146 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

There is. On the wrong end of my staff!

Seriously though, if there is a peacemaking faction in DA3 I hope we're allowed to side against them. I'll be willing to accept manadatory training and a system of periodic checks on the mages. Nothing more.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

I'm not sure a realistic compromise is possible when rebel templars and rebel mages want the exact opposite of the other.

The Divine seemed to be in favor of such a thing, though we all know how that turned out...

[Heimdall]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

There is. On the wrong end of my staff!

Seriously though, if there is a peacemaking faction in DA3 I hope we're allowed to side against them. I'll be willing to accept manadatory training and a system of periodic checks on the mages. Nothing more.

That's sort of what I was thinking of, a circle without the mandatory imprisonment aspect though perhaps something more than periodic checks.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
A neighbor that existed because Emperor Drakon I invaded his other neighbors in Exalted Marches to create the Orlesian Empire.

No, he did not. Orlais is expansionist but Exalted Marches are only called when the Faith is threatened, not for political motives. The Exalted Marches were waged against Tevinter by Andraste; the Dales, the Black Chantry and the Qunari.
Some nations might take advantage of this, of course, but no March was ever called against an Andrastian Nation like Ferelden or Nevarra.

Sending in armed and armored soldiers into foreign soil seems like a sign of aggression to me. Especially after the elves kicked out human missionaries because they refused to convert to the Chantry of Andraste. I doubt the templars were invading the Dales to ask for a cup of tea, after all.

First and foremost, treating another races as if its presence and culture is an infection is bound to create hostilities. Had the Dales simply accepted a Chantry in their nation, the templars wouldn't have been sent.

Second, there is no actual proof beyond the words of the Dalish that templars were sent. Even if they were, they could have been there simply to ensure the safety of the missionaries and not to actually attack anyone.

If the Dalish attack was provoked by a prior attack from the Andrastians, the elves were acting in their own defense.

Even if the Chantry sent Templars, attacking an orlesian town is disproportionate retribution.

The elves were placed in Alienages, and have no real alternatives for a better life. They typically have no options to be anything other than servants, which means they make little money,

In Kirkwall, there is an elf in the city guard.
Social inequality exists everywhere, it's still not slavery. No one is forcing the elves to do anything. Even Sarethia agrees.

While the Chantry does nothing to change the minds of the people.

The Chantry treats elves with equality and respect. It was them who ordered all Andrastian nations to give refuge to the elves. There are violent racists on both sides.

Considering the Orlesian Empire invaded Andrastian nations like Nevarra and Ferelden with Chantry support, I respectfully disagree.

Vocal support only.

Remember Orzammar where the dwarves allow a Chantry to be founded which is enough to satisfy the Divine until there are violent attacks against it.
The situations are not the same but allowing a Chantry to be founded in the Dales would show goodwill and wilingness to cooperate which could have prevented the war.
Next step: commerce and diplomacy are peacekeeping tools for a reasons.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Lord Aesir wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Is there any room in this debate for those that believe reformed Circles and Templars are better than no Circles at all?

There is. On the wrong end of my staff!

Seriously though, if there is a peacemaking faction in DA3 I hope we're allowed to side against them. I'll be willing to accept manadatory training and a system of periodic checks on the mages. Nothing more.

That's sort of what I was thinking of, a circle without the mandatory imprisonment aspect though perhaps something more than periodic checks.

Hm. What did you have in mind?

I'm not actually against elementary safety precautions. Possession is a real danger and if something can be done to minimize it without placing an undue burden on mages, I'd be all for it.

All I want is a world where Anders can put his clinic aboveground and Merrill can perform her research without either of them having to hide.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

First and foremost, treating another races as if its presence and culture is an infection is bound to create hostilities. Had the Dales simply accepted a Chantry in their nation, the templars wouldn't have been sent.

I'll buy this argument when the Chantry allows the elves to come in and preach their religion to the people within its lands.

Notice how the Qunari didn't even try to actively gain converts and were nevertheless met with a campaign of sabotage and assassination.

[Wulfram]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I'll buy this argument when the Chantry allows the elves to come in and preach their religion to the people within its lands.

Well, Merrill preached her religion a fair bit.  Though mostly to Hawke's dog.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Notice how the Qunari didn't even try to actively gain converts and were nevertheless met with a campaign of sabotage and assassination.

Which were perpetrated by a templar and a Mother and condemned by the highest Chantry authority on Kirkwall.

