293 réponses à ce sujet

[Legion of 1337]

Basically:

The Crucible is a prime example of MacGuffins at their finest (no explanation of origin, no idea how it works, need to build it anyway).

The Catalyst WAS a DEM before Leviathan; now that we know he exists and of his nature before hand, he is not.

[Jadebaby]

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

It's not completely out of the blue, it could be argued that the Prothean beacons are foreshadowing for an actual Prothean VI to still be around.
Also, it wasn't some God-like entity, in that it had to shut off all the power supplies to keep the program running.
Also, it didn't solve any problems, just gave everything context and meaning. It was still up to Shepard to continue pursuing Saren and defeat him and Sovereign.

[Jenonax]

Jamie9 wrote...

It's still introduced a whole 40-50 hours before the end. And it was foreshadowed in "Lair of the Shadow Broker".

Still makes it a DEM in terms of the main plot arc of the entire trilogy.  If we take 1, 2 and 3 and take the main plot as 'Stop the Reapers' then we literally do nothing for the second act to solve this problem and then at the eleventh hour (beginning of act 3) do we suddenly pop up with the all powerful Reaper kill switch.  It doesn't matter how long the third act it, all that matters is that is comes in that act.  Far too late.  It should have been discovered at the end of Act 1.

Liara said the Broker was searching for Prothean relics, something to stop the Reapers.

And thats all very well and good, Liara is searching for something Prothean.  Lovely, we know all about Prothean technology by now.  And nothing we have seen from them has even hinted at the fact that there was anything nearing Crucible level technology.  Nothing in the Beacons, nothing in the Archives, nothing Vigil says, nothing even in the Codex IIRC even hints that the Protheans had Crucible levels of technology. 

Therefore, not adequate enough to be called foreshadowing.  If they had known that they wanted to use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers, then at the very least Vigil should have known and told Shepard, even if it was something like 'last transmission from Blah Blah Base states that they were working on a superweapon to neutralize the Reapers.  No other data available'

That's adequate foreshadowing.  Not a vague Liara's looking for something in a DLC some people don't even own.  Not for the main plot device of the third act.  That's incredibly far from being acceptable foreshadowing.

[Jadebaby]

77boy84 wrote...

The catalyst is a literal god figure that shows up at the last five minutes of the narrative to fix all the problems.

That is a DEM. Almost a text book definition.

Although I understand the OP's line of thought, I would have to say this^

Just because Shepard is the one that has to make "the choice," doesn't mean that it's not a DEM.

It's just a DEM in Mass Effect. God-like beings presenting solutions (DEM), player gets to choose (Mass Effect).

EDIT: For anyone saying the crucible is a DEM it's not, it's APART of the DEM, with the Catalyst itself being the actual DEM.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Twinzam.V]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Astrogenesis wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

funny thing is, Vigil was a deus ex machina, and everyone loves him

Please explain?

Vigil appears with no foreshadowing, and gives you a datafile, without which you would never have overcome soverigns signal and open the citadel arms, stopping the reaper invasion. So Deus Ex Machina

It's not completely out of the blue, it could be argued that the Prothean beacons are foreshadowing for an actual Prothean VI to still be around.
Also, it wasn't some God-like entity, in that it had to shut off all the power supplies to keep the program running.
Also, it didn't solve any problems, just gave everything context and meaning. It was still up to Shepard to continue pursuing Saren and defeat him and Sovereign.

He also didnt dealt with absolutes.
He just gave information that might help, but not fail proof means to stop the reapers. Despite meeting Vigil, Shepard could have failed anyway.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jenonax wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

It's still introduced a whole 40-50 hours before the end. And it was foreshadowed in "Lair of the Shadow Broker".

Still makes it a DEM in terms of the main plot arc of the entire trilogy.  If we take 1, 2 and 3 and take the main plot as 'Stop the Reapers' then we literally do nothing for the second act to solve this problem and then at the eleventh hour (beginning of act 3) do we suddenly pop up with the all powerful Reaper kill switch.  It doesn't matter how long the third act it, all that matters is that is comes in that act.  Far too late.  It should have been discovered at the end of Act 1.

Liara said the Broker was searching for Prothean relics, something to stop the Reapers.

And thats all very well and good, Liara is searching for something Prothean.  Lovely, we know all about Prothean technology by now.  And nothing we have seen from them has even hinted at the fact that there was anything nearing Crucible level technology.  Nothing in the Beacons, nothing in the Archives, nothing Vigil says, nothing even in the Codex IIRC even hints that the Protheans had Crucible levels of technology. 

