identical to those of Fiacre and it gets exhausting repeating the same thing over and over so, I hope you do not mind checking my responses to him and arguing against something if you wish.
I'm just going to adress this point regarding the elves because it is exclusive to you.

The elves of the Dales refused all attempts at peaceful co-existance, opting instead for isolation that served to create a climate of violence between neighbours. Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression.
I can't say for sure who started the war but an historical fact is that the Dalish sacked Val Royeaux and only after that did the Chantry call for an Exalthed March.
In present day, City Elves are not forced to live anywhere. Ocasionally, some even earn enough money to afford homes outside the alienage but, unfortunately, there is a great measure of racism between humans and elves; with both sides contributing to it, mind you; and attacks from the population makes them reconsider that option.
It's social inequality but it's not slavery and the Chantry is not working towards keeping the elves as servants. They can't worships their gods but had the elves of the Dales been more accepting of humans and allowed a few missionaries to open a Chantry in their nation, it would have lessened racial tensions.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

I'm not sure a realistic compromise is possible when rebel templars and rebel mages want the exact opposite of the other.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Dalish, the war between Orlais and the Dales started because the Chantry tried to forcibly convert them to the Chantry, and sent templars into sovereign territory when the elves kicked out the missionaries. As for the aftermath of the war, elves were forced to live in Alienages (ghettos), abandon their gods, and convert to the Chantry of Andraste; they only have the option to have an occupation of servitude. The elves who refused to convert are nomads who have to roam the continent because templars hunt down their elven mages, and members of the Chantry threaten their lives because they see them as "heathens."

Your arguments are almost identical to those of Fiacre and it gets exhausting repeating the same thing over and over so, I hope you do not mind checking my responses to him and arguing against something if you wish.
I'm just going to adress this point regarding the elves because it is exclusive to you.

The elves of the Dales refused all attempts at peaceful co-existance, opting instead for isolation that served to create a climate of violence between neighbours.

A neighbor that existed because Emperor Drakon I invaded his other neighbors in Exalted Marches to create the Orlesian Empire.

MisterJB wrote...

Missionarism, commerce and diplomacy are not acts of agression.

Sending in armed and armored soldiers into foreign soil seems like a sign of aggression to me. Especially after the elves kicked out human missionaries because they refused to convert to the Chantry of Andraste. I doubt the templars were invading the Dales to ask for a cup of tea, after all.

MisterJB wrote...

I can't say for sure who started the war but an historical fact is that the Dalish sacked Val Royeaux and only after that did the Chantry call for an Exalthed March.

If the Dalish attack was provoked by a prior attack from the Andrastians, the elves were acting in their own defense.

MisterJB wrote...

In present day, City Elves are not forced to live anywhere.

The elves were placed in Alienages, and have no real alternatives for a better life. They typically have no options to be anything other than servants, which means they make little money, and the few elves who do make enough money to move outside the Alienage have their homes burned down because society is racist towards elves.

MisterJB wrote...

Ocasionally, some even earn enough money to afford homes outside the alienage but, unfortunately, there is a great measure of racism between humans and elves; with both sides contributing to it, mind you; and attacks from the population makes them reconsider that option.

While the Chantry does nothing to change the minds of the people.

MisterJB wrote...

It's social inequality but it's not slavery and the Chantry is not working towards keeping the elves as servants. They can't worships their gods but had the elves of the Dales been more accepting of humans and allowed a few missionaries to open a Chantry in their nation, it would have lessened racial tensions.

Considering the Orlesian Empire invaded Andrastian nations like Nevarra and Ferelden with Chantry support, I respectfully disagree.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not sure a realistic compromise is possible when rebel templars and rebel mages want the exact opposite of the other.

No they don't.  Templars want to protect normal people from Mages.  Mages mostly want to be able to live somehat normal lives.

Open war between Templars and Mages serves neither of those ends.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not sure a realistic compromise is possible when rebel templars and rebel mages want the exact opposite of the other.

No they don't.  Templars want to protect normal people from Mages.  Mages mostly want to be able to live somehat normal lives.