[Heimdall]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Hm. What did you have in mind?

I'm not actually against elementary safety precautions. Possession is a real danger and if something can be done to minimize it without placing an undue burden on mages, I'd be all for it.

All I want is a world where Anders can put his clinic aboveground and Merrill can perform her research without either of them having to hide.

I was more or less thinking of Templars acting covertly to watch mages in society, or a single Templar assigned to each Mage on a rotating schedule.  Any major magical research would require registration with the Circle and, depending on what it involved, Templars present (That's just for safety, though I suppose it wouldn't be much use should someone accidentally summon a pride demon).  Blood magic would probably still be forbidden (The potential for abuse is just a bit too much and unnecessary).  It wouldn't be perfect for the mages, nor convenient for the Templars, but the mages would at least be able to go about their lives.  Those that chose not to pursue magical research or a profession that involved magic would probably hardly notice it.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

A neighbor that existed because Emperor Drakon I invaded his other neighbors in Exalted Marches to create the Orlesian Empire.[/quote]

No, he did not. Orlais is expansionist but Exalted Marches are only called when the Faith is threatened, not for political motives. The Exalted Marches were waged against Tevinter by Andraste; the Dales, the Black Chantry and the Qunari. [/quote]

You're mistaken. According to the History of the Chantry, Chapter 4,

"There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Some nations might take advantage of this, of course, but no March was ever called against an Andrastian Nation like Ferelden or Nevarra. [/quote]

No, Orlais simply conquered Nevarra and Ferelden with support from the Andrastian Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Sending in armed and armored soldiers into foreign soil seems like a sign of aggression to me. Especially after the elves kicked out human missionaries because they refused to convert to the Chantry of Andraste. I doubt the templars were invading the Dales to ask for a cup of tea, after all.[/quote]

First and foremost, treating another races as if its presence and culture is an infection is bound to create hostilities. Had the Dales simply accepted a Chantry in their nation, the templars wouldn't have been sent. [/quote]

The elves didn't need to accept a Chantry in their nation when the elves follow another religion, and the Chantry sending armed soldiers to force conversion is entirely on the Chantry for trying to violently impose their religious views on others. The elves shouldn't be blamed for being attacked by the Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Second, there is no actual proof beyond the words of the Dalish that templars were sent. Even if they were, they could have been there simply to ensure the safety of the missionaries and not to actually attack anyone. [/quote]

Sending soldiers into foreign soil tends to be about more than that.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Dalish attack was provoked by a prior attack from the Andrastians, the elves were acting in their own defense.[/quote]

Even if the Chantry sent Templars, attacking an orlesian town is disproportionate retribution. [/quote]

If the town was where templars were stationed, and the elves were trying to protect their people, it was about self-defense.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves were placed in Alienages, and have no real alternatives for a better life. They typically have no options to be anything other than servants, which means they make little money,[/quote]

In Kirkwall, there is an elf in the city guard.
Social inequality exists everywhere, it's still not slavery. No one is forcing the elves to do anything. Even Sarethia agrees. [/quote]

There is one single elf in the City Guard because of Guard-Captain Aveline. And Sarethia's opinion doesn't change the plight the elves face.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...



[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Chantry does nothing to change the minds of the people.[/quote]

The Chantry treats elves with equality and respect. It was them who ordered all Andrastian nations to give refuge to the elves. There are violent racists on both sides. [/quote]

The Chantry removed Shartan from their history, placed elves in ghettos across the continent, and forced them to convert. If the Chantry was benevolent, they would use their influence to actually try to change how people view the elves, instead of doing nothing to change the minds of the Andrastians who see them as less than people. The Chantry isn't as altruistic as you claim.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...



[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Orlesian Empire invaded Andrastian nations like Nevarra and Ferelden with Chantry support, I respectfully disagree. [/quote]

Vocal support only.

Remember Orzammar where the dwarves allow a Chantry to be founded which is enough to satisfy the Divine until there are violent attacks against it. [/quote]

Considering how impregnable Orzammar is, and their sole monopoly on lyrium, that doesn't mean anything.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...


