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[ShadowLordXII]

Let's face, if it wasn't for Flemeth and the Warden then Ferelden would've been screwed.

With the Ferelden Grey Wardens brought down to two junior members, it's king dead, and it's nobles scrabbling with each other over honestly petty concerns compared to the blight, the darkspawn were already practicing and setting the stage for their nation-wide victory parade over the barren wastes formerly known as Ferelden.  Even Uthemiel was going to take a front-row seat for the occassion and looked forward to mabari puppy flavored barbecues with choruses of women being horrifically turned into Broodmothers.

At least that's what would've happened if the Warden hadn't been there.

Even if they didn't all believe that the darkspawn assault was a true Blight, you'd think that these nobles would work together however they could to stop the darkspawn.  They didn't.

For whatever rhyme or reason, they thought that it would be a splended idea to start killing each other even while several areas north of Ostagar could already see the darkspawn approach.

So let's take a look at the culprits, shall we?

Loghain:

Most rightfully assume Loghain to be the primary instigator of the Civil War.  Afterall, he left Cailan to die at Ostagar, declared himself Regent over Ferelden without the Bannorn's consent and demanded the Bannorn's allegiance in a manner far too similar to a certain occupation that was fresh in Ferelden's mind.  Then he attempted to seize their compliance with force, pretty much beginning the Civil War and never gave an inch in his belief that the Blight was an Orleisan hoax.

On further research, perhaps the Civil War wasn't completely his fault.  He apparently had nothing to do with Howe's more audacious atrocities (The Cousland massacre, torturing people in his basement, embezzlement of Fereldend's treasury).  But the fact remains that he was too stubborn and short-sighted to see the real threat and focused on an imaginary one.

Queen Anora:

Personally, I think she gets too much of a pass.  Sure you could say that Loghain and Howe overruled her due to their manpower and influence, but that makes her a weak ruler, no?  She should still have the authority to put her father in line and tell him that he's an idiot, but she choked and followed his lead even though she didn't fully trust what he was doing.

As Queen, she should have enough influence to turn Loghain's own men against him in a bloodless coup and if Howe does anything, command the city guard to arrest him for treason.  He may be Arl of Denerem, but the guards still answer to the ruling monarch, right?  She never excercised any authority of the sort and just allowed the Civil War to continue.  She didn't try anything until the Warden arrives and then she'll even backstab you if you tell her up front that her father will have to pay for his crimes.

King Cailan:

I wouldn't blame him as much seeing as that he had the right intentions and he was dead by the time the Civil War started, but he shares some potential responsibility.

Mainly by dying.

What made him think that a run-down fortress that had been abandoned for centuries would be a great place to take on the entire Darkspawn horde in a straight-up fight?  And with only a few Arls and one Teryn present with their armies.  He should've picked a better spot such as a location that is much more defensible and...closer to the Orlesian border?  The people that you were trying to form an alliance with and hoped would send help?  Why not make it easier by bringing the fight closer to their doorstep?  Instead on the souther tip of civilization far away for even your own troops?  Close to a swamp and forest with lots of places for the enemy to hide and build tunnels to infiltrate your run-down fortress?

Because...isn't that EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID?

To be fair, he trusted Loghain and Loghain made up the battle plan before ditching the kid to die.  At the same time though...as king, he should learn better than to naively trust anyone.  Didn't Maric tell Cailan about all the times that Loghain backstabbed him?

Warden-Commander Duncan:

Duncan is a cool guy, but he could've done a bit better.

Sure, he only had so much to work with.  The Grey Wardens were only let back into Ferelden twenty years ago and there are only a few dozen at the time of Ostagar.  Duncan had to tred carefully in both counsel and recruitment. That said, did decently with the limited resources that he had.

Except for Ostagar.

Why?  Oh why?  Why did he think that every single Grey Warden in Ferelden had to be at Ostagar?  Why didn't he only bring twenty and leave the rest at another location like Denerem or Redcliffe or West Hill in case something goes horribly wrong?  Especially since the only way to kill an Archdemon is to throw a Grey Warden at it? Hmm...then again, Duncan's plan did work out for the best-

Nevermind...it only worked because there's an old woman in the swamps who can turn into a dragon and she liked the Warden and Alistair enough to save them.

Lady Isolde:

Not indirectly, though she can be blamed for the absence of Eamon's stabilizing influence.

