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Any notion of Deus Ex Machina in the ending has been quashed....


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#26
I am disappoint

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BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

#27
77boy84

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The catalyst is a literal god figure that shows up at the last five minutes of the narrative to fix all the problems.

That is a DEM. Almost a text book definition.

#28
BrookerT

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I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem

#29
txgoldrush

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DinoSteve wrote...

txgoldrush wrote..

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

so it was expected before you played ME3 that Liara would find the vital information about the crucible in the Mars achieves, that human had pored over for ages and just somehow missed.


Once again...

The humans never had access to it, it was encrypted.

Liara finds the encyption keys on Kajhe which lead to the Mars Archives.

Hackett and Liara were at this before ME3 starts, and so was The Illusive Man.

#30
Sajuro

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The Crucible is at best/worst a Sword of Plot Advancement

#31
BrookerT

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77boy84 wrote...

The catalyst is a literal god figure that shows up at the last five minutes of the narrative to fix all the problems.

That is a DEM. Almost a text book definition.


He doesn't fix the problems, Shepard does

#32
Foolsfolly

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BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him


Incorrect. Vigil gave us an information dump. The plot device that made our victory possible was what the Protheans did 50,000 years ago (reprogramming the Keepers, leaving beacons which we've enteracted with twice, and a program to greet anyone who comes for the Conduit). And we know about Protheans and the Conduit before we even gain Spectre status.

The Cruicible is also not a deus ex machina because we know about it early in the story (in ME3's story not in the series story) and that it's a possible weapon powerful enough to stop the Reapers. Which it is if you go with the Destroy ending.

Once more with a feeling...

A deus ex machina (Image IPB /ˈd.əs ɛks ˈmɑːknə/ or /ˈdəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device
whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.


Nothing we know about the Catalyst prior to the rising at the end even hints that the Catalyst is an AI. The name even implies it's merely a firing device that makes the Cruible work. Hell, the mission begins with the player and all involved parties believing the Citadel is the Catalyst. And then the Citadel shows a previously unknown intelligence and offering untold powers (we know it kills Reapers, you could argue that TIM's interest proves it can control them, but no one can claim that synthesis was foreshadowed).

An example of a deus ex machina is Matrix Reloaded where Neo gains the unexplained and impossible power to kill machines in the real world.

Another example is the rail gun from the second Transformers movie which is never mentioned until it's called to defeat the giant wrecking ball bearing robot. Then it's instantly forgotten and never used again against any of the other giant robots waging war across Eypgt.

#33
txgoldrush

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77boy84 wrote...

The catalyst is a literal god figure that shows up at the last five minutes of the narrative to fix all the problems.

That is a DEM. Almost a text book definition.


You don't get it......

He was a god of the machine however, its the PROTAGONIST that solves his problem.

The DEM is SUBVERTED here.

The machine god and the hero have opposite roles here.

#34
I am disappoint

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BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.

#35
txgoldrush

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I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.

#36
BrookerT

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I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


How does he make it possible?

#37
Giga Drill BREAKER

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txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

txgoldrush wrote..

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

so it was expected before you played ME3 that Liara would find the vital information about the crucible in the Mars achieves, that human had pored over for ages and just somehow missed.


Once again...

The humans never had access to it, it was encrypted.

Liara finds the encyption keys on Kajhe which lead to the Mars Archives.

Hackett and Liara were at this before ME3 starts, and so was The Illusive Man.


Yes yes because humans are too stupid to decrypt it on there own...DUH....

and its amazing that Liara just magically found the key we need to translate it. Nope no Deus Ex Machina here.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:34 .


#38
txgoldrush

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Foolsfolly wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him


Incorrect. Vigil gave us an information dump. The plot device that made our victory possible was what the Protheans did 50,000 years ago (reprogramming the Keepers, leaving beacons which we've enteracted with twice, and a program to greet anyone who comes for the Conduit). And we know about Protheans and the Conduit before we even gain Spectre status.

The Cruicible is also not a deus ex machina because we know about it early in the story (in ME3's story not in the series story) and that it's a possible weapon powerful enough to stop the Reapers. Which it is if you go with the Destroy ending.

Once more with a feeling...

A deus ex machina (Image IPB /ˈd.əs ɛks ˈmɑːknə/ or /ˈdəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device
whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.


Nothing we know about the Catalyst prior to the rising at the end even hints that the Catalyst is an AI. The name even implies it's merely a firing device that makes the Cruible work. Hell, the mission begins with the player and all involved parties believing the Citadel is the Catalyst. And then the Citadel shows a previously unknown intelligence and offering untold powers (we know it kills Reapers, you could argue that TIM's interest proves it can control them, but no one can claim that synthesis was foreshadowed).

An example of a deus ex machina is Matrix Reloaded where Neo gains the unexplained and impossible power to kill machines in the real world.

Another example is the rail gun from the second Transformers movie which is never mentioned until it's called to defeat the giant wrecking ball bearing robot. Then it's instantly forgotten and never used again against any of the other giant robots waging war across Eypgt.


However, you are forgetting Vigil's data file.....he was more than just an info dump.

#39
Astrogenesis

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txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

txgoldrush wrote..