The situations are not the same but allowing a Chantry to be founded in the Dales would show goodwill and wilingness to cooperate which could have prevented the war. [/quote]

No, it wouldn't. Following the Andrastian religion didn't even stop Orlais from conquering Andrastian nations with Chantry support, including its neighbor Ferelden.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Next step: commerce and diplomacy are peacekeeping tools for a reasons.[/quote]

Be sure to convey that to the people in Nevarra and Ferelden.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

So, maybe Orsino had good reasons to suspect of Meredith, but he also did not work towards giving her reasons to trust him.
[/quote]

I think it's pretty much impossible for him to have worked towards making her trust him by Act 3. Saying he should've gone to the Templars about the possible conspiracy when, through meta-game knowledge, we know she was bat**** insane due to the idol at this point is kinda silly.

And you know, she knew about the rebellion too. She could've gone to him saying she knew about what was going on and wanted to work with him.

But, you know, lyrium idol. So that was impossible. So I can't fault Orsino for doing the ultimately better move in the end, considering all we know.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

That rebellion was founded by a templar and destroyed by a blood mage that belongued to the Circle. The Circle of Kirkwall had its fair share of Graces and Huons for the templars to contend with.
[/quote]

It may have had its fair share of them, but the reason I say it's due to plot stupidity is because the writing is so abhorrently bad, and stems back to Decimus' quest being poorly written as well.

Seriously, Best Served Cold makes no ****ing sense if you play as a pro-mage person.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the quest itself makes no sense from the perspective of a consistently pro-mage Hawke.

1) I can denounce Meredith and tell her that she needs to step down. I can agree with Orsino for that matter.

2) I can talk to Thrask, who flat out states that he knows I support the First Enchanter.

3) When I do end up doing this quest, a bunch of Templars and Mages say "We know you're spying for Orsino!" like that's a bad thing. It isn't. The man who is against Meredith sends out the Champion who is also against Meredith to ascertain the truth of why the Mages are going out at night. How is that a bad thing?

4) I go to the Wounded Coast and suddenly Thrask thinks I'm supporting Meredith, for no reason whatsoever.

Bah. It's as if the writers took a downward spiral into the jaws of oblivion where any semblance of a plot was deemed unimportant.[/quote]

So yea... makes no sense.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

No, it indicates they noticed the city was under attack and decided to fight the qunari.
[/quote]

Being caught in the crossfire doesn't mean that was their original reason for being there. Their reason for being there in the first place is never given, so we're free to assume what their original intent was until it ended up changing to suit the needs of the current crisis: the Qunari assault on Kirkwall.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Which they searched.
[/quote]

No they didn't. Emeric did, and it led nowhere. Hawke did, and it led somewhere. When Emeric presented everything Hawke had discovered to his superiors and relayed the information on the shades to them, they said it was a matter for the City Guard. And the City Guard didn't care either.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Only the player sees that.
[/quote]

I believe Hawke looks directly at him.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Thrask was a good man who trusted mages and look at what happened to him. Murdered by one.
[/quote]

By plot stupidity if you're pro-mage.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

She is harsh, no doubt, but I hesitate to denounce her ways when she wasn't being influentied by the Idol based solely on the words of Thrask and Orsino.
[/quote]

Yea, I find it hard to defend her when her own Templars were breaking the rules and weren't reprimanded. Mages were routinely beaten -- you can hear them being beaten, as well as hear a scared Mage and a Tranquil Mage say they'll be beaten if they talk to civilians.

Alrik's own illegal Tranquilizations could not have escaped the notice of the First Enchanter and the Knight Commander, as all Tranquilizations require the approval of both the FE and the KC -- per Origins.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially since the law of the Circles says that Tranquilization shall be authorized by both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter. And the letter from Ser Alrik to Ser Bardel implies -- and I choose to take it as such -- that Meredith was informed of the illegal tranquilizations.

Some people believe that Meredith was never informed at all, though.

So, we can come to a few conclusions based on that:

1) Meredith knew about the illegal Tranquilizations and authorized them, but told her charges not to tell Orsino
2) Meredith didn't know and was therefore either incompetent or just didn't care when more Tranquil mages popped up. Because if more pop up -- Tranquil that she never authorized to be made Tranquil -- then she should've investigated. But no investigation was called for on Alrik.

Either way, it's damning of Meredith[/quote]

So yea, her methods aren't really defendable.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Corypheus is an extremely powerful Emissary and its prison was filled with magic and demons to the brim. His presence might have influenced the state of the Veil and the dominion of demons over Kirkwall.
[/quote]

Because the Architect who's also an extremely powerful emissary causes Demons to come out of the woodwork all the time.

Oh wait, he doesn't.

