293 réponses à ce sujet

[BrookerT]

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem

He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.

How does he make it possible?

Like Vigil, if the catalyst didn't exist what would happen?

Shepard may still have had access to destroy. But most likely, the refuse ending would have happened, and we would have won in the end

How would you win?
Most anti-Refuse people are hating on head canon and saying they used the crucible in that cycle.

Theyd didn't, thats the whole point, they knew so far in advamce, they may not have need the crucible.

And we should probably stop the quote pyramid:)

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I'm lost there are too many quotes in this thread.

[BrookerT]

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem

He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.

Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.

You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.

and what is our problem?

The Reapers.
How to defeat them?
The Catalyst solves that problem.

so both the Catlyst and Shepard are both Deus Ex Machinas? 

[txgoldrush]

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem

He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.

Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.

You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.

and what is our problem?

The Reapers.
How to defeat them?
The Catalyst solves that problem.

No

Shepard by solving the Catalyst's problem, also solves his own problem.

Its almost all Shepard here.

[Foolsfolly]

Ah, txgoldrush and BookerT are just trolling.

Good day, sirs.

[im commander shep]

As long as we keep getting more story via Post game DLC them it will always be a Deus Ex Machina. You can't foreshadow by releasing new content after the main event they can change the story arc/plot devices all they want if thats the case.

[BrookerT]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Ah, txgoldrush and BookerT are just trolling.

Good day, sirs.

Why are you accusing me of trolling, surley that being a troll in itself?

[txgoldrush]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Ah, txgoldrush and BookerT are just trolling.

Good day, sirs.

no you just don't get it

Just because you hate the ending doesn't mean its DEM.

[I am disappoint]

txgoldrush wrote...


No

Shepard by solving the Catalyst's problem, also solves his own problem.

Its almost all Shepard here.

Shepard doesn't necessary solve the Catalyst's problems in 3 of the endings so it optional to solve it.
Except its not all Shepard, if this DEM did not appear out of no where then Shepard would not solve any problems.

Modifié par I am disappoint, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[txgoldrush]

im commander shep wrote...

As long as we keep getting more story via Post game DLC them it will always be a Deus Ex Machina. You can't foreshadow by releasing new content after the main event they can change the story arc/plot devices all they want if thats the case.

but they did

Sorry, you want it to be DEM so you can criticize...but you can't now...too bad.

[Foolsfolly]

txgoldrush wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Ah, txgoldrush and BookerT are just trolling.

Good day, sirs.

no you just don't get it

Just because you hate the ending doesn't mean its DEM.

The two of you have just made massive pyramids with quote boxes that you've posted to as fast as you can in a short amount of time.

You've had your fun and so have I. We applaud your cunning.

[im commander shep]

[quote]BrookerT wrote...

[quote]I am disappoint wrote...

[quote]BrookerT wrote...

[quote]I am disappoint wrote...

[quote]txgoldrush wrote...

[quote]I am disappoint wrote...

[quote]BrookerT wrote...

[quote]I am disappoint wrote...

[quote]BrookerT wrote...

[quote]Astrogenesis wrote...

[quote]BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him[/quote]
Please explain?

[/quote]

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina
[/quote]

They could have wrote it so Sovereign doesn't gain control and it is not needed.
A Deus Ex Machina given to us before it was actually needed, nothing compared to 3 games attempting to stop the Reapers only to have the catalyst solve that problem for us.

[/quote]
But they didn't, In ME 1 with the information we were given, we would never have stopped soverign without vigl. And the Catlyst doesn't solve the problem, he just presents the issue, Shepard solves the problem

[/quote]

He doesn't just present it, he makes it possible for it to happen.
He solves the problem.

[/quote]

Wrong

The simple fact is that he CAN'T solve the problem, he says this.[/quote]

You're talking about his problem, yeah we solve that problem.
He solves our problem.

[/quote]

and what is our problem?
[/quote]

The Reapers.
How to defeat them?
The Catalyst solves that problem.

[/quote]

so both the Catlyst and Shepard are both Deus Ex Machinas? 


[/quote]

Exactly, The catalyst presents the only options avalible as created by him and by virtue of shepard being "special" without him even knowing this he can use only these option to solve the reaper problem.