Therefore, not adequate enough to be called foreshadowing.  If they had known that they wanted to use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers, then at the very least Vigil should have known and told Shepard, even if it was something like 'last transmission from Blah Blah Base states that they were working on a superweapon to neutralize the Reapers.  No other data available'

That's adequate foreshadowing.  Not a vague Liara's looking for something in a DLC some people don't even own.  Not for the main plot device of the third act.  That's incredibly far from being acceptable foreshadowing.

Missed you Jenonax, nice to see you back

[geceka]

ShepComing4U wrote...

No, Liara searched for it in ME3, it wasnt foreshadowed at all during the previous 2 games. It is introduced randomly, unexpectedly. It is Deus Ex.

It's already mentioned in Lair of the Shadowbroker that the latter has been looking into Prothean relics to find a way to stop the Reapers. Even more so, everything in ME so far that gave the current cycle an edge against the Reapers has been related to the Protheans. Well, their beacon was, in fact, the plot device that kicked off ME1. The crucible is a natural extension of this plot line, extended (quite beautifully, actually) into something that does not only involve the Protheans, but all the cycles that came before, much in line with the last words Javik tells you before you go off to the second part of Priority: Earth, that this is the culmination of the resistance against the Reapers by all the cycles that came before.

As for the Catalyst being a DEM: People who defend this position vigorously typically go by a three-line wikipedia definition of "introduced at the end, solves conflict, unexpected", while on one hand, neither of these traits is fully applicable, and on the other, critizing a creative work is never sufficiently done with a trivial checklist, since there are so many nuances to consider, that it boils down to a much more complex analysis than that.

As an example, a Deus ex Machina is supposed to "appear out of no-where", yet the Catalyst is encountered on the Citadel. We went to the Citadel because the Thessia VI believes that it was Catalyst. Even this is not unexpected, as we already know that the Citadel is central to the Reaper-built Mass Relay network and full of unexplored secrets. In fact, the Citadel can even be seen as a symbol for the cycle itself, as it is, while ultimately Reaper-built and controlled, handed down from cycle to cycle, but ultimately the catalyst for the destruction. In ME3, the Citadel becomes the literal catalyst for the Reapers' destruction.

Anyway, we meet the catalyst on the Citadel, but we have plenty of reasons to be there. It does not just "appear". That the catalyst is an AI, rather than the structure itself, is a plot twist at best.

Also, a deus ex machina solves a situation without agency of the protagonist. Conversely, the point of the catalyst is that his solution "does not work anymore", and he relies on Shepard to solve the situation: Either undo the catalyst, assume its responsibilities or finalize its vision. This is completely opposite to how a literal Deus Ex Machina in classical theatre works, where the introduced god does not bother with the motives of the protagonist, but rather proceeds to solve the situation according to its own agenda.

[Iakus]

 Post hoc foreshadowing.

Sounds legit. 

[Jenonax]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Missed you Jenonax, nice to see you back

Aw, you're too kind:happy: Where have all your names gone?  Joe Del Toro will be disappointed he came up with half of those.

TBH I left because the EC added more layers of stupid and I had to move on.  However Leviathan is too ripe with stupid to ignore.

So good to be back.

[Gemini1179]

At the end of ME2, you were still in the same place in terms of plot as you were at the end of ME1:

The Reapers are coming and we don't have a f**king clue on how we are going to stop them.

The second important lore part of this is that what was found on Mars was "a small data cache".

This is what we had going into ME3. Suddenly, there is a whole "Mars Archives" (which breaks every Citadel convention and begs the question as to why the Alliance told the Council about the beacon in ME1 if they were already hoarding the Mars Archives illegally) and Liara has stumbled upon plans for a device to stop the Reapers.

The Crucible is sort of both a mcguffin and a DEM in it's connection to the Catalyst.

Doesn't really matter because the whole thing is just really bad storytelling.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jenonax wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Missed you Jenonax, nice to see you back

Aw, you're too kind:happy: Where have all your names gone?  Joe Del Toro will be disappointed he came up with half of those.

TBH I left because the EC added more layers of stupid and I had to move on.  However Leviathan is too ripe with stupid to ignore.

So good to be back.

I have them saved, but my signature was getting too big . Joe's not around anymore so he can't be dissapointed, left after EC, via twitter he says he checked out Leviathan on youtube, but he's done with the forum nonsense.
I have elected to stay for the lols.

[Joe Del Toro]

The f*ck is this.

[Jenonax]

geceka wrote...