The Enigma of Kirkwall codex specifically states that the reason why the Veil is thin is due to the Magisters of Old having deliberately thinned it with the blood of countless slaves, and the ruins where such things happened are still in Kirkwall.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

The dalish have a smaller population which means fewer mages. That way, the Keeper can dedicate all of his or her attention to a small number of apprentices and make absolutely sure they are prepared.
[/quote]

We actually don't know how big each individual clan is or how many clans there are. We do know based upon our ability to kill Zathrian's clan that his clan had more then just two Mages. And Marethari's clan ended up sheltering a few Elven Mages after Merrill left -- some were the subjects of fetch quests.

But, based on the cinematic showing the Elves marching -- and we don't know how many clans those were -- we can deduce one thing: There are a lot more ****ing Elves then we thought.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

We don't know enough about the Chansing but the Rivaini Seers are known to let themselves be possessed which doesn't inspire trust from my part.
[/quote]

I'll admit, until I see more about the Rivaini Seers I too am wary of what they do. As for the Chasind culture, I'm not sure if this is strictly related to one person or an element of the culture itself: The Chasind Warrior we fight in MotA says that he knew how to break Mages, saying that the Circle isn't the only way Mages can be turned insane.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

It is not a practice I'd like to see in Andrastian Society.
[/quote]

Neither would I, but you have to admit that if you focus on the other areas more then just the malicious arcane arts, there's a lot to learn from Tevinter. Even Wynne says that Minrathous has the largest library on the arcane in all of Thedas and how she really wants to learn from it.

If you toss out the baby with the bathwater in regards to the magic Tevinter knows, then that's just absurd.

It was a Tevinter Magister who researched the methods of fighting demonic possession using blood magic as a basis. The whole "You need venom for antivenom" type of thing.

So there's a lot to learn from Tevinter, both good and bad.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

I am fully in favor of granting the mages limited freedom altough I suspect we would disagree on just how much.[/quote]

Maybe. Maybe not. That all depends on what you'd grant.



[quote]Vigilance must be mantained[/quote]

I agree the Templars are necessary, though I'd prefer to not have them be the ones with authority over the lives of the Mages. I'm not saying the Mages should be their own watchers, but the Templars probably shouldn't be either. Not unless they're told that they don't have "authority over the Mages by divine right" and are just as accountable for their actions as the Mages are for theirs.

I'd also have a contingent of Seekers in every Circle, preferably recruited from all walks of life and beliefs. So you'd have Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Kossith (if you could find any, which would make that concept art thing have an in-game representation), and Mages.

But don't take this as the full extent of how I'd reform the system. It isn't. It's only one minor summarized snippet of what I'd do.



[quote]MisterJB wrote... however, so long as it impossible to distinguish the Tarhones from the Bethanys at a glance.[/quote]

One moment...

http://t2.gstatic.co...Vk9xivaa-LZrCF1

http://t1.gstatic.co...8bT3g3or6OSq0_-

I think it's pretty easy to tell who the insane clown is here, even from a glance

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is one single elf in the City Guard because of Guard-Captain Aveline

We can deduce though from Aveline's ready acceptance of an Elf in the Guard that she may have recruited others.

It's never demonstrated in-game aside from Lia, but it can be either/or. Either Lia's the only Elven member of the Guard, or she's one of the Elven members of the guard.

I'm sure Aveline would understand an Elf's position in the Guard among the minds of humans, considering she was a Fereldan in the Guard amongst Kirkwallers.

[Xilizhra]

I think it's pretty easy to tell who the insane clown is here, even from a glance

Where did she even find periwinkle lipstick?

[Face of Evil]

In fairness, even if Hawke speaks out against Meredith, s/he still ends up tracking down three rebel mages that Thrask's conspiracy is implied to have set loose. Thrask disappears from the Gallows the second you complete that quest.

Any other action taken against a pro-mage Hawke by Thrask can be chalked up to Grace's influence. I imagined she convinced Thrask that Hawke was actually co-operating with Meredith and she would say absolutely anything to get revenge on Hawke. Thrask's real mistake was believing he could trust that cow.

Xilizhra wrote...

Where did she even find periwinkle lipstick?

It's the same shade that desire demons use. 

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 septembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[TEWR]

Face of Evil wrote...

In fairness, even if Hawke speaks out against Meredith, s/he still ends up tracking down three rebel mages that Thrask's conspiracy is implied to have set loose. Thrask disappears from the Gallows the second you complete that quest.

I'm not so sure he does. I think he's still there until you either read the letter about the next quest or talk to the person in charge.