Everything Isolde does from the moment that she hid Connor's magic from Eamon unti the Warden resolves the resultant crisis is an EPIC FAIL!  For starters, because she actually hired an apostate who ran away from the Circle (double no-no in Chantry Law) who was sent by Loghain (someone that Eamon doesn't trust) to train her magical son (who shouldn't even be there).

By this one act, she allowed Jowan to be perfect position to poison Eamon and everything got worst from there.

The Bannorn:

As mentioned, the bannorn's reasons for revolt were completely legit.  Some did rebel because they suspected Loghain, others did so because of his self-declaration as regent...but there were some who didn't like seeing a commoner (Anora) on the throne and others who used the Civil War to settle their own disputes that had nothing to do with Loghain or the Blight.

Not to mention that without enough rational minds such as Teryn Bryce Cousland, Bann Teagan (He went to Redcliffe) or Arl Eamon around...they fell into the same rut as Loghain.  They saw Loghain as Orlais Reincarnate and threw everything at him to protect their sovereignty and land rights...unfortunately, this also left them vulnerable to the Blight and folk such as Arl Wulff were left with nothing because of an inability to see the true threat.

You'd think that they'd at least be willing to listen to Loghain if only to have some kind of united front against the hordes of darkness marching towards them holding up a pole with dead Cailan as a morbid battle flag.  You'd think that they would try to work out a compromise.  Even the templars and mages were willing to work together against the qunari in DA2 and even against the Blight in DA:O, so why can't these common folk do so?

So whose to blame?

My conclusion is that it was a combination of everyone involved.

Sure it's easy to blame Loghain for doing everything wrong, but those people who stood around and even above him have just as much responsibility for not doing what they could've done.

Anyone have their own Conclusion?  Anyone else who could be blamed? Other related thoughts?

[Jedimaster88]

I think thats about it. Howe should be in the list. He is a big player in all this with all his own acts and he is just the sort of guy that everyone just LOVE to hate. Remember we are talking about a man who made vipers seem pleasant or something.

(You havent answered to my message, you may have been busy so I thought I would mention it just in case. Waiting for your reply whenever you can )

[Vanilka]

I think I've made quite a few excellent points, ShadowLordXII.

Loghain definitely plays a huge part in the whole farce but I also wouldn't blame him for the whole civil war. Even though he did some pretty horrendous things, I think it was because he genuinely wanted to save Ferelden and he believed there's no one else left to do it. Unfortunately, he isn't much of a politician - I can see how his usurping power looks bad to the other nobles. His seeing Orlesians behind every corner, which by the way makes him refuse Orlesian help that would have come in handy both at Ostagar and later, and not believing the darkspawn were a threat, despite what happened in Ostagar, was a mistake. Another thing is that some of his methods are... questionable at best as he grows more and more desperate.

Anora, as you say, should have known better than to be pushed aside. On the other hand, she seems to believe that her "father only does what is best" which she also tells Teagan after Ostagar. Who else could help Ferelden if not Maric's right hand and the Hero of the River Dane? I can't tell whether she realised what exactly happened at Ostagar and I agree she shouldn't have let anybody to do her job for her but I can see how she might think it was for the best in the time of crisis. I imagine it was too late when she got aware of the fact that a good strategist doesn't necessarily have to be a good ruler. I don't think you can just come and go as you please in this position.

Cailan was a fool. I mean, I like the character, he's... exactly as Wynne says, like a puppy. He's a boy who wants to play a hero and forge his own legend. That's cute and fine and all, but I think he underestimated the whole situation, didn't bother to wait for reinforcements. His idea to stand in the front line was wonderful for morale and quite admirable, but terrible if he wanted to see another day. When the battle started, he made a lot of mistakes - as other posters mentioned about a million times before, it's probably BioWare's fault, not Loghain's or Cailan's. The fact is, he should have fired more than just one array of arrows. There were balistas on the bridge and they should have been firing like there was no tomorrow - which actually wasn't for them, now that I think about it. They shouldn't have charged into an open space. Why didn't they let the enemies approach instead? Take down as many as they can before they get close? They could have placed traps there, too. Etc. Etc. And how is that a place as crucial as the Tower of Ishal was allowed to be overrun by darkspawn? And where did all the mages go? I know nothing about warfare, yet even I can see what the greatest strategist of Ferelden and his king did wrong.
The reason they battled at Ostagar, however, was that the darkspawn were coming from the Wilds and Ostagar was the only choke point on the way to Ferelden. It's stated multiple times that if the darkspawn get through Ostagar, Ferelden is lost. Therefore they couldn't take the battle to the Orlesian border. It's too far. Maybe the darkspawn would consider moving there if Cailan sent them a nicely written letter... but I have my doubts about that.

