293 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

I was right all along, after the EC came out but before Leviathan.....that instead of the Catalyst coming out of the blue to solve Shepards problem, it is Shepard that solves the Catalyst's problem....or ignores his problem and destroys him or takes his job instead. This is a subversion of the classic roots of a Deus Ex Machina, where in Ancient Greek drama, the "god from the machine" comes down and solves everything. Here the "god of the machine" has the problem and the hero has the solution, a completely backwards relationship.

Leviathan confirms this

A) While the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia and its motives foreshadowed on Rannoch, he is clearly foreshadowed in Leviathan, maybe too much so.

It is said that he hasn't attained his goal of the preservation of life, and that he is using the cycle to look for the answer. Shepard IS that answer.

Really, if the Catalyst was the viewpoint character in Mass Effect, it would be Shepard that would be a Deus Ex Machina, the Catalyst's contrived solution to his unsolvable problem.

The ending was never a DEM, its the fact that it was underdeveloped that was the problem.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

[BrookerT]

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

erm no, it isn't, its a mcguffin at best

[txgoldrush]

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

[Foolsfolly]

A) While the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia and its motives foreshadowed on Rannoch, he is clearly foreshadowed in Leviathan, maybe too much so.

Post-game DLC cannot foreshadow.

You suck forever.

It's still an unknown character that appears with great untold power that makes the ending possible. Thus deus ex machina but definition.

[Astrogenesis]

What about the Crucible as a deus ex machina?
"Hey Shep, you might be interested in these plans for a reaper killing machine that we have had access to for like 30 years o.0?"

[Icinix]

That's quite an interesting observation.

I think it still falls into Deus Ex Machina because it solves both problems. It just does it in an unorthodox way.

[BrookerT]

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

[Astrogenesis]

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

[txgoldrush]

Astrogenesis wrote...

What about the Crucible as a deus ex machina?
"Hey Shep, you might be interested in these plans for a reaper killing machine that we have had access to for like 30 years o.0?"

Wrong.....

The lower Mars archive was encrypted, Liara had to find the key to it on Kajhe.

[Veneke]

Retroactive attempts to explain away the Crucible/Catalyst as something other than a cheap plot device does not negate the fact that it was precisely that.

Modifié par Veneke, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

BrookerT wrote...
erm no, it isn't, its a mcguffin at best

txgoldrush wrote...
Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

A deus ex machina (play /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Wiki

Modifié par DinoSteve, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[txgoldrush]

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Yes he is.....

Its one of the few examples where Deus Ex Machina was actually well done.

But ME1 has other DEM as well, its easily the most contrived story in the series.

[BrookerT]

txgoldrush, it wont work, you wont convince people, everyone has already decided what they want to believe, unfortunatley

[satunnainen]

Crusible (or catalyst) is only DEM if you cherrypick the facts that fit (in your opinion) and forget the rest that dont fit. On the other hand thats about 99.3% of internet arguments. Let the discussion commence:

[txgoldrush]

DinoSteve wrote...

BrookerT wrote...
erm no, it isn't, its a mcguffin at best

A deus ex machina (play /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Wiki

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

[BrookerT]

DinoSteve wrote...

BrookerT wrote...
erm no, it isn't, its a mcguffin at best

A deus ex machina (play /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Wiki

In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable. A MacGuffin, therefore, functions merely as "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction".

Wiki

[Astrogenesis]

txgoldrush wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

What about the Crucible as a deus ex machina?
"Hey Shep, you might be interested in these plans for a reaper killing machine that we have had access to for like 30 years o.0?"

Wrong.....

The lower Mars archive was encrypted, Liara had to find the key to it on Kajhe.

I meant from a plot point of view.

From the very begining we have been told that the Reapers are this imence force that can not be stopped.
As soon as the war starts, the writers thow the Crucible at us.

It takes the biscuit.

[BrookerT]

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

[JigOS]

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

[I am disappoint]

The goal was to stop the Reapers through the 3 games.
The Catalyst solves all the problems.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

txgoldrush wrote..

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

so it was expected before you played ME3 that Liara would find the vital information about the crucible in the Mars achieves, that human had pored over for ages and just somehow missed.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[BrookerT]

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

[Veneke]

I really think whether it was a deus ex machina or a macguffin is beside the point. What's clear is that it was a cheap plot device. The Leviathan DLC hasn't and can't, really, change that.

txgoldrush wrote...

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

No. Simply no. If Liara went searching for it specifically then you might have a point. In other words, if we had known back in ME 1 or 2 that we were looking for a superweapon to beat the Reapers or a giant 'Off' button or the like then yeah, whatever. That superweapon concept, however, was only introduced in ME 3 and for such a critical junction in the story, coupled with how poorly executed it was, to argue that it was expected is a bit much, frankly.

[txgoldrush]

Astrogenesis wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

What about the Crucible as a deus ex machina?
"Hey Shep, you might be interested in these plans for a reaper killing machine that we have had access to for like 30 years o.0?"

Wrong.....

The lower Mars archive was encrypted, Liara had to find the key to it on Kajhe.

I meant from a plot point of view.

From the very begining we have been told that the Reapers are this imence force that can not be stopped.
As soon as the war starts, the writers thow the Crucible at us.

It takes the biscuit.

However, its introduced logically to the point where it wasn't "out of the blue", where the right person found it, and one who was actively searching for it.