[BrookerT]

[/quote]

Exactly, The catalyst presents the only options avalible as created by him and by virtue of shepard being "special" without him even knowing this he can use only these option to solve the reaper problem. [/quote]

Ah ok, fair enough

[Jassu1979]

Foolsfolly wrote...

A) While the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia and its motives foreshadowed on Rannoch, he is clearly foreshadowed in Leviathan, maybe too much so.

Post-game DLC cannot foreshadow.


It's still an unknown character that appears with great untold power that makes the ending possible. Thus deus ex machina by definition.

^^ This.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 02 septembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[JigOS]

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.

The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:

1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.


Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.

[txgoldrush]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A) While the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia and its motives foreshadowed on Rannoch, he is clearly foreshadowed in Leviathan, maybe too much so.

Post-game DLC cannot foreshadow.


It's still an unknown character that appears with great untold power that makes the ending possible. Thus deus ex machina by definition.

^^ This.

Sorry, but he ain't unknown anymore.....and he was foreshadowed before Leviathan.

[im commander shep]

txgoldrush wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

As long as we keep getting more story via Post game DLC them it will always be a Deus Ex Machina. You can't foreshadow by releasing new content after the main event they can change the story arc/plot devices all they want if thats the case.

but they did

Sorry, you want it to be DEM so you can criticize...but you can't now...too bad.

In that case you can never call the ending anything they can always change it depending on what they relase as DLC.

[txgoldrush]

JigOS wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.

The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:

1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.


Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.

You do not get why I call this a subversion of a DEM,

Yes, he is literally a god from the machine.

However, he does not ACT like one and in fact the role is reversed....the machine god is the one with the problem.

[txgoldrush]

im commander shep wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

As long as we keep getting more story via Post game DLC them it will always be a Deus Ex Machina. You can't foreshadow by releasing new content after the main event they can change the story arc/plot devices all they want if thats the case.

but they did

Sorry, you want it to be DEM so you can criticize...but you can't now...too bad.

In that case you can never call the ending anything they can always change it depending on what they relase as DLC.

even before Leviathan he is not a true DEM.

[txgoldrush]

[quote]BrookerT wrote...


[/quote]

Exactly, The catalyst presents the only options avalible as created by him and by virtue of shepard being "special" without him even knowing this he can use only these option to solve the reaper problem. [/quote]

Ah ok, fair enough
[/quote]

However, he completely desires one, and tries to warn you away from another.

He does NOT want you to pick Destroy, but he can't stop you.

[BrookerT]

JigOS wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.

The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:

1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.


Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.

He is reffered to, the Catalyst is almost a McGuffin in the sense that shepard is pursuing it. It is constantly refferenced.

The plot is only ended with Shepard involvement. Shepard is one who "alters the variable", without Shepard, Destory and Synthesis (as we know it) are not possible, And without The Catyst, the refuse ending will happen, with the reapers dying anyway. 

However, I agree that his presented as dietic in nature, I personally hjate this.

Fair enough.

If we refer to the game without the EC, then I can easily see how he is a deus ex machina, but with it, I just can't see it

[im commander shep]

JigOS wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.

The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:

1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.


Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.

Simply, This ^^

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Foolsfolly wrote...

A) While the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia and its motives foreshadowed on Rannoch, he is clearly foreshadowed in Leviathan, maybe too much so.

Post-game DLC cannot foreshadow.


It's still an unknown character that appears with great untold power that makes the ending possible. Thus deus ex machina by definition.

Event, character, ability, or object.

[txgoldrush]

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

JigOS wrote...

I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.

Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.

And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.

I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.

Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please

First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.

The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:

1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.


Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.

He is reffered to, the Catalyst is almost a McGuffin in the sense that shepard is pursuing it. It is constantly refferenced.

The plot is only ended with Shepard involvement. Shepard is one who "alters the variable", without Shepard, Destory and Synthesis (as we know it) are not possible, And without The Catyst, the refuse ending will happen, with the reapers dying anyway. 

However, I agree that his presented as dietic in nature, I personally hjate this.

Fair enough.

If we refer to the game without the EC, then I can easily see how he is a deus ex machina, but with it, I just can't see it

The Catalyst's deitic nature makes Shepard that more significant....he solves the problems of the "divine"...thats subverting the classic trope.

[I am disappoint]

His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.

And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.