Ah, poor Duncan. I still wonder why he wasn't more sharing when it came to information. I understand that the Joining and the reason the Wardens are needed are a secret but he could at least let Loghain and Cailan know that the Archie wouldn't die if anybody except a Warden killed it. Maybe the two last surviving Wardens wouldn't have had assassins nipping at their heels then.
Why he brought all the Wardens is also beyond my understanding. I do believe in having a plan B at all times.
There's also a possibility that not all of them were at Ostagar but they might have fled after Loghain started to hunt them. Their chances at fighting the Blight AND Loghain were equal to zero, suppossing there were only a handful of them after Ostagar. If there were any left, they had better chances in Orlais.
I find it somewhat scary that Alistair and the Warden escaped death by pure luck and, by pure chance again, still possessed the treaties.

As for Isolde, you're right in that if she hadn't hired Jowan, Eamon might have been able to stand up against Loghain. I can understand that she didn't want to send her son away but I agree that hiring random apostates wasn't exactly smart. Then she sends the Wardens chasing after some "magical dust" when they should be doing something else.
However, I'm not so sure Loghain wouldn't have found a different way how to get rid of Eamon.

The Bannorn, as you say, instead of uniting in order to defeat a common foe - be it Loghain or Blight - they start fighting and plotting against each other. At the end, everybody does nothing. I wonder what would have happened if the Warden and Alistair had died at Ostagar. I'm sure the sight of all the nobles getting bitten in the butt by darkspawn they didn't find all that important would be quite hilarious... in a morbid way.

Long story short, the civil war was an unfortunate series of mistakes and bad decisions, coming from more than one person. I think that at the end of the day, I can agree with you in almost everything. Maybe I would leave out Duncan out of equation. I don't see him as perfect, he made his own mistakes. But think he did all he could to ensure the darkspawn wouldn't get past Ostagar. He counted on Loghain's forces and Loghain's forces turned their back on him and the king. Nobody expected that to happen. Also Isolde. While I can't stand the character, she only wanted to help her son. In a stupid way, but she wasn't the first one nor the last one who wanted to save their beloved from the Circle. She was only unfortunate enough to pick a wrong apostate. (Which doesn't make it right but I, personally, am not a big fan of Chantry's way of dealing with mages.) As I said, I do believe Loghain would find another way. However, I must admit all this contributed to all the mess.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Get Magna Carter]

1) the archdemon - without it there would be no blight
2) Loghain -His ego led to him overreaching his abilities and making a mess of everything in the mistaken belief that everyone would do what he told them. His preoccupation with Orlais and disbelief in the blight blocked the grey warden reinforcements,
3) King Cailan - naivete, excessive romantic notions...and the dodgy status of his marriage were significant, well-meaning but should have been more open to advice to keep out of the battle.

I give Anora a pass...she was caught in a bad situation choosing whether to allow her father make a mess of things (when she had limited knowledge of what was going on and so not really able to decide herself) or stamp down her authority as queen and have her strong, war-hero father thrown out of the palace (maybe into a dungeon...)

[Corker]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Queen Anora:

Personally, I think she gets too much of a pass.

  What fandom are you in?  Anora's regularly demonized as an evil ice queen with unseemly burning ambition where her tender womanly heart should be.

[ShadowLordXII]

Corker wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Queen Anora:

Personally, I think she gets too much of a pass.

  What fandom are you in?  Anora's regularly demonized as an evil ice queen with unseemly burning ambition where her tender womanly heart should be.

I know that Anora is well-hated in a good chunk of the fanbase, but I hardly hear anyone cite her as a contribution to the Civil War.  Most people either blame Loghain or Cailan.

[Blazomancer]

I blame the stupid Maker for cursing the old magister lords and sending them back as the first darkspawns, which instigated the routine of Blights. After all, not everybody (other humans and other races besides the Tevinter Magister lords) on the planet went to conquer the golden city. Why should everyone be punished? The maker's creation is flawed. Damn.

[Corker]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

I know that Anora is well-hated in a good chunk of the fanbase, but I hardly hear anyone cite her as a contribution to the Civil War.  Most people either blame Loghain or Cailan.

I see.

It's an interesting point, but I have a deep suspicion that it's more of a meta issue, because what we're told and what we're shown don't match.

Shown: Anora's father pretty much puts her aside.

Told: Anora is a good ruler and respected by the nobles.