Open war between Templars and Mages serves neither of those ends.

Actually, they do. The rebel templars want mages to be under templar control while the rebel mages want to be free from templar control.

If mages want freedom, they have to fight for it. Andraste and Shartan didn't write a strongly worded letter to the Imperium to free their people, after all.

[Fiacre]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Vocal support is nothing compared to what they could do. Obviously, you
can't expect the Chantry to be eager to anger the Emperor of Orlais who
lives next door but I seriously doubt their sermons encouraged beatings
or rapings. Ferelden was already Andrastian so, their involvement in the
war would have been marginal.
[/quote]

They're the bloody church, people listen to them and look to them for gudance. And what they see is the Chantry celebrating Orlais's impreial glory and implicitly condoning their crimes and the Chevalier's right to rape.

[quote]Religion is a good source of morality, however, especially in a medieval
world that, up until that point, had been controlled by a nation whose
system of governance is based on who can shoot the biggest fireballs.

I
have always acknowledged the Chantry has its flaws. I'm well aware of
what happened in Rivain and I'm still very much Pro-Chantry.
The Qunari do the same to those who refuse to convert.
[/quote]

Tevinter isn't the be all an end all of Thedas. What about the Alamarri? The Chasind? The Avarr? They existed still. Besides, yes, they are a good source, but again, there morals could use quite a lot of improvement.

The Qunari are as if not more reprehensible in my eyes. But the Qunari being bad doesn't make the chantry's actons any better.

[quote]Idealism is good but it tends to be crushed by the harshness of reality.[/quote]

Then let it be crushed by reality. Don't crush it before anything has been tried.

[quote]A civil war is happening in Orlais and the Empress was attracted to a
trap. Wynne knew about and could have informed the Divine. She chose not
to, however, because she hoped mages would be called to defend Orlais
which would increase their importance. Thus, Wynne chose to let a war
that will kill many innocents start because it might help the mages.
So, Wynne; sweet and grandmotherly; is already making decisions that favor mages over mundanes. This bodes well.
[/quote]

I see, thank you. And I can't say I ever thought much about Wynne's moral compass. Still, she's one person... and one person who hasn't always been the most moral one anyway.

[quote]I can open an history book and see what happens during wars and afterwards to the losing sides.
It's not pretty.[/quote]

I know. But I don't believe it's mages vs non-mages, so I don't think it will be the non-mages that suffer horribly. regrdless, I am for an outcome where mages can live peacefully and equally with the rest of the population, however that may be achieved. It doesn't have to be a complete victory.

[quote]The dalish are united against a common enemy: humanity. They can't afford internal quarrels.
[/quote]

Were there mages as powerhungry and unable to resist temptation as you imply all mages are that wouldn't matter. And as the others said, they're not the only example.

[quote]
All people abuse their power and if they don't is because they fear
retribution. It is, however, much harder to punish a mage than a mundane
because, unlike a noble who only has the importance society attributes
him, mages have a real power that can't be removed.[/quote]

Is that so? And we have seen mages that don't abuse their power. Anders started out healing people, and it wasn't the need for power that led him to blow up the Chantry, it was the desire for freedom, as much as I don't agree with his methods. Malcolm didn't abuse his powers. Mage Hawke can be plaed as benevolent. Bethany is. The Warden can be played that way, etc, etc. The game does give us enough examples of mage characters that don't abuse their power. Of course there are those that do, but not everyone should be punished because there are nutcases among the decent people as well.


[quote]And when are we supposed to do that? After a blood mage has killed 70 people and moved to the next village?
The Circle diminishs the exposure of mundanes to mages and increases the swiftness of Templar response.[/quote]

I think you vastly overestimate the destructive capabilities of blood mages while you underestimate your Templars. The Warden and Hawke as well as their companions kill countless of blood mages, Hawke and co even take down a magister. And only a single Templar went after the blood mage hideout in Denerim; and nowhere was there any indication that they were causing death on that large a scale.

