293 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

Mass Effect: Homeworlds 4th issue was published literally 4 days ago.

Technically the Crucible was introduced into the narrative naturally but there is no denying that the plot device is poorly executed. The narrative never fully explains how it works or who originally created it, if that's because Bioware is planning to make it a big reveal in future DLC then my only response is that it should have been in the goddamn game in the first place.

They had a missed opportunity with the Leviathan DLC. If anyone would know about the Crucible's history it would be the Leviathans since they had been studying each cycle since the beginning. But no instead we get the same "its outcome is unknown" crap.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[DashRunner92]

txgoldrush wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

Its a Silily plot device seperate from what we know from the last two games.

Its a Deus Ex Machina

The Starchild and chocies , maybe less so.

By your logic, Shepards rebirth in ME2 is also a DEM, its contrived and comes out of nowhere.

Sorry but the Crucible was introduced logically.

And Homeworlds #4

http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Homeworlds

That's because Shepard's rebirth is a DEM. Now you're starting to grasp the concept. 

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...


Wrong

Why is the War of the Worlds labeled as a classic example of a DEM, routinely?

Also literary classic, Lord of the Flies, intentionally uses a DEM at the end.

#

Okay seriously stop with the WRONG everytime someone disagrees with you.  Its incredibly annoying.  We are not children.

Who labels it as a DEM?  Source please.  It comes across as more of a twist actually.  A logical one at that.  Science dictates that in the absence of bacteria the immune system will regress then as soon as contagions are introduced, bam, sickness and death.

Also not a DEM, children were missing the government looked for them.  Completely logical.  Its not as if a magic talking whale came and saved them.  It also fits into the theme of the book, anarchy in the absence of authority.  the ending sees a return to the status quo.  Golding allows the rescue of the children to show us how they look to authority, thus bringing the story to a natural conclusion.

[txgoldrush]

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I'm surprised people have such an issue with it being / or not being a deus ex machina. There is nothing wrong with a deus ex machina, its perfectly legitmate story telling and has been used successfully for many stories.

Sometimes it works really well, sometimes it doesn't.

Eh no.

A DEM is by definition something that it is undesirable. It's an inherently negative label. 

WRONG

Deus Ex Machinas can be great given the right director and writer.

War of the Worlds and Raiders of the Lost Ark had well executed DEM. How can you say that the ****s opening the ark wasn't well done?

Gaming examples.

The defeat of Gigyas in Earthbound is a fourth wall breaking DEM. And it was completely awesome.

Celes finding a seagull with Locke's bandanna restoring her hope in FFVI is another example of good DEM. The seagull true nature is open for interpetation.

Raiders of the Lost Ark wasn't a DEM. The opening of the ark was implied aready, especially in one of the deleted scenes. War of the Worlds was really a DEM either, it makes perfect sense that an alien's immune system wouldn't be able to handle Earth's bactaria. It was just a clever twist, not even really a twist. Just a solution that no one really thought of. It also can be seen as an allegory of the death of many Native Americans from the diseases that many Europeans brought with them by accident during the discovery of the new world.

Then why is these works routinely labeled as classic examples of Deus Ex Machina?

[txgoldrush]

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Wrong

Why is the War of the Worlds labeled as a classic example of a DEM, routinely?

Also literary classic, Lord of the Flies, intentionally uses a DEM at the end.

#

Okay seriously stop with the WRONG everytime someone disagrees with you.  Its incredibly annoying.  We are not children.

Who labels it as a DEM?  Source please.  It comes across as more of a twist actually.  A logical one at that.  Science dictates that in the absence of bacteria the immune system will regress then as soon as contagions are introduced, bam, sickness and death.

Also not a DEM, children were missing the government looked for them.  Completely logical.  Its not as if a magic talking whale came and saved them.  It also fits into the theme of the book, anarchy in the absence of authority.  the ending sees a return to the status quo.  Golding allows the rescue of the children to show us how they look to authority, thus bringing the story to a natural conclusion.

Yet, the author of Lord of the Flies admits to using Deus Ex Machina, on purpose, to show what happens with authority returning.

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...


Yet, the author of Lord of the Flies admits to using Deus Ex Machina, on purpose, to show what happens with authority returning.

Again, source please.

I have never heard the return of real authority, one of the great themes of the novel, regarded as a DEM when it completely fits in with the book, therefore negating the idea that it can possibly be a DEM.

[txgoldrush]

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

Its a Silily plot device seperate from what we know from the last two games.

Its a Deus Ex Machina

The Starchild and chocies , maybe less so.

By your logic, Shepards rebirth in ME2 is also a DEM, its contrived and comes out of nowhere.

Sorry but the Crucible was introduced logically.

And Homeworlds #4

http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Homeworlds

That's because Shepard's rebirth is a DEM. Now you're starting to grasp the concept. 

However it is not, because of hard backshadowing.

Liara FTW again.

[txgoldrush]

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Yet, the author of Lord of the Flies admits to using Deus Ex Machina, on purpose, to show what happens with authority returning.