Possibly, Fereldan nobles are just sort of dense and don't notice when Loghain essentially usurps the throne from their ostensibly-beloved queen.  But I think it's more because of the roles they have to play in the game.

If Anora were so strong that she could stand up to Dad and Howe, the Warden would have darn little to do in Denerim.  Also, the war would be over without the Warden deciding it.  Essentially, she'd do a lot of the heroic stuff the Warden does in the game.

OR

Anora is actually awful and weak... but then, she's not a really compelling choice for the crown, is she?  The Landsmeet's "tough choice" becomes simple and Alistair is the obvious candidate.  Regardless of who you think ought to get the crown in the end, I think it's pretty obvious that the game design intention is to make that a major decision, with pros and cons on either side.  So she doesn't really work as a weak queen, either.

Loghain's decision to name himself her regent is never explained; that sort of thing is usually reserved for child kings.  Again, I tend to think the answer has to do more with narrative and game mechanics - Loghain is the primary antagonist, so he needs to be responsible for what comes after.  The goal is for Anora to be a credible ally at the Landsmeet, so her hands have to be kept fairly clean - which is what Loghain's regency does.  (Similarly, the year's most pointlessly sadistic outrages can be pinned on Howe, making the tarnished hero a difficult, but tolerable, companion for Wardens inclined that way.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Corker wrote...

If Anora were so strong that she could stand up to Dad and Howe, the Warden would have darn little to do in Denerim.  Also, the war would be over without the Warden deciding it.  Essentially, she'd do a lot of the heroic stuff the Warden does in the game.

OR

Anora is actually awful and weak... but then, she's not a really compelling choice for the crown, is she?  The Landsmeet's "tough choice" becomes simple and Alistair is the obvious candidate.  Regardless of who you think ought to get the crown in the end, I think it's pretty obvious that the game design intention is to make that a major decision, with pros and cons on either side.  So she doesn't really work as a weak queen, either.

Loghain's decision to name himself her regent is never explained; that sort of thing is usually reserved for child kings.  Again, I tend to think the answer has to do more with narrative and game mechanics - Loghain is the primary antagonist, so he needs to be responsible for what comes after.  The goal is for Anora to be a credible ally at the Landsmeet, so her hands have to be kept fairly clean - which is what Loghain's regency does.  (Similarly, the year's most pointlessly sadistic outrages can be pinned on Howe, making the tarnished hero a difficult, but tolerable, companion for Wardens inclined that way.)

I think Anora's decision is because she considers herself over her head when everything goes to hell in a once-every-few-centuries sort of way, and Loghain thinks he has it, so she puts up with this. At the end of the day, she trusts him. Right until his best pal locks her away...

And the stuff you mention has something to do with it too, of course. It's probably most of the reason, actually.

[Wulfram]

Duncan would have expected the Orlesian Wardens to be arriving soon anyway.

[Lord of War]

The Bannorn started the Civil War, knowing the 'Spawn were down south. You think Loghain wanted to fight them?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, but he could have gone about avoiding it better.

[Gallimatia]

I blame Bann Teagan and men like him first and foremost. They slander Loghain and choose to speculate on Cailan's fate when the country is looking to gather to face a potent external threat. It's bad form.

Loghain: ...I expect each of you to supply these men. We must rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and quickly. There are those around us that would take advantage of our weakened state if we let them. We must defeat this darkspawn incursion but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation.

Teagan:  Your lordship, if I might speak? You have declared yourself Queen Anora's regent, and claim we must unite under your banner for our own good. But what of the army lost at Ostagar? Your withdraw was most... fortuitous?

---

Anora: Bann Tegan, my father is doing what is best.

Teagan: Did he also do what was best for your husband, your Majesty?

No offense Teagan but this really isn't the time. If you want to wage war and make accusations kindly wait until the darkspawn are dealt with. Fact is you will never know what happened. Heck the community saw Loghain's withdrawl in a cutscene and still can't agree on a verdict.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 08 septembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[mousestalker]

Bann Teagan is too sexy to be a culprit!

Teagan is too sexy to ever be a villain of any sort, except the outlaw of love.

Modifié par mousestalker, 08 septembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[Gallimatia]

I have seen similar defenses of Loghain. I am moderately swayed. There is a certain appeal to them both.

Perhaps Eamon is the bad guy. He looks suspiciously old for his age. It's possible he's been doing life draining blood magic rituals or some such.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 08 septembre 2012 - 01:19 .