Besides, I'm also not against Templars being stationed in cities that respond as soon as a mage has committed a crime -- an actual crime, not just a figment of the Templars' imagination -- Unlees they're incompetent. They would do so before mass death occurs. I'm not even against rgualrly checking up on mages to see if evrything is fine, as long as their rights aren't compromised.


[quote]True but a mundane tyrant will be much easier to remove from power than a powerful Magister.
Loghain was removed from power through a fair judging by the Landsmeet. Had he been a blood mage capable of mind control, this would have been impossible.[/quote]

Danarius was still killed. And Logahin wasn't ousted by he vote but by the Warden beating the crap out of him.

Avernus used blood magic to influence nobles during the rebellion and it failed. It's not as easy as you seem to think.


[quote]First, there is no real comparison. You would have a better chance of
defending yourself against your friend than against a mage.
Second,
your friend has a system of justice in place that can prosecute him
should he harm others. In the medieval world of Thedas, such a system
might exist but would be much less efficient. A powerful mage could burn
down an entire village and move to the next one without any fear of
retribution.[/quote]

Then the police -- in this case, the Templars, as they'd be specially trained to handle mages -- aren't doing their job, are they?

Incidentally, I probably wouldn't. Let's just say that I'm... not particularly physically able.


[quote]Danarius,
Hadriana, Danzig, Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Lady Harimann, Gascard, Quentin, Huon, Uldred, Caladrius, the Baroness and pretty much every single magister of Tevinter.
All mages with zero regards for the lives of others.[/quote]

I never said there aren't immoral mages. You, however, imply that mages are incapable of moral behaviour, wich is clearly wrong. There are terrible mages because there are terrible people, no matter their powers. That's still no reason to punish good people for nothing.

I also wonder how many of those -- particularly Decimus, Grace and Tarohne, as much as I loathe them -- have been driven insane by the Circle and the Templars.

[quote]The mages in Teviner are free and I don't need to tell you how things are over there.
Many criminals and terrorists of our world are people who never suffered persecution and they still find reasons to commit crimes.
Right now, mages fight for freedom. Give it to them, and the excuse will be something else.[/quote]

Not all mages, some. Particularly those that are morally bankrupt. Fenris tells us tat the Magisters have no problem enslaving other mages and that by far not all mages in Tevinter get to be free and Magisters.

And you don't know that. You believe they're incapable of being decent people but they aren't. Weed out those that only want death and destruction, let those that only want to be free live in peace. *That* is a worthy goal for the Order.
.

[quote]Of course it will. How many times in the history of both worlds, ours and Thedas, hasn't the anger of populations been turned towards innocents simply because they look like the enemy?

Also, you are confusing necessary security measures with opression.[/quote]

It doesn't have to end like this. Especially not when people see that the mage's cause is just. Again, there are many non-mages helping the mages, I doubt every mage will suddenly turn on them. Some? Surely. The nutcases are everywhere. But not all. Not the majority, the ones that only fought for freedom.

And the Cicles go so far past necessary security measure it's not even funny any more.

[quote]Again, idealism is nice but it tends to be crushed by reality.[/quote]

See above.

[quote]What evidence? Kirkwall, where the templars eventually rose against
Meredith? And where, despite everything, Bethany is quite happy to be in
the Circle?
Ferelden where there is an friendly partnership between Knight Commander and First Enchanter?
[/quote]

Were the Templars eventually rose against Meredith after countless of mages had been abused, turned tranquil and killed. That **** shouldn't happen in the first place.

And I've given examples. Look back in th thread. I've even quoted them to show that they weren't all from Kirkwall.

[quote]
Blood Magic is inherently the most dangerous of all magical arts. It's a gun and it shouldn't be placed in the hands of a child such as Jowan.
If templars who abuse mages must be punished, then the same thing must apply to mages who violate such a simple rule. It's only fair.
[/quote]

It is indeed. And it should't. I do believe that cases should be judged by the individual, but I won't argue that blood magic isn't dangerous.

Even so, there's a difference between Jowan breaking a rule without hurting anybody and a Templar abusing someone.