Again, source please.

I have never heard the return of real authority, one of the great themes of the novel, regarded as a DEM when it completely fits in with the book, therefore negating the idea that it can possibly be a DEM.

This book

http://books.google....machina&f=false

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...

This book

http://books.google....machina&f=false

A google search?  thats your source?  This is a book listing with a couple of reviews, not a legitmate article on the subject.

[txgoldrush]

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

This book

http://books.google....machina&f=false

A google search?  thats your source?  This is a book listing with a couple of reviews, not a legitmate article on the subject.

Than get the book then. Thats the source.

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...



Than get the book then. Thats the source.

Yes and what does the book say?  I'm not buying the book to back up your points, thats your job.  You're supposed to be making me see your point not me trying to decipher what the hell you're trying to say.  Thats what Biowares best at.

*Edit* ah you know what that was harsh.  I apologise.  Just try and back up what you're saying before you start telling people they're WRONG all the time.

Modifié par Jenonax, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[txgoldrush]

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...



Than get the book then. Thats the source.

Yes and what does the book say?  I'm not buying the book to back up your points, thats your job.  You're supposed to be making me see your point not me trying to decipher what the hell you're trying to say.  Thats what Biowares best at.

Some essays defend the authors use of a DEM.

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...



Than get the book then. Thats the source.

Yes and what does the book say?  I'm not buying the book to back up your points, thats your job.  You're supposed to be making me see your point not me trying to decipher what the hell you're trying to say.  Thats what Biowares best at.

Some essays defend the authors use of a DEM.

Any specific quotes?

[txgoldrush]

Also this

http://www.gradesave...uide/section12/

Goes into detail on what the DEM does to the work.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[DashRunner92]

txgoldrush wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

Its a Silily plot device seperate from what we know from the last two games.

Its a Deus Ex Machina

The Starchild and chocies , maybe less so.

By your logic, Shepards rebirth in ME2 is also a DEM, its contrived and comes out of nowhere.

Sorry but the Crucible was introduced logically.

And Homeworlds #4

http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Homeworlds

That's because Shepard's rebirth is a DEM. Now you're starting to grasp the concept. 

However it is not, because of hard backshadowing.

Liara FTW again.

Again. You don't grasp the concept. Please tell me how the mechanics of the Lazarus project work to allow someone to be resurrected. I won't even get into the fact that space would destroy a corpse beyond recognizition. Backstory has nothing to do with DEM. 

[txgoldrush]

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

Its a Silily plot device seperate from what we know from the last two games.

Its a Deus Ex Machina

The Starchild and chocies , maybe less so.

By your logic, Shepards rebirth in ME2 is also a DEM, its contrived and comes out of nowhere.

Sorry but the Crucible was introduced logically.

And Homeworlds #4

http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Homeworlds

That's because Shepard's rebirth is a DEM. Now you're starting to grasp the concept. 

However it is not, because of hard backshadowing.

Liara FTW again.

Again. You don't grasp the concept. Please tell me how the mechanics of the Lazarus project work to allow someone to be resurrected. I won't even get into the fact that space would destroy a corpse beyond recognizition. Backstory has nothing to do with DEM. 

Its no longer DEM because the "event" is "explained".

While we do not get the specifics on how Shepard was raised, we do know how Cerberus got Shepard.

[WhiteKnyght]

Veneke wrote...

Retroactive attempts to explain away the Crucible/Catalyst as something other than a cheap plot device does not negate the fact that it was precisely that.

The Catalyst is the main Antagonist, not a plot device.

All the options you have to choose from are possible with or without the Catalyst. Shepard just stumbled into its domain and showed it that there are more options than it thought.

I mean, come on, you had to have figured that the Reapers had a larger presence pulling their strings. You don't commit large scale genocide for no reason. The Catalyst is the will of the Reapers and its reasons are theirs.

[DashRunner92]

txgoldrush wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I'm surprised people have such an issue with it being / or not being a deus ex machina. There is nothing wrong with a deus ex machina, its perfectly legitmate story telling and has been used successfully for many stories.

Sometimes it works really well, sometimes it doesn't.

Eh no.

A DEM is by definition something that it is undesirable. It's an inherently negative label. 

WRONG

Deus Ex Machinas can be great given the right director and writer.

War of the Worlds and Raiders of the Lost Ark had well executed DEM. How can you say that the ****s opening the ark wasn't well done?

Gaming examples.

The defeat of Gigyas in Earthbound is a fourth wall breaking DEM. And it was completely awesome.

Celes finding a seagull with Locke's bandanna restoring her hope in FFVI is another example of good DEM. The seagull true nature is open for interpetation.

Raiders of the Lost Ark wasn't a DEM. The opening of the ark was implied aready, especially in one of the deleted scenes. War of the Worlds was really a DEM either, it makes perfect sense that an alien's immune system wouldn't be able to handle Earth's bactaria. It was just a clever twist, not even really a twist. Just a solution that no one really thought of. It also can be seen as an allegory of the death of many Native Americans from the diseases that many Europeans brought with them by accident during the discovery of the new world.

