I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
txgoldrush wrote...
JigOS wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.
Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.
And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.
I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.
Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please
First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.
The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:
1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.
Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.
You do not get why I call this a subversion of a DEM,
Yes, he is literally a god from the machine.
However, he does not ACT like one and in fact the role is reversed....the machine god is the one with the problem.
im commander shep wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
JigOS wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.
Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.
And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.
I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.
Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please
First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.
The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:
1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.
Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.
You do not get why I call this a subversion of a DEM,
Yes, he is literally a god from the machine.
However, he does not ACT like one and in fact the role is reversed....the machine god is the one with the problem.
Yes, but it is an illogical problem that is introduced in the final 5min and neither the protaganist or anyone playing/following the story cares about. What we have understood the story to be, "defeat the reapers" has been thrown out in favour of this and if we just consider the real problem the catalyst is a god in the machine that inadventantly solves our problem by forcing us to accept his logic and do what he wants within the 3 options presented.
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
Guest_Sion1138_*
Modifié par Sion1138, 02 septembre 2012 - 10:16 .
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
I seen no evidence to support there was a problem.
1 billion years of cycles and no closer to solving this "problem"
Peace between Organics and Synthetics
If there was a problem then it was the Levithans and other species that followed them afterwards like the Protheans.
But that doesn't have anything to do with Synthetic vs Organics.
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
Modifié par Fixers0, 02 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .
The Catalyst as a character isn't because it doesn't do anything much in its own right apart from spout a load of nonsense and half-baked last-second exposition. The Catalyst as a machine isn't quite a DEM because the entire game has gone on about it but it's got most of the problems that DEMs have, namely "we're screwed, here's a big magic thingummy to solve our problems in one go." Is it a DEM if the god in question spends a third of the time sitting around waiting to intervene?I am disappoint wrote...
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
Sion1138 wrote...
Pffft... Leviathan doesn't count.
"Foreshadowing or adumbrating is a literary device in which an author indistinctly suggests certain plot developments that will come later in the story."
Later in the story, but it's added when you've already finished the story!? So it wasn't there when you read it initially, but now it is. So that's OK? And you have to pay for it to just make sense?
Here's a friendly "Screw you Bio!". I remember a time when you used to tell complete stories.
The important bit about a DEM is what it does not why it does it.txgoldrush wrote...
And you ar enot getting it....yes, he has some of the qualties of a DEM, but he ACTS the opposite. The classic Deus Ex Machina is subverted here. Not averted, subverted.
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
I seen no evidence to support there was a problem.
1 billion years of cycles and no closer to solving this "problem"
Peace between Organics and Synthetics
If there was a problem then it was the Levithans and other species that followed them afterwards like the Protheans.
But that doesn't have anything to do with Synthetic vs Organics.
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
And once again, it sees Shepard as the solution if the Crucible is in good condition (which explains how its mood is more biiter with low EMS). The cycle isn;t solving the problem, but containing it.
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.
Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.
And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.
I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.
Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please
First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.
The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:
1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.
Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.
He is reffered to, the Catalyst is almost a McGuffin in the sense that shepard is pursuing it. It is constantly refferenced.
The plot is only ended with Shepard involvement. Shepard is one who "alters the variable", without Shepard, Destory and Synthesis (as we know it) are not possible, And without The Catyst, the refuse ending will happen, with the reapers dying anyway.
However, I agree that his presented as dietic in nature, I personally hjate this.
Fair enough.
If we refer to the game without the EC, then I can easily see how he is a deus ex machina, but with it, I just can't see it
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
I seen no evidence to support there was a problem.
1 billion years of cycles and no closer to solving this "problem"
Peace between Organics and Synthetics
If there was a problem then it was the Levithans and other species that followed them afterwards like the Protheans.
But that doesn't have anything to do with Synthetic vs Organics.
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
And once again, it sees Shepard as the solution if the Crucible is in good condition (which explains how its mood is more biiter with low EMS). The cycle isn;t solving the problem, but containing it.
I don't believe he ever wanted to contain the "problem", if he did he would use the Reapers as a peace keeping force.
Which he didn't.
JigOS wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
JigOS wrote...
I've never seen a greater example of Deus Ex Machina, both as a plot device, and as bad writing form than the Catalyst in ME3. I mean, not even in Deus Ex, because what they did was intentional and woven into every bit of the plot.
Leviathan doesn't really change this very much. It lessens it sure, but doesn't do away with it completely.
And then there's the Crucible: mystical machine out of freaking nowhere. Never mentioned previously, and suddenly it holds all our hopes for salvation.
I mean, really, the DEM-nature of those two plot entities simply boggles the mind.
Ok, how is the Catalyst a Deus Ex Machina, just explain it, please
First, you must consider the origin of the term Deus Ex Machina, or "God out of the machine". It comes from ancient Greek plays, where an often used plot device would be, near the end of the play, to lower a figure representing a god down to the stage with a crane. This god would provide a means to quickly tie up plot lines through the use of it's deitic power. Often this plot device would be unexpected.
The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is an example of Deus Ex Machina because of three things:
1. He is never chronologically reffered to previously in the plot. His appearance in the last minutes of the plot is unexpected, and abrupt.
2. He is deitic in nature, and holds the power to instantly solve the protagonist's problem, though the means of this is never explained. The plot is only able to be ended with his involvement.
3. He literally comes out of a machine, or in a sense, is a machine. A machine-god.
Leviathan is a post script edit. In lessens the DEM nature of the Catalyst by alluding to him before his appearance. He still retains DEM quality, however, as his introduction and involvement is entirely contained in the last act of the series, with no allusion previously. This is due to Bioware's chosing to create each game's plot relatively spontaneously.
He is reffered to, the Catalyst is almost a McGuffin in the sense that shepard is pursuing it. It is constantly refferenced.
The plot is only ended with Shepard involvement. Shepard is one who "alters the variable", without Shepard, Destory and Synthesis (as we know it) are not possible, And without The Catyst, the refuse ending will happen, with the reapers dying anyway.
However, I agree that his presented as dietic in nature, I personally hjate this.
Fair enough.
If we refer to the game without the EC, then I can easily see how he is a deus ex machina, but with it, I just can't see it
You must step out of an in-lore context. The Catalyst has an unsolvable problem. In an in-lore context, this has existed millions of years before the Mass Effect story. In a real-world conext, the Catalyst's problem exists in the audience's mind only in the last minutes of the game (or in the case of Leviathan, the last act of the game). It's a method for the entity of the Catalyst to solve the main story's problem. In the Greek dramas, it can be thought of as the god's motivations for intervening in the affairs of mortals.
Modifié par txgoldrush, 02 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .
txgoldrush wrote...
DinoSteve wrote...
lol what
The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina
Wrong
Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.
Sion1138 wrote...
Pffft... Leviathan doesn't count.
"Foreshadowing or adumbrating is a literary device in which an author indistinctly suggests certain plot developments that will come later in the story."
Later in the story, but it's added when you've already finished the story!? So it wasn't there when you read it initially, but now it is. So that's OK? And you have to pay for it to just make sense?
Here's a friendly "Screw you Bio!". I remember a time when you used to tell complete stories.
It is an experiment he is using over and over again until he can achieve ever lasting peace between Synthetics and Organics, by definition it is not containing but simply continuing the experiement the only way possible.txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
I seen no evidence to support there was a problem.
1 billion years of cycles and no closer to solving this "problem"
Peace between Organics and Synthetics
If there was a problem then it was the Levithans and other species that followed them afterwards like the Protheans.
But that doesn't have anything to do with Synthetic vs Organics.
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
And once again, it sees Shepard as the solution if the Crucible is in good condition (which explains how its mood is more biiter with low EMS). The cycle isn;t solving the problem, but containing it.
I don't believe he ever wanted to contain the "problem", if he did he would use the Reapers as a peace keeping force.
Which he didn't.
He doesn't....he was to control evolution to find a way to solve it, according to the Leviathans....hence the cycle.
Eain wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
DinoSteve wrote...
lol what
The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina
Wrong
Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.
In which sense is "oh look during our hour of need, knee-deep in despair, it conveniently turns out that we have a reaper killing device in the mars archives all along" logical?
Hahaha.
I am disappoint wrote...
It is an experiment he is using over and over again until he can achieve ever lasting peace between Synthetics and Organics, by definition it is not containing but simply continuing the experiement the only way possible.txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
txgoldrush wrote...
I am disappoint wrote...
His problem is not a problem at all and as such it does not need to be fixed which happens in most of the endings.
And as such this DEM helps you more than you help it.
And what proof is there that its not a problem? Not only does the Catalyst state that it is a problem, the Leviathans do too.
Tv Tropes has the Catalyst under Deus Est Machina....not a Deus Ex Machina....while he is a literal god from th emachine, he doesn't act in that role.
I seen no evidence to support there was a problem.
1 billion years of cycles and no closer to solving this "problem"
Peace between Organics and Synthetics
If there was a problem then it was the Levithans and other species that followed them afterwards like the Protheans.
But that doesn't have anything to do with Synthetic vs Organics.
He is basically a DEM in it's full form, I guess people see it differently but everything about him has a godly vibe.
And once again, it sees Shepard as the solution if the Crucible is in good condition (which explains how its mood is more biiter with low EMS). The cycle isn;t solving the problem, but containing it.
I don't believe he ever wanted to contain the "problem", if he did he would use the Reapers as a peace keeping force.
Which he didn't.
He doesn't....he was to control evolution to find a way to solve it, according to the Leviathans....hence the cycle.
And you don't have to solve his "problem".
im commander shep wrote...
Sion1138 wrote...
Pffft... Leviathan doesn't count.
"Foreshadowing or adumbrating is a literary device in which an author indistinctly suggests certain plot developments that will come later in the story."
Later in the story, but it's added when you've already finished the story!? So it wasn't there when you read it initially, but now it is. So that's OK? And you have to pay for it to just make sense?
Here's a friendly "Screw you Bio!". I remember a time when you used to tell complete stories.
Again This^
Eain wrote...
ME1 did create solutions out of nowhere but none were as jarring as this one. And no I will not see Homeworlds Vol. 4. The topic is the Crucible and how you feel that it's presence in the plot is logical. That is the point I contended, so that's the point you have to defend. Explain to me how its presence is logical. Make a case.
Go for it.
It's still pretty much last-minute "Oh we're screwed, oh we've just dug up something that can save our skins."txgoldrush wrote...
Eain wrote...
ME1 did create solutions out of nowhere but none were as jarring as this one. And no I will not see Homeworlds Vol. 4. The topic is the Crucible and how you feel that it's presence in the plot is logical. That is the point I contended, so that's the point you have to defend. Explain to me how its presence is logical. Make a case.
Go for it.
However, the Crucible's founding is described by Liara in a logical manner...and now you are choosing to ignore how she got it, which is canon.
The right person found it with the right motives, this is logical. She is rewarded for her expertise and perserverence.
This isn't a no name finding it by accident...this is the deueteragonist of the series and clear expert finding this through her character.
From the player's point of view it is though.txgoldrush wrote...
DinoSteve wrote...
BrookerT wrote...
erm no, it isn't, its a mcguffin at best
A deus ex machina (play /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.
Wiki
However, fact is...Liara searched for it...its not "unexpected".
Modifié par Candidate 88766, 02 septembre 2012 - 10:53 .
Retour en haut