But even so, if he disappeared after that quest is completed, the fact that the Templars and Mages say "We know you're spying for Orsino" automatically makes the quest have no semblance of sense. Because well, there is no sense from that. At least with the original "We know you're spying for Meredith" moment in the pre-patched versions, your explanation would've been slightly better in conjunction with the fact that you assisted Meredith  previously.

Though I do wish that if I sided with Orsino, he gave me On the Loose and not Meredith. I mean, what possible in-game reason is there for the person who's siding against Meredith to actually go and see her?

Face of Evil wrote...

And of course, she just wants revenge on Hawke for killing Decimus.

I'm not against that being a reason for her fighting Hawke in that quest, but I take issue with how the whole Grace and Decimus plot line was handled. That entire arc could've allowed for divergent paths that wouldn't have necessitated import flags, but would've easily showcased the merits to both sides' arguments.

I mean really, I think we can all agree the entire arc could've been better handled, for both sides.

Xilizhra wrote...

Where did she even find periwinkle lipstick?

That is a question better left unanswered.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Xilizhra]

Though I do wish that if I sided with Orsino, he gave me On the Loose and not Meredith. I mean, what possible in-game reason is there for the person who's siding against Meredith to actually go and see her?

Well, do you really want to ignore Meredith?

[SeptimusMagistos]

I agree that Best Served Cold was badly handled. My additional complaint is that when Cullen shows up with some loyalist Templars my Hawke suddenly decides to let the Templars make an arrest. Why wouldn't he just slaughter the Templars? He hates Cullen and everything Cullen stands for.

On The Loose was okay, though. If you take the aggressive path it essentially comes down to you telling Meredith that you'll check out the apostates and quite possibly decide to help them escape and there's nothing she can do about it. Then you can follow up on that with at least one of them. Good times.

[Fiacre]

Especially since at least mage Hawke can be quite simply blackmailed into helping her. And then still decide he'd rather let Emille escape.

[Wulfram]

Valendrian, the Denerim Alienage elder, says he had hoped to get the city elf warden into the town guard. I think the implication is that there aren't elves in the town guard and he was hoping that the PC being awesome would get them in, but it's not really clear.

If there were elves in the guard in Act 2, you'd have to guess the two elves would have gone to them rather than taking the law into their own hands. And that elvish guards would have done something about the magistrates son in Act 1. So my conclusion is that Lia being a guard is a new thing, maybe in fact Aveline's reaction to the failure of the guards to deal properly with the allegations against one of it's members.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think it's pretty much impossible for him to have worked towards making her trust him by Act 3. Saying he should've gone to the Templars about the possible conspiracy when, through meta-game knowledge, we know she was bat**** insane due to the idol at this point is kinda silly.

And you know, she knew about the rebellion too. She could've gone to him saying she knew about what was going on and wanted to work with him.

But, you know, lyrium idol. So that was impossible. So I can't fault Orsino for doing the ultimately better move in the end, considering all we know. [/quote]
I can because Orsino didn’t have the knowledge we do. Thus, I stand by what I said previously. While Orsino had good reasons to distrust Meredith, he certainly didn’t give her any reasons to trust him.

[quote]
3) When I do end up doing this quest, a bunch of Templars and Mages say "We know you're spying for Orsino!" like that's a bad thing. It isn't. The man who is against Meredith sends out the Champion who is also against Meredith to ascertain the truth of why the Mages are going out at night. How is that a bad thing?
[/quote]
I don’t disagree that quest could have been better written but the fact Thraks was unwilling to trust Orsino seems telling to me.
Orsino has shown an unwillingness to work with templar on four separate occasions; one of which he almost reached Meredith and Anders levels of paranoia; and, eventually, lost his sanity without any red lyrium helping him along the way.


[quote]
Being caught in the crossfire doesn't mean that was their original reason for being there. Their reason for being there in the first place is never given, so we're free to assume what their original intent was until it ended up changing to suit the needs of the current crisis: the Qunari assault on Kirkwall. [/quote]
There is nothing that leads me to believe the reason of their presence there wasn’t simply the most obvious.
I certainly can’t accept it as evidence that Orsino was working against Quentin in secret.

[quote]
No they didn't. Emeric did, and it led nowhere. Hawke did, and it led somewhere. When Emeric presented everything Hawke had discovered to his superiors and relayed the information on the shades to them, they said it was a matter for the City Guard. And the City Guard didn't care either. [/quote]
You are correct regarding the templars. Only Emeric searched the warehouse. However, the city guard did follow some of Emeric’s leads.