Then why is these works routinely labeled as classic examples of Deus Ex Machina?

Because no one does place Raiders of the Lost Ark as a DEM. And if it is, then they haven't the deleted scenes. War of the Worlds is debatable, since microorganisms have obviously been on Earth already. It's just not something that is brought to the readers attention. Now a bad version of a DEM through the use of nature, would be something like in the movie, The Happening.

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...

Also this

http://www.gradesave...uide/section12/

Goes into detail on what the DEM does to the work.

Thank you.  Now I've read that one (school) and concede that the presence of athe authority can be regarded as a mechanical DEM, but not a thematic one.  Thematically it is perfectly logical that Authority would return at the end.  I agree therefore that it is somewhat an example of a DEM.  But I don't accept it is a completely true one in my understanding of the term due to the thematic reasons I just explained.

[txgoldrush]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Veneke wrote...

Retroactive attempts to explain away the Crucible/Catalyst as something other than a cheap plot device does not negate the fact that it was precisely that.

The Catalyst is the main Antagonist, not a plot device.

All the options you have to choose from are possible with or without the Catalyst. Shepard just stumbled into its domain and showed it that there are more options than it thought.

I mean, come on, you had to have figured that the Reapers had a larger presence pulling their strings. You don't commit large scale genocide for no reason. The Catalyst is the will of the Reapers and its reasons are theirs.

I never argued this, but the fact that the Catalyst is the main antagonist is also another reason why the trope of the DEM is subverted, and doesn't really exist.

[txgoldrush]

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Also this

http://www.gradesave...uide/section12/

Goes into detail on what the DEM does to the work.

Thank you.  Now I've read that one (school) and concede that the presence of athe authority can be regarded as a mechanical DEM, but not a thematic one.  Thematically it is perfectly logical that Authority would return at the end.  I agree therefore that it is somewhat an example of a DEM.  But I don't accept it is a completely true one in my understanding of the term due to the thematic reasons I just explained.

This means that the DEM plot device was indeed, used properly.

DEM's aren't always bad.

In fact, it rules, if you establish that the protagonist doesn't have real control over things.

[DashRunner92]

txgoldrush wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol what

The Crucible is the definition of the term Deus Ex Machina

Wrong

Liara finds it through her expertise and dedication, logically.

Its a Silily plot device seperate from what we know from the last two games.

Its a Deus Ex Machina

The Starchild and chocies , maybe less so.

By your logic, Shepards rebirth in ME2 is also a DEM, its contrived and comes out of nowhere.

Sorry but the Crucible was introduced logically.

And Homeworlds #4

http://masseffect.wi...ect:_Homeworlds

That's because Shepard's rebirth is a DEM. Now you're starting to grasp the concept. 

However it is not, because of hard backshadowing.

Liara FTW again.

Again. You don't grasp the concept. Please tell me how the mechanics of the Lazarus project work to allow someone to be resurrected. I won't even get into the fact that space would destroy a corpse beyond recognizition. Backstory has nothing to do with DEM. 

Its no longer DEM because the "event" is "explained".

While we do not get the specifics on how Shepard was raised, we do know how Cerberus got Shepard.

Along with an event appearing, it has to actually make sense to work. The big problem with DEM's are that they make no sense to the point where even suspending your disbelief starts to get silly. And actually we do know how Shepard is raised, not the specifics, we do know and can make assumptions on the life he lived using the origin descriptions in ME1. He/She is Shepard, our Shepard, that's were headcanon comes into place.

[DashRunner92]

txgoldrush wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Also this

http://www.gradesave...uide/section12/

Goes into detail on what the DEM does to the work.

Thank you.  Now I've read that one (school) and concede that the presence of athe authority can be regarded as a mechanical DEM, but not a thematic one.  Thematically it is perfectly logical that Authority would return at the end.  I agree therefore that it is somewhat an example of a DEM.  But I don't accept it is a completely true one in my understanding of the term due to the thematic reasons I just explained.

This means that the DEM plot device was indeed, used properly.

DEM's aren't always bad.

In fact, it rules, if you establish that the protagonist doesn't have real control over things.

The arugment isn't that DEM's are bad. Your topic states that the ending of ME3 isn't a Deus Ex Machina.

[Jenonax]

txgoldrush wrote...


This means that the DEM plot device was indeed, used properly.

DEM's aren't always bad.

In fact, it rules, if you establish that the protagonist doesn't have real control over things.

Ugh, thought we were getting something there.

If you read what I wrote, I said it was not a true DEM as it thematically fit with the rest of the book.  Narrative is more than just the rigid plotline.  Theme, character and atmosphere are just as important.  The return of authority fits thematically and therefore does not come completely out of nowhere.

And no, it doesn't rule, its cheap.  The audience is robbed of any real conclusion.

Modifié par Jenonax, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .