221 réponses à ce sujet

[Karimloo]

I play games so I can feel depressed and then

SLIT MYSELF IN MY BATHTUB FOR

[sveners]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

This is a deep question, but I think we might be able to answer it with the fact that video games are evolving as a media.

Have you ever watched a really sad movie? I'm sure you have. There are a whole lot of movies out there where things don't have fairy tale "And then no one died and everyone lived happily ever after" endings.

The fact is that the plot was a story, and not every story has a happy ending.

I remember my first real experience in a video game where things didn't really turn out well in the end. I was playing whatever that Robotech game for the Gamecube was. I was going awesome, shooting missiles at the bad guys, beating up villains. I got to that final boss fight, I hid behind buildings, I shot at the guy, and I won, and I was like "YES! I AM A WINNER!" and then I remembered "Wait. I am stranded in space." and the game informed me that yes indeed, I was stranded in space, and no one was going to come to save me. The hero dies. The end.

Sorry if I spoiled that for anyone who hasn't played it, but really, it was a gamecube game, were you going to unpack your wii and go out and find a copy at a thrift store if I hadn't said anything?

At the end of the game I found myself staring at the screen thinking to myself, "Well, that's not fair. I did everything right. I beat the bad guy. Why doesn't my guy get to keep living?" But at no point did I curse the game for not having a happy ending. It was an ending. The story was closed, and it was closed in a way that evoked and emotional response beyond the usual "Yay, I won!" response.

The game was pretty much just a fly around and shoot bad guys game. The plot didn't really break any barriers. There were only a handful of characters, and really only two or three conversations between each set of characters. It was a silly video game about shooting aliens from space in a jet that turned into a robot, and had it ended in any other way, I probably would not still remember it.

The point is, any video game can give us that "I am so awesome because I beat that video game!" experience at the end. I mean, really have a boss battle and a cinematic of people giving each other high fives, mission accomplished. Having a video game that makes you feel sad, while still offering closure is another thing.


Now, imagine that instead of Sheppard dying to save the universe, the game instead ended with the Crucible and Citadel turning into a giant space laser that shot Harbinger in his big stupid face, next cinematic is Sheppard high-fiving Joker and then sharing a hug with his/her romantic interest and looking up to the stars, fade to black roll credits.

We could have had an ending like that, but think about how hollow that would have felt after it was over. There was no emotional response. There was nothing that made the ending any different than anything else we have played before. The hero saved the day, everyone goes out for beers at the local bar. But would we have remembered that ending in five years?

It has probably been longer than the five years since I played that Robotech game, and I still remember that ending, and the game as a whole. It did something that a lot of games have tried to do since, not all of which have been successful. It made me feel.

And honestly, it was much worse than the ending we got here, because here, we die, and as a direct result of dying we save the universe. In the Robotech game, the character dies after having saved the solar system, and his death now ammounts to nothing.

The Robotech game was not an RPG. I enjoyed Red Dead Redemption, and I think the ending was well done. It was not an RPG,  John Marsten was his own character. His end was well foreshadowed.

Also. It was one game. I hardly had time to get to know him.


Mass Effect 3 ends a 5 year long journey, with a character many of us have invested in. Had it been a standalone game, then I wouldn't have cared. Honestly. It's a good end to give your life for the galaxy.


And yes, your happy ending does sound like ****. But BioWare have pulled off emotionally satisfying, happy, endings before. In fact, most or all of BioWares games have had that.


EDIT: Oh, and just so I've said it, games are not movies. Especially not RPG's.

Modifié par sveners, 02 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .

[Funkdrspot]

no. this isnt 1990, people play games for the same reasons they watch movies, which is to be entertained. some like to be scared, some like action, some want the story. not every game or movie needs to have a disney ending.

[Xerxes52]

Depends. If it's executed well, I'm fine with feeling depressed, angry, etc with a game.

For example: Spec Ops: The Line. Started off as a generic (but fun) third person shooter, then turned into a massive psychological trip into hell. I felt angry, depressed, and somewhat shocked by the end. The execution imo was downright masterful and I came away thoroughly entertained.

[Snoopy1955]

sveners wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

This is a deep question, but I think we might be able to answer it with the fact that video games are evolving as a media.

Have you ever watched a really sad movie? I'm sure you have. There are a whole lot of movies out there where things don't have fairy tale "And then no one died and everyone lived happily ever after" endings.

The fact is that the plot was a story, and not every story has a happy ending.

I remember my first real experience in a video game where things didn't really turn out well in the end. I was playing whatever that Robotech game for the Gamecube was. I was going awesome, shooting missiles at the bad guys, beating up villains. I got to that final boss fight, I hid behind buildings, I shot at the guy, and I won, and I was like "YES! I AM A WINNER!" and then I remembered "Wait. I am stranded in space." and the game informed me that yes indeed, I was stranded in space, and no one was going to come to save me. The hero dies. The end.

Sorry if I spoiled that for anyone who hasn't played it, but really, it was a gamecube game, were you going to unpack your wii and go out and find a copy at a thrift store if I hadn't said anything?

At the end of the game I found myself staring at the screen thinking to myself, "Well, that's not fair. I did everything right. I beat the bad guy. Why doesn't my guy get to keep living?" But at no point did I curse the game for not having a happy ending. It was an ending. The story was closed, and it was closed in a way that evoked and emotional response beyond the usual "Yay, I won!" response.

The game was pretty much just a fly around and shoot bad guys game. The plot didn't really break any barriers. There were only a handful of characters, and really only two or three conversations between each set of characters. It was a silly video game about shooting aliens from space in a jet that turned into a robot, and had it ended in any other way, I probably would not still remember it.

The point is, any video game can give us that "I am so awesome because I beat that video game!" experience at the end. I mean, really have a boss battle and a cinematic of people giving each other high fives, mission accomplished. Having a video game that makes you feel sad, while still offering closure is another thing.


Now, imagine that instead of Sheppard dying to save the universe, the game instead ended with the Crucible and Citadel turning into a giant space laser that shot Harbinger in his big stupid face, next cinematic is Sheppard high-fiving Joker and then sharing a hug with his/her romantic interest and looking up to the stars, fade to black roll credits.

We could have had an ending like that, but think about how hollow that would have felt after it was over. There was no emotional response. There was nothing that made the ending any different than anything else we have played before. The hero saved the day, everyone goes out for beers at the local bar. But would we have remembered that ending in five years?

It has probably been longer than the five years since I played that Robotech game, and I still remember that ending, and the game as a whole. It did something that a lot of games have tried to do since, not all of which have been successful. It made me feel.

And honestly, it was much worse than the ending we got here, because here, we die, and as a direct result of dying we save the universe. In the Robotech game, the character dies after having saved the solar system, and his death now ammounts to nothing.

The Robotech game was not an RPG. I enjoyed Red Dead Redemption, and I think the ending was well done. It was not an RPG,  John Marsten was his own character. His end was well foreshadowed.

Also. It was one game. I hardly had time to get to know him.


Mass Effect 3 ends a 5 year long journey, with a character many of us have invested in. Had it been a standalone game, then I wouldn't have cared. Honestly. It's a good end to give your life for the galaxy.


And yes, your happy ending does sound like ****. But BioWare have pulled off emotionally satisfying, happy, endings before. In fact, most or all of BioWares games have had that.


EDIT: Oh, and just so I've said it, games are not movies. Especially not RPG's.

My ending in Dragon Age wasn't happy. My character died there to make sure that the dragon died because I didn't feel comfortable whoring out Alistar to Morrigan.

Sure Bioware has done some satisfying endings where we didn't have characters that we were invested in that died, but they've done some where that was sometimes the best outcome of a bleak situation.

In the end, the ME3 ending didn't really make me depressed because Sheppard died to save the galaxy. It didn't even make me depressed to find that there was little to nothing that I could do in order to change his fate. I watched the end of the game, nodded my head, and while I was disappointed to find that all of the endings were ridiculously similar (as this was pre EC), I didn't really feel depressed. I steered my Sheppard in as right a direction as I could (except for when I accidentally took that renegade action and shot Udina), and in the end, the choice to sacrifice him to save the galaxy didn't actually feel...wrong, especially considering how beat up Shep was at the time, and the limited likelihood that he was going to survive anyway.

It just seems to me that too many people are focused on the fact that Sheppard dies that they are losing sight of the more important fact, that his death has meaning.

Now what is depressing is the Refuse ending, where everyone dies and everything you did was for nothing.

[Snoopy1955]

Funkdrspot wrote...

no. this isnt 1990, people play games for the same reasons they watch movies, which is to be entertained. some like to be scared, some like action, some want the story. not every game or movie needs to have a disney ending.

Exactly.

Games are what we pour ourselves into so that we can feel something. In that way they are even more satisfying than movies, because instead of watching a story take place and being like "That was cool when he did that" we are taking an active role in the story, and it stops being "he" or "she" and starts being "I".

Some might argue that Games and RPGs are not the same for that very reason. If we are putting work into it then there should be a happy ending, after all, we put the work into it, don't we deserve a happy ending?

What I would argue is that a happy ending isn't what you want. What you want is a satisfying ending.

Sheppard dying in order to save the galaxy may not be happy, but I would argue that it is satisfying. Even if the space magic of the crucible doesn't make sense, or some (or all) of the endings have results that are undesirable, the core idea of "Sheppard sacrifices his life to save the galaxy" is a satisfying thought.

Also, as he's been working towards saving the galaxy for three games now, what exactly was he going to do after it was done? Retire on some distant planet far away from the Mass Relays? Go exploring Prothean dig sites with Liara and have lots of little blue babies with her? Continue his work as an Alliance Commander?

Honestly, I can think of nothing more depressing than knowing that Commander Sheppard destroyed the Reapers, survived, and then ended up taking a security position like Bailey on the Citadel.

[JBPBRC]

Funkdrspot wrote...

no. this isnt 1990, people play games for the same reasons they watch movies, which is to be entertained.

I'm pretty sure back in 1990 games were played for entertainment as well.

[BSpud]

With my all the investment in my Shepard and the supporting characters, I found the ending (even with the EC) a depressing, enthusiasm-sapping player experience, not a depressing/bittersweet end that was nevertheless a cathartic, entertaining player experience. The difference between the two is the difference between ME3 vs. Red Dead Redemption (as was mentioned earlier ) or the original Fallout ending. Dark, sad, grim, etc. entertainment content is perfectly valid for me, as long as the player/viewer experience doesn't make me feel like I wasted my time being invested, as ME3's ending did. There are a number of reasons why this happened from a narrative/interaction perspective, but that's the bottomline.

[Snoopy1955]

JBPBRC wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

no. this isnt 1990, people play games for the same reasons they watch movies, which is to be entertained.

I'm pretty sure back in 1990 games were played for entertainment as well.

I don't remember Mario having to jump off a bridge to drag Bowser into the lava because it was the only way to make sure he wouldn't come back though.

Honestly though, if Nintendo is watching, that is the perfect way to end the Mario Fanchise.

[Baa Baa]

Karimloo wrote...

I play games so I can feel depressed and then

SLIT MYSELF IN MY BATHTUB FOR

[Snoopy1955]

BeefheartSpud wrote...

With my all the investment in my Shepard and the supporting characters, I found the ending (even with the EC) a depressing, enthusiasm-sapping player experience, not a depressing/bittersweet end that was nevertheless a cathartic, entertaining player experience. The difference between the two is the difference between ME3 vs. Red Dead Redemption (as was mentioned earlier ) or the original Fallout ending. Dark, sad, grim, etc. entertainment content is perfectly valid for me, as long as the player/viewer experience doesn't make me feel like I wasted my time being invested, as ME3's ending did. There are a number of reasons why this happened from a narrative/interaction perspective, but that's the bottomline.

So your issue isn't that Sheppard had to die to save the galaxy, but instead are focused on the fact that sparing the Rachnai queen at the end of ME1 didn't appear to change anything at all about the ending of ME3 compared to if you had killed her.

Now that, I can understand.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I believe it all boils down to one thing: execution.

[Calibrations Expert]

avatar0 wrote...

But have you forgotten?
This isn't a video game.
In fact, Bioware took out TIM as a final boss precisely because they felt a final boss would be too "video game."

This is ART.
And ART is dark, depressing, magical, and speculative.
You don't enjoy art, you speculate and feel bad about it.
I mean, do you enjoy Beethoven's music or Shakespeare's writing?
Respect the artists' integrity, OP.
This is about them, not the player, not the consumer, and definitely not YOU!

Except Bioware are total hypocrites. Ending the game on a multiple choice question ripped word-for-word out of Deus Ex 1 is as video gamey as it gets.

The ME3 ending is a replay of the Knights of the Old Republic 2 ending. I found that out awhile ago.

[Sarevok Synder]

Nihilism FTW!

I like my games vague and meaningless, who the hell plays games to "enjoy" the outcome?

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 02 septembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[drayfish]

I would throw into the mix here: in my playthrough Shepard didn't save the galaxy.

She died - fine, I was expecting that. I truly had no expectation that she would be coming back from a mission into Reaper HQ; but I did, and had for years, believe she could save the universe. She was tenacious, she was brave, she had faith - even when governments and societies told her not to - that there was no hope.  She fought on, thinking she could save us all. And I believed.

Instead what I got was a scenario in which she had to agree to use the Reaper's tactics of war. No other way to 'save the day'. Genocide a race of allies; genetically mutate everyone against their will; or mind control a species and become the most dominant force of power in the universe.

Which Reaper power would you most like to unleash upon the universe? Which sick Reaper ideology most suits your fancy?

And if you don't pick one, I'll decimate the universe anyway.

In my playthrough the universe wasn't saved. It lived, but its spirit was destroyed. And that's not the same thing.

Modifié par drayfish, 02 septembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[SNascimento]

I don't think so, at least not with ME.
.
Mass Effect has always been more than just playing a game and having fun, to illustrate this just see how many people here say ME1 is the best of the trilogy even if it had terrible gameplay.
.
So no, I don't think they should put an happy ending just so you can feel good about it.

[frostajulie]

I agree OP and this is exactly what is wrong with ME3 it leaves you feeling depressed and sad. It sucks all the pleasure out of the experience. Your left with a game you want to play but when you try you can't I think its like erectile dysfunction only for a video game. I still love ME1 and ME2, I still have fond memories of parts of ME3 but when I try to play ME3 I walk around a bit and feel a bit sick and when I quit I feel better.

[xsdob]

My game ending didn't make me depressed, I actually felt happy and sad at the same time when I saw it, a lot of the former than the later.

Sorry you didn't, and the same could be asked of movies and why we need sad moments in them, they are also entertainment, why are there parts in it that make the audience sad?

Modifié par xsdob, 02 septembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

10110001110100 wrote...

I have found a fun way to play ME3. Assume Shepard is indoctrinated, and play to get the Reapers the best ending. Not only is it more challenging to sabotage allied efforts and get all your squad killed you and your Reaper allies can actually WIN in the end.

Yes! Sort of like Amanda Kenson! Shepard works hard to get to see the reapers glory! "Surrender and you will be spared!" Isn't that what Harbinger told Shepard? Is surrender not preferable to death?

Another way to do it is to renegade the hell out of The Illusive Man and get shot by TIM and let TIM go to the Catalyst.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 02 septembre 2012 - 11:35 .

[Hobnob1978]

Something went wrong... badly wrong. Despite all the missed chances in the 1st 3/4 of ME3 to make our choices in ME1 and ME2 mean something truly plot changing, ME3 still worked and was, for me, exciting. I really felt I was rushing around trying to hammer a chance for our survival into shape.,

But the ending is so depressing, on my recent playthrough I stopped at the earth assault... just stopped. That Shepard will never meet the crucible (strange... could have sworn I heard a "yes!" from my PC... odd.

One thing though, for all those who don't want shepard to live, often because they quote that sacrifice is needed for the reapers to die or that it would it too "Disney" for it to happen.

Disney... right. Unless you're totally dead inside or not paying any attention at all in ME3.

Hundreds of Millions dead at the hands of the reapers.
thousands made to suffer as twisted creatures under control of the reapers
Mordin dead (A good friend to shepard)
Thane dead (another one bites the dust)
Legion dead (okay, disseminated amongst the geth, but the personality is gone forever.)
Anderson Dead (essentially almost a father figure)
Universe in ruins.

How the hell is that a Disney/happy ending?

I want shepard to live because she's been through so much and deserves it. If you want her to die, play the first five minutes of ME2 and then turn it off... she dies plenty in that one.

Is it too bad to ask for a glimmer of hope and resolve in having Shepard survive? The scarred hero retiring from the universe to live out her days in peace somewhere? It'd be a damn small glimmer in ME3's story of death, mutilation, suffering, war, and painful rebuilding.

[Snoopy1955]

drayfish wrote...

I would throw into the mix here: in my playthrough Shepard didn't save the galaxy.

She died - fine, I was expecting that. I truly had no expectation that she would be coming back from a mission into Reaper HQ; but I did, and had for years, believe she could save the universe. She was tenacious, she was brave, she had faith - even when governments and societies told her not to - that there was no hope.  She fought on, thinking she could save us all. And I believed.

Instead what I got was a scenario in which she had to agree to use the Reaper's tactics of war. No other way to 'save the day'. Genocide a race of allies; genetically mutate everyone against their will; or mind control a species and become the most dominant force of power in the universe.

Which Reaper power would you most like to unleash upon the universe? Which sick Reaper ideology most suits your fancy?

And if you don't pick one, I'll decimate the universe anyway.

In my playthrough the universe wasn't saved. It lived, but its spirit was destroyed. And that's not the same thing.

If we work together we can defeat anything

...except the Reapers. Have you seen the size of those things?



I understand your point though. You really, really believed that the crucible would be a giant space laser that you could shoot Harbinger in the face with, and it turned out that it probably would have been a bigger victory if instead of building the crucible you really did build a giant space laser with which to shoot Harbinger in the face.

[drayfish]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

I understand your point though. You really, really believed that the crucible would be a giant space laser that you could shoot Harbinger in the face with, and it turned out that it probably would have been a bigger victory if instead of building the crucible you really did build a giant space laser with which to shoot Harbinger in the face.

No - I really believed that no matter how hard or how long she had to fight, Shepard would never agree to inflict the Reaper's sick ideology on the universe.

She had a boat full of friends and allies fighting with her to save what the universe stood for, not just the ability to survive.  She had a family of soldiers as diverse and peculiar as could ever be assembled, all fighting together, united by their diversity, standing by her side to uphold the rights to freedom and life.

But then the game made Shepard become a Reaper.  Genocide, mind-control and eugenics.  These are the tools of the Reapers, and are used because they believe it is the only way to stop war.

And then the game made me stop a war by using either genocide, mind-control or eugenics.

Shepard didn't save the universe.  She just validated that the Reapers were right all along.


...But yes: I would have loved a big goddamn lazer.

Modifié par drayfish, 02 septembre 2012 - 11:55 .

[Iakus]

Hobnob1978 wrote...

One thing though, for all those who don't want shepard to live, often because they quote that sacrifice is needed for the reapers to die or that it would it too "Disney" for it to happen.

Disney... right. Unless you're totally dead inside or not paying any attention at all in ME3.

Hundreds of Millions dead at the hands of the reapers.
thousands made to suffer as twisted creatures under control of the reapers
Mordin dead (A good friend to shepard)
Thane dead (another one bites the dust)
Legion dead (okay, disseminated amongst the geth, but the personality is gone forever.)
Anderson Dead (essentially almost a father figure)
Universe in ruins.

How the hell is that a Disney/happy ending?

I want shepard to live because she's been through so much and deserves it. If you want her to die, play the first five minutes of ME2 and then turn it off... she dies plenty in that one.

Is it too bad to ask for a glimmer of hope and resolve in having Shepard survive? The scarred hero retiring from the universe to live out her days in peace somewhere? It'd be a damn small glimmer in ME3's story of death, mutilation, suffering, war, and painful rebuilding.

All of this, especially the bolded part.

Bioware, what happened?  Seriously.  What happened/

[xsdob]

^ My engineer shepard lived cause my ems was high in destroy, don't know why you can't get your ems up.

[drayfish]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

I don't remember Mario having to jump off a bridge to drag Bowser into the lava because it was the only way to make sure he wouldn't come back though.

Honestly though, if Nintendo is watching, that is the perfect way to end the Mario Fanchise.

Fantastic.  I love this!