[quote]
I believe Hawke looks directly at him. [/quote]
I believe Hawke looks in the general direction but only after Quentin is out of sight.

[quote]
By plot stupidity if you're pro-mage. [/quote]
Grace’s betrayal is not influenced by plot stupidity.

[quote]
Yea, I find it hard to defend her when her own Templars were breaking the rules and weren't reprimanded. Mages were routinely beaten -- you can hear them being beaten, as well as hear a scared Mage and a Tranquil Mage say they'll be beaten if they talk to civilians.

Alrik's own illegal Tranquilizations could not have escaped the notice of the First Enchanter and the Knight Commander, as all Tranquilizations require the approval of both the FE and the KC -- per Origins.

So yea, her methods aren't really defendable. [/quote]
Her methods didn’t include Tranqulizing Harrowed mages without a purpose.
Her failure to prevent Alrik from abusing his charges must be taken into account, of course, if we were trying to determine whether or not she was a good Knight Commander but the worth of lack thereof of her methods is not dependent upon her ability to prosecute corrupt templars.
Thrask and Orsino claim her initial methods were harsh and I might even believe them but “harsh” doesn’t automatically equal “wrong”.

[quote]
Because the Architect who's also an extremely powerful emissary causes Demons to come out of the woodwork all the time.

Oh wait, he doesn't.

The Enigma of Kirkwall codex specifically states that the reason why the Veil is thin is due to the Magisters of Old having deliberately thinned it with the blood of countless slaves, and the ruins where such things happened are still in Kirkwall. [/quote]
The Architect’s state of mind and situation were entirely different from Corypheus.
A Grey Warden(?) theorizes in Legacy that Corypheus may be responsible for the number of demons that constantly threaten Kirkwall. That doesn’t exclude the Magisters also thinning the Veil.

[quote]
We actually don't know how big each individual clan is or how many clans there are. We do know based upon our ability to kill Zathrian's clan that his clan had more then just two Mages. And Marethari's clan ended up sheltering a few Elven Mages after Merrill left -- some were the subjects of fetch quests.

But, based on the cinematic showing the Elves marching -- and we don't know how many clans those were -- we can deduce one thing: There are a lot more ****ing Elves then we thought. [/quote]
We know that they don’t have the numbers to march an army and that mages are traded between clans if they are not needed.
There are a lot less elves than there are humans which, naturally, means there are even less elven mages.

[quote]
Neither would I, but you have to admit that if you focus on the other areas more then just the malicious arcane arts, there's a lot to learn from Tevinter. Even Wynne says that Minrathous has the largest library on the arcane in all of Thedas and how she really wants to learn from it.

If you toss out the baby with the bathwater in regards to the magic Tevinter knows, then that's just absurd.

It was a Tevinter Magister who researched the methods of fighting demonic possession using blood magic as a basis. The whole "You need venom for antivenom" type of thing.

So there's a lot to learn from Tevinter, both good and bad. [/quote]
Of course. I am in favor of studying the techniques of the Magisters so as to reduce the dangers of magic and demons. But that study should be conducted by experienced mages who have given proof of strong morality. Mages such as Wynne, not Jowan.
And experiments should be conducted in the presence of templars. Not in the apprentice's halls after "ligths out".
[quote]
I think it's pretty easy to tell who the insane clown is here, even from a glance [/quote]
Where all evil mages as easy to identify as Tahrone, Thedas would be a safer place, no doubt.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 septembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Fiacre]

I've done The First Sacrifice just yesterday and it did look like Hawke noticed Quentin. If the look he got was enough to give a detailed description, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure he saw him. Even so, a missing -- and probably butchered -- Circle Mage, a bunch of Shades, a suspicious man, possibly, even likely, a blood mage... Neither the City Guard nor the Templars showed themselves to be particularly competent there.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

I can because Orsino didn’t have the knowledge we do. Thus, I stand by what I said previously. While Orsino had good reasons to distrust Meredith, he certainly didn’t give her any reasons to trust him.[/quote]

And she didn't trust him at all or give him reasons to trust her, even when he brought up valid points. When he tells her the purpose of the Templar Order exists to defend the people from magic, mages from the people, and to serve the Chantry her response is that no one should tell her what her place is.

And many people suspected -- and Meredith's actions only cemented those suspicions -- that she was off her rocker.