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

so it was expected before you played ME3 that Liara would find the vital information about the crucible in the Mars achieves, that human had pored over for ages and just somehow missed.


Once again...

The humans never had access to it, it was encrypted.

Liara finds the encyption keys on Kajhe which lead to the Mars Archives.

Hackett and Liara were at this before ME3 starts, and so was The Illusive Man.

But it still wasn't forshadowed before the events of ME3.

#40
I am disappoint

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txgoldrush wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.


You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.

#41
txgoldrush

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DinoSteve wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

txgoldrush wrote..

However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".

so it was expected before you played ME3 that Liara would find the vital information about the crucible in the Mars achieves, that human had pored over for ages and just somehow missed.


Once again...

The humans never had access to it, it was encrypted.

Liara finds the encyption keys on Kajhe which lead to the Mars Archives.

Hackett and Liara were at this before ME3 starts, and so was The Illusive Man.


Yes yes because humans are too stupid to decrypt it on there own...DUH....


or that they possibly don't have the ability to, or have their keys.

#42
I am disappoint

I am disappoint
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BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


How does he make it possible?


Like Vigil, if the catalyst didn't exist what would happen after Anderson and TIM?

Modifié par I am disappoint, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:35 .


#43
Helios969

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Whether the Catalyst is a deus ex by the strictest literary definition or not is less relevant than the fact it's contrived and makes for an anticlimatic resolution. Though a 3-way conversation between Shep, Catalyst, and Leviathan would have been interesting.

#44
BrookerT

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I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


How does he make it possible?


Like Vigil, if the catalyst didn't exist what would happen?


Shepard may still have had access to destroy. But most likely, the refuse ending would have happened, and we would have won in the end

#45
Foolsfolly

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txgoldrush wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him


Incorrect. Vigil gave us an information dump. The plot device that made our victory possible was what the Protheans did 50,000 years ago (reprogramming the Keepers, leaving beacons which we've enteracted with twice, and a program to greet anyone who comes for the Conduit). And we know about Protheans and the Conduit before we even gain Spectre status.

The Cruicible is also not a deus ex machina because we know about it early in the story (in ME3's story not in the series story) and that it's a possible weapon powerful enough to stop the Reapers. Which it is if you go with the Destroy ending.

Once more with a feeling...

A deus ex machina (Image IPB /ˈd.əs ɛks ˈmɑːknə/ or /ˈdəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device
whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved
with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event,
character, ability, or object.


Nothing we know about the Catalyst prior to the rising at the end even hints that the Catalyst is an AI. The name even implies it's merely a firing device that makes the Cruible work. Hell, the mission begins with the player and all involved parties believing the Citadel is the Catalyst. And then the Citadel shows a previously unknown intelligence and offering untold powers (we know it kills Reapers, you could argue that TIM's interest proves it can control them, but no one can claim that synthesis was foreshadowed).

An example of a deus ex machina is Matrix Reloaded where Neo gains the unexplained and impossible power to kill machines in the real world.

Another example is the rail gun from the second Transformers movie which is never mentioned until it's called to defeat the giant wrecking ball bearing robot. Then it's instantly forgotten and never used again against any of the other giant robots waging war across Eypgt.


However, you are forgetting Vigil's data file.....he was more than just an info dump.


It was a PROTHEAN data file just it was a PROTHEAN beacon that started us on the quest. And  PROTHEAN signal that blocked the Reaper control of the Keepers.

Protheans are even mentioned in your third conversation in the game. And you go to 3 worlds with large Prothean ruins.

How much foreshadowing do you need for that? Especially when Shepard and team don't know what the Conduit is but realize they need it to stop the Reapers. They went to the planet, got what they needed from Vigil, and used the Conduit to get back to the Citadel.

I forgot nothing. As usual Tex, you're slow on the draw.

#46
BrookerT

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I am disappoint wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.


You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.


and what is our problem?

#47
txgoldrush

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Helios969 wrote...

Whether the Catalyst is a deus ex by the strictest literary definition or not is less relevant than the fact it's contrived and makes for an anticlimatic resolution. Though a 3-way conversation between Shep, Catalyst, and Leviathan would have been interesting.


anticlimax =/= always bad just like Deus Ex Machina =/= always bad.

#48
I am disappoint

I am disappoint
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BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


How does he make it possible?


Like Vigil, if the catalyst didn't exist what would happen?


Shepard may still have had access to destroy. But most likely, the refuse ending would have happened, and we would have won in the end


How would you win?
Most anti-Refuse people are hating on head canon and saying they used the crucible in that cycle.

#49
I am disappoint

I am disappoint
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BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?


Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina


They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem


He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.


Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.


You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.


and what is our problem?


The Reapers.
How to defeat them?
The Catalyst solves that problem.

#50
Helios969

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txgoldrush wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Whether the Catalyst is a deus ex by the strictest literary definition or not is less relevant than the fact it's contrived and makes for an anticlimatic resolution. Though a 3-way conversation between Shep, Catalyst, and Leviathan would have been interesting.


anticlimax =/= always bad just like Deus Ex Machina =/= always bad.


I certainly wouldn't disagree.