It's already mentioned in Lair of the Shadowbroker that the latter has been looking into Prothean relics to find a way to stop the Reapers. Even more so, everything in ME so far that gave the current cycle an edge against the Reapers has been related to the Protheans. Well, their beacon was, in fact, the plot device that kicked off ME1.

See my post a couple above for my criticism of this.

The crucible is a natural extension of this plot line, extended (quite beautifully, actually) into something that does not only involve the Protheans, but all the cycles that came before, much in line with the last words Javik tells you before you go off to the second part of Priority: Earth, that this is the culmination of the resistance against the Reapers by all the cycles that came before.

The Crucible plot line is ridiculous.  The idea that this massive Reaper killing device was not only passed on through hundreds of cycles without the plans getting lost or discovered is ludicrous.  Equally appaling is the idea that we could build on and improve on it when we had no idea what it did.  Or the fact that apparantly it was built to fit a Reaper device when no one has ever been to that particular area of the Citadel?  I don't find it beautiful I find it stupid and beyond contrived.

As for the Catalyst being a DEM: People who defend this position vigorously typically go by a three-line wikipedia definition of "introduced at the end, solves conflict, unexpected", while on one hand, neither of these traits is fully applicable, and on the other, critizing a creative work is never sufficiently done with a trivial checklist, since there are so many nuances to consider, that it boils down to a much more complex analysis than that.

Ive studied writing and I certainly don't go on the Wikipedia definition, rather I go by the memory of a nasty little F I got on one of my creative writing pieces when I used something very similar to the Crucible.  No I don't think the Cataylst is a DEM.  He's a poorly implemented exposition device.  No the truly poor literary device is the Crucible.  Catalyst just comes part and parcel of that.  Because after all, you're right, the Catalyst doen't solve the plot at all, he merely gives terrible exposition, but does little.

Also, a deus ex machina solves a situation without agency of the protagonist. Conversely, the point of the catalyst is that his solution "does not work anymore", and he relies on Shepard to solve the situation: Either undo the catalyst, assume its responsibilities or finalize its vision. This is completely opposite to how a literal Deus Ex Machina in classical theatre works, where the introduced god does not bother with the motives of the protagonist, but rather proceeds to solve the situation according to its own agenda.

Thats a whole different problem.  Suddenly there is a dramatic shift in who is in control of the narrative.  The final is supposed to be driven by the Protagonist primarily and I would argue that absolutely no one is in control.  Suddenly everything grinds to a halt because everyones given up, there is no conflict.  Suddenly the protagonist and antagonist are on the same page with the antagonist handing over control to the protagonist and the protagonist going along with the logic and reasoning of the antagonist with very little rhyme or reason to do so.  There is supposed to be conflict going on between these two!  They're not supposed to having a weak willed conversation.  No one wins!  Shepard is handed a hollow victory without earning it and the villain is not defeated, he gives up!  Where's the satisfying conclusion?

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

The Crucible is a McGuffin, when the catalyst is introduced it becomes a Deus Ex Machina. This is because as the crucible is a goal/treasure/weapon but only after we learn how it stops the reapers does it become a DEM.

Modifié par TOBY FLENDERSON, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[El Mito]

Crucible= Deus Ex Machina in terms of the whole trilogy.
Starchild= Deus Ex Machina for the third game.

Deal with it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

The f*ck is this.

*BRO HUG* DUDE!

[Joe Del Toro]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

The f*ck is this.

*BRO HUG* DUDE!

Oh hey, it's GAY lycantrope.

....

OH GOD I'M JUST KIDDING I MISSED YOU AUHAUHAUUUU:crying:

Modifié par Joe Del Toro, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Jenonax]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

The f*ck is this.

*BRO HUG* DUDE!

Oh hey, it's GAY lycantrope.

....

OH GOD I'M JUST KIDDING I MISSED YOU AUHAUHAUUUU:crying:

Ugh, get a room you two!

[Joe Del Toro]

You back the F*CK up, nax

[GreyLycanTrope]

It can't be wrong when it feels so right.

[Jenonax]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

You back the F*CK up, nax

That is Jax to you pal.

[Joe Del Toro]

Not Jax, Nax. To the max.

[Jenonax]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Not Jax, Nax. To the max.

Clever.  Well done, have a cookie

[MegaSovereign]

I'm MegaSovereign.

And this thread is now mine for the taking.

[GreyLycanTrope]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm MegaSovereign.

And this thread is now mine for the taking.

You're just a machine, and machines can be broken.