[quote]
I don’t disagree that quest could have been better written but the fact Thraks was unwilling to trust Orsino seems telling to me.[/quote]

It wasn't Thrask that said it. It was some other Templar during the Hightown meeting. When you confront Thrask at the Wounded Coast, he says "Why do you support Meredith?".

Which makes it all the more perplexing as he not only said earlier in the Gallows that he knew Hawke supported the First Enchanter, but also stated that he agreed with the First Enchanter.

[quote]
Orsino has shown an unwillingness to work with templar on four separate occasions; one of which he almost reached Meredith and Anders levels of paranoia; and, eventually, lost his sanity without any red lyrium helping him along the way.[/quote]

Orsino showed an unwillingness to work with Templars on trying to apprehend rogue Mages, due to a justified fear that the RoA would be brought down upon the Mages. And this is due to most of Kirkwall's Templars being ****s like Karras and Alrik, as Tobrius states. Tobrius states that men like Ser Maarevar Carver are few and far between in Kirkwall and have steadily been decreasing in number during the years.

He, however, was not unwilling to allow the rebellion against Meredith to flourish or to even assist in it. He was hesitant though, because he 1) didn't know why the Mages were going out at night, 2) couldn't leave the Gallows to investigate without Meredith accusing him of being a part of it -- something she accuses him of being a part of anyway, and 3) didn't know Templars were involved.

Orsino is not an unreasonable man, as Elthina herself notes. He supports the Circle and the Chantry, but is only against Meredith and her like-minded cronies. He is the perfect person to be a part of the rebellion, and the fact that the quest is a colossal failure in writing from a pro-mage perspective is all that matters.

And he only loses his sanity due to 1) poor writing of that concept, when it could've been done better and 2) the Templars calling an unjustified RoA down upon the Mages.

Also, I can only recall 3 scenarios where he was unwilling to work with the Templars. Quentin, BSC, and the endgame argument.  But even then, in Best Served Cold it was due to a lack of information. If you tell him he can't spare blood mages because of fear of the Templars, his response isn't that he wouldn't hand them over.

It's that he didn't know enough to talk to the Templars. And if Hawke says he'll stop the Mages, he asks only that you do so if they're doing something sinister, as he doesn't want to deny them what small freedoms they have to sneak out of the Gallows to obtain if they're not doing something malicious.

He wasn't unwilling to work with the Templars in that quest. He just didn't have enough information to go off of, other then that he knew Mages were going out at night -- sometimes for days at a time. Which Meredith also knew, and could've approached him about in a gentle fashion if she actually wanted to work with him.

And as I said, Meredith never trusted him to begin with. Even when Hawke says Orsino wasn't involved, her reply is that he's involved, is a blood mage, and has his hooks in the Champion. So Orsino couldn't work with her. You can't create trust with someone who won't ever trust you, no matter what you do.

Hell, in the endgame he's willing to let the Templars search the Tower with him helping them so long as the Templars don't kill them all for an act they had nothing to do with! He's not unwilling to work with them. But Meredith didn't make the conditions of the Gallows conducive to such an option. She kept oppressing the Mages, and then used their acts of desperation as grounds to oppress them further.

Even when Orsino was willing to assist her -- as the Circles are supposed to operate, with the KC and FE working together -- she refuses to do such a thing, with a poor attempt to try and justify her desire to kill all the mages.

Meredith was always the problem. Orsino didn't have to work to create trust with her, because she wasn't willing to trust Orsino or even accept his aid. It would've been a futile gesture, and it's one he does indeed try and Meredith shows she's willing to give disproportionate retribution for Anders' crime.


[quote]
There is nothing that leads me to believe the reason of their presence there wasn’t simply the most obvious.
I certainly can’t accept it as evidence that Orsino was working against Quentin in secret.[/quote]

You don't have to believe that's why they were there. That's what headcanon means: believing what you want. All you have to do is acknowledge that it's a possibility.



[quote]
You are correct regarding the templars. Only Emeric searched the warehouse. However, the city guard did follow some of Emeric’s leads. [/quote]

But they didn't secure the foundry after Hawke tells Emeric about the Shades there. They didn't investigate further.

And at this point, any time Demons were involved in something we witnessed -- see the Tarohne quest -- **** was about to hit the fan.


[quote]
I believe Hawke looks in the general direction but only after Quentin is out of sight.[/quote]

We may need to consult a video of the quest to find out the real answer.

[quote]
Grace’s betrayal is not influenced by plot stupidity.[/quote]

The entire quest is founded on it. Conceptually, there was potential for the idea of Grace fighting the Champion due to feelings of grief and sadness over Decimus' death, but I don't think it was pulled off well -- ultimately stemming back to Decimus' quest being poorly handled IMO.

I say this not as a pro-mage person, but as a writer. It also doesn't help make her seem a sympathetic person if she's just another Abomination.

[quote]
Her methods didn’t include Tranqulizing Harrowed mages without a purpose.[/quote]

Oh really? I'm sorry, but I fail to see how she could've let Alrik continue as long as he did if she wasn't A) okay with what he was doing or incredibly incompetent.

You can't fail to notice something like more Harrowed Mages being made Tranquil.

So she either didn't have a problem with it and didn't authorize it officially or she's just a failure of a Knight-Commander.


[quote]
Her failure to prevent Alrik from abusing his charges must be taken into account, of course, if we were trying to determine whether or not she was a good Knight Commander but the worth of lack thereof of her methods is not dependent upon her ability to prosecute corrupt templars.[/quote]

Yes it is. If she cannot make the Circle a better environment for Mages and Templars to work together by weeding out the criminals in her own ranks -- this is a military order, after all -- then she is a failure as a Knight-Commander.

The Circle should be a place where Mages don't feel like they have to go with open arms into the embrace of a Demon just to get justice, or become a blood mage.

She is accountable for all of the Templars under her command, with the only person in Kirkwall having more authority then her on the Templars' punishment for abusing their charges being the Grand Cleric.

[quote]
Thrask and Orsino claim her initial methods were harsh and I might even believe them but “harsh” doesn’t automatically equal “wrong”.[/quote]

Given what we've seen of Meredith's measures, where anti-Mage policies were instituted immediately upon her coming to the position of Knight-Commander, I'd say they are wrong.

If you're going to secure the population's well-being by making the Mages live in isolated fortresses, then taking away their limited freedoms is not going to make the situation any better. We've seen free Mages who have not turned to blood magic or become Abominations, but we've seen many oppressed Mages do just that.

[quote]
The Architect’s state of mind and situation were entirely different from Corypheus.
A Grey Warden(?) theorizes in Legacy that Corypheus may be responsible for the number of demons that constantly threaten Kirkwall. That doesn’t exclude the Magisters also thinning the Veil.[/quote]

Yes, it was a Grey Warden who penned that speculative codex. But Larius himself states that Corypheus can only influence beings with the Taint. If he could influence other people that weren't tainted, why don't the rest of the companions act as if they're under his control? Because all we ever see in Legacy -- both in-game and through codex -- are people who are tainted being controlled by Corypheus. That codex has no real basis other then being a simple conspiracy theory.

And I'm not saying that the Magisters couldn't have thinned the Veil. But that'd become horrible writing if the Magisters did it out of Corypheus assuming direct control as opposed to them having some specific purpose of their own in mind.



[quote]
We know that they don’t have the numbers to march an army[/quote]

Arguable, given what we see in DAO's cinematic. Each clan isn't an army in size, but all of the clans together are. 

[quote]
and that mages are traded between clans if they are not needed.[/quote]

Yet we also see in the clans -- all two of them we've met anyway -- that there were more then just two mages, not accounting for children.

[quote]
There are a lot less elves than there are humans which, naturally, means there are even less elven mages.[/quote]

Well, we don't really know the ratio of Elven Circle Mages. All we know is that amongst the Dalish, the gift of magic is becoming increasingly rare. That says nothing about Elves as a whole, as most Elves are City Elves living in squalor or in the Circles.


[quote]
Of course. I am in favor of studying the techniques of the Magisters so as to reduce the dangers of magic and demons. But that study should be conducted by experienced mages who have given proof of strong morality. Mages such as Wynne, not Jowan.[/quote]

Jowan's one I would debate, as I see him as experienced enough -- though he could stand to have more training, certainly -- and being one of strong morality.

He's just a naive, bumbling fool. But if spared and told to run from Redcliffe, he protects refugees from the Blight using his blood magic.

On the whole though, I agree that it should be done by experienced Mages like Wynne, Merrill, Bethany, and Feynriel.

[quote]
And experiments should be conducted in the presence of templars. Not in the apprentice's halls after "ligths out".
[/quote]

I also agree with this, but only if those Templars are like Gregoir, Thrask, and Emeric. Which should go without saying really.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .