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[Icinix]

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

BonFire5 wrote...

The intricate and well fleshed-out story of course! Or maybe finding a way to make Kelly not a red-head anymore. As well as trying to take her out of the game as much as possible.

Don't forget, removing as much of Harbinger as they felt they could get away with.

To be honest - I never really liked Harbinger.

I think removing him from ME3 was a good call....

...replacing him with Cerberus was not such a good call.

Noi, Cerberus was very consistant to their ME1 ways....they are there to represent the dark side of humanity....the worst aspects....it works.

Sorry, but they were no where near grey.

Sorry, you misunderstand. I didn't like them as the cheif bad guys.

I was a Cerberus is Evil poster during and after ME2.

I just didn't like them being such a large focus of ME3.

They were a large focus because the theme of humanities place in the galaxy is a major one. Thats why good humans vs evil ones work.

Also Shep and TIM are clear foils when it comes to the theme of sacrifice. Thats well done.

In fact, TIM reminds me of Ultima V's Blackthorne in many ways.

Well, it didn't work for me, nor did their themes of sacrifice.

I loved TIM, don't get me wrong, but I didn't like their presentation in ME3.

Ahh well - its all done now anyway.

Its one that is willing to sacrifice herself and reluctant to sacrifice others vs one who forcibly sacrifices others to achieve power....it works.....and like Lord Blackthorne of Ultima (who twisted the virtues to become a tyrant), he plays right into the hands of the big "Evil"...in the name of fighting it.

And Priority Horizon really shows this theme.....it is one of the best and highly underrated mission in ME3. It is by far, the series darkest mission. Its because humanity is doing this, not the Reapers.

Oh I don't disagree on the point of why they were trying to do - but like the child - I don't think it was necessary.

I was anti-cerberus and knew what they were prior to ME3. Nothing they did came as a surprise - it was expected. It was only their focus that bothered me - By the time Mars was done - I was like "Yes I get it, Cerberus is bad, I know this already, lets move on."

...but we didn't move on - Cerberus, rather than the Reapers, were so much of our focus, and that irked me.

I imagine though, that had I not played ME2 and ME1 - my opinion of this would be very different.

[sporeian]

This is what happens when you only give 2 years of development time and no money!

[txgoldrush]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Thats not a plot hole, they are indoctrinating people.....did you miss the part where at first, it was volunteers?

No i didn't. What you missed was the part where to get so large, and to accept "volunteers", you'd have to have pretty damned aggressive PR, and since the Alliance considers Cerberus to be a Terrorist organisation, wouldn't you think that they'd notice any of these trends?

txgoldrush wrote...
And no where do they rival the Turians in fire power....that "fact" does not exist.

Coulda fooled me, fighting Cerberus more than Reapers, and the small part about them hijacking the Citadel, and winning until Shep shows up....

And since when did they have an army?

Seriously...on Eden Prime, they had to pretend they were larger and more significant than they were, or the colonists would take the colony back. Its ALL IN THE NARRATIVE.

They seem powerful because they are always in the right places. They win with intellegence, not brute strength. They are a scapel, not a hammer.

And its easy to take on a larger force like the Csec HQ when they are caught completely by suprise....it was a San Jacinto style massacre.

[iSousek]

/sigh

lets hope some of this stuff gets into a DLC

Also, it is quite obvious that some of the stuff was cut because of lack of time, not because they felt it would make the game better.

EDIT: It takes a galactic mobilization to take down cerberus <_<

Modifié par iSousek, 06 septembre 2012 - 08:28 .

[Wowky]

M920CAIN wrote...

Like I said it a few times before.... THE POTENTIAL! ME3 could've been great! But Bioware wanted it to be mediocre.

Why do people keep blaming Bioware and saying they planned a **** game? Why would someone intentionally try to make a crap game?

It's quite clear that time and budget constraints imposed by EA were really Bioware's undoing here, not their desire. The fact all these things were initially in there just goes to highlight how high they set their sights. I'd honestly have been willing to wait another year for ME3 if we got all that sort of detail.

You never know, large chunks of this might well be put back in through DLC

[txgoldrush]

Icinix wrote...


Oh I don't disagree on the point of why they were trying to do - but like the child - I don't think it was necessary.

I was anti-cerberus and knew what they were prior to ME3. Nothing they did came as a surprise - it was expected. It was only their focus that bothered me - By the time Mars was done - I was like "Yes I get it, Cerberus is bad, I know this already, lets move on."

...but we didn't move on - Cerberus, rather than the Reapers, were so much of our focus, and that irked me.

I imagine though, that had I not played ME2 and ME1 - my opinion of this would be very different.

However, Cerberus fits, because they are really helping the Reapers.

We need more bad guys than just zombies and Lovecraftian ships. We need human ones as well.

[iSousek]

Wowky wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

Like I said it a few times before.... THE POTENTIAL! ME3 could've been great! But Bioware wanted it to be mediocre.

Why do people keep blaming Bioware and saying they planned a **** game? Why would someone intentionally try to make a crap game?

It's quite clear that time and budget constraints imposed by EA were really Bioware's undoing here, not their desire. The fact all these things were initially in there just goes to highlight how high they set their sights. I'd honestly have been willing to wait another year for ME3 if we got all that sort of detail.

You never know, large chunks of this might well be put back in through DLC

what this guy said

[Icinix]

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Oh I don't disagree on the point of why they were trying to do - but like the child - I don't think it was necessary.

I was anti-cerberus and knew what they were prior to ME3. Nothing they did came as a surprise - it was expected. It was only their focus that bothered me - By the time Mars was done - I was like "Yes I get it, Cerberus is bad, I know this already, lets move on."

...but we didn't move on - Cerberus, rather than the Reapers, were so much of our focus, and that irked me.

I imagine though, that had I not played ME2 and ME1 - my opinion of this would be very different.

However, Cerberus fits, because they are really helping the Reapers.

We need more bad guys than just zombies and Lovecraftian ships. We need human ones as well.

Absoloutely...

..and had we faced several former human allies that turned to us due to indoctrination or self preservation - I would have been singing BioWares praises.

But Cerberus was already evil, it was already known they were not right.

What we needed - was we needed an Anders like situation - where one of our allies about half way through killed a squad mate or WAS a squad mate - it would have crushed me as a player and made me start looking at every other character as a potential traitor.

[txgoldrush]

Wowky wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

Like I said it a few times before.... THE POTENTIAL! ME3 could've been great! But Bioware wanted it to be mediocre.

Why do people keep blaming Bioware and saying they planned a **** game? Why would someone intentionally try to make a crap game?

It's quite clear that time and budget constraints imposed by EA were really Bioware's undoing here, not their desire. The fact all these things were initially in there just goes to highlight how high they set their sights. I'd honestly have been willing to wait another year for ME3 if we got all that sort of detail.

You never know, large chunks of this might well be put back in through DLC

Its not EA, they have more budget under EA than they did before.

Hell, look at ME1....there is no way that game was not rushed and lacked funding. Honestly, tell me underdeveloped storylines, repeating areas barren planets, bugs, unbalanced combat and atrocious inventory, and techincal hitches weren't a result of a rush job....it was clear that the 360 version of ME1 was not finished.

And consider Omega has to be completely rewritten and in the leak files, seemed cut already.

Most of this was cut because it simply disrupts the flow of the story and does not work. Hell, this draft looks like a bunch of brainstorming, not a full realized story.

[txgoldrush]

Icinix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Oh I don't disagree on the point of why they were trying to do - but like the child - I don't think it was necessary.

I was anti-cerberus and knew what they were prior to ME3. Nothing they did came as a surprise - it was expected. It was only their focus that bothered me - By the time Mars was done - I was like "Yes I get it, Cerberus is bad, I know this already, lets move on."

...but we didn't move on - Cerberus, rather than the Reapers, were so much of our focus, and that irked me.

I imagine though, that had I not played ME2 and ME1 - my opinion of this would be very different.

However, Cerberus fits, because they are really helping the Reapers.

We need more bad guys than just zombies and Lovecraftian ships. We need human ones as well.

Absoloutely...

..and had we faced several former human allies that turned to us due to indoctrination or self preservation - I would have been singing BioWares praises.

But Cerberus was already evil, it was already known they were not right.

What we needed - was we needed an Anders like situation - where one of our allies about half way through killed a squad mate or WAS a squad mate - it would have crushed me as a player and made me start looking at every other character as a potential traitor.

No, this does not work. But we do have other baddies like Wreav and Xen, who are allies we are forced to accept.

Cerberus works because they are part of Shepards story and that they were the main faction of ME2.

It would be jarring if Cerberus was not major in ME3.

[Andy the Black]

I like a lot of this stuff, especially the Javik/Eden Prime/Coup stuff.

I think a some of the ideas or concepts here might show up as DLC and that would be great, but I love Mass 3 and having the "what might have been" mentality puts me on a road I don't want to go down.

[Icinix]

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Oh I don't disagree on the point of why they were trying to do - but like the child - I don't think it was necessary.

I was anti-cerberus and knew what they were prior to ME3. Nothing they did came as a surprise - it was expected. It was only their focus that bothered me - By the time Mars was done - I was like "Yes I get it, Cerberus is bad, I know this already, lets move on."

...but we didn't move on - Cerberus, rather than the Reapers, were so much of our focus, and that irked me.

I imagine though, that had I not played ME2 and ME1 - my opinion of this would be very different.

However, Cerberus fits, because they are really helping the Reapers.

We need more bad guys than just zombies and Lovecraftian ships. We need human ones as well.

Absoloutely...

..and had we faced several former human allies that turned to us due to indoctrination or self preservation - I would have been singing BioWares praises.

But Cerberus was already evil, it was already known they were not right.

What we needed - was we needed an Anders like situation - where one of our allies about half way through killed a squad mate or WAS a squad mate - it would have crushed me as a player and made me start looking at every other character as a potential traitor.

No, this does not work. But we do have other baddies like Wreav and Xen, who are allies we are forced to accept.

Cerberus works because they are part of Shepards story and that they were the main faction of ME2.

It would be jarring if Cerberus was not major in ME3.

Meh. This is where I can't agree with you - it didn't work the way it was for me in ME3. It lessened it.

..but I'm a die hard ME1 gamer - which I thought was pretty damn near perfect, and was never a fan of Cerberus in ME2 taking such a prominent role - and I cop a lot for that.

So to each their own.

[iSousek]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wowky wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

Like I said it a few times before.... THE POTENTIAL! ME3 could've been great! But Bioware wanted it to be mediocre.

Why do people keep blaming Bioware and saying they planned a **** game? Why would someone intentionally try to make a crap game?

It's quite clear that time and budget constraints imposed by EA were really Bioware's undoing here, not their desire. The fact all these things were initially in there just goes to highlight how high they set their sights. I'd honestly have been willing to wait another year for ME3 if we got all that sort of detail.

You never know, large chunks of this might well be put back in through DLC

Its not EA, they have more budget under EA than they did before.

Hell, look at ME1....there is no way that game was not rushed and lacked funding. Honestly, tell me underdeveloped storylines, repeating areas barren planets, bugs, unbalanced combat and atrocious inventory, and techincal hitches weren't a result of a rush job....it was clear that the 360 version of ME1 was not finished.

And consider Omega has to be completely rewritten and in the leak files, seemed cut already.

Most of this was cut because it simply disrupts the flow of the story and does not work. Hell, this draft looks like a bunch of brainstorming, not a full realized story.

Them having a bigger budget under EA doesn't mean that they got the budget they needed. Also, there are other constrains such as time, human resources etc etc...

Also, things you are listing as arguments for "rushed ME1" don't really fall into the same category as arguments for "rushed ME3". In ME 1 it was mostly technical issues as you mentioned for example repeating eviornment. In ME 3 it is amputation of parts of lore-important content. There is only two explanations for the latter. Either they ran out of time, or they fundamentally didn't like that content.

Modifié par iSousek, 06 septembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[txgoldrush]

iSousek wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wowky wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

Like I said it a few times before.... THE POTENTIAL! ME3 could've been great! But Bioware wanted it to be mediocre.

Why do people keep blaming Bioware and saying they planned a **** game? Why would someone intentionally try to make a crap game?

It's quite clear that time and budget constraints imposed by EA were really Bioware's undoing here, not their desire. The fact all these things were initially in there just goes to highlight how high they set their sights. I'd honestly have been willing to wait another year for ME3 if we got all that sort of detail.

You never know, large chunks of this might well be put back in through DLC

Its not EA, they have more budget under EA than they did before.

Hell, look at ME1....there is no way that game was not rushed and lacked funding. Honestly, tell me underdeveloped storylines, repeating areas barren planets, bugs, unbalanced combat and atrocious inventory, and techincal hitches weren't a result of a rush job....it was clear that the 360 version of ME1 was not finished.

And consider Omega has to be completely rewritten and in the leak files, seemed cut already.

Most of this was cut because it simply disrupts the flow of the story and does not work. Hell, this draft looks like a bunch of brainstorming, not a full realized story.

Them having a bigger budget under EA doesn't mean that they got the budget they needed. Also, there are other constrains such as time, human resources etc etc...

Also, things you are listing as arguments for "rushed ME1" don't really fall into the same category as arguments for "rushed ME3". In ME 1 it was mostly technical issues as you mentioned for example repeating eviornment. In ME 3 it is amputation of parts of lore-important content. There is only two explanations for the latter. Either they ran out of time, or they fundamentally didn't like that content.

No, they cut it because they didn't like it, or because it clashes with what they are trying to portray.

Seriously, most of whats in the beta leak file probably wasn't even programmed in to be cut.

[sammysoso]

Damn, EA and their absurd deadlines.

Can you imagine if they forced the originally planned fall release? Good lord, that game would have been AWFUL.

[Raizo]

ThaDPG wrote...

I'm thinking we might get some of that stuff related to Aria with the Omega DLC coming out, and most of the rest of the stuff sounds awesome. Too bad we didn't get it....(yet anyway)

That's 19 deleted scenes from ME3. Are you willing to pay $10 for each of those and thus bringing the full price of ME3 to well over $200 ( or for those of us who bought the CE almost $300 ), alot of that stuff should have been in the game from the beginning.

[N7_Prothean95]

Oh gosh. I am hell depressed after I saw all of this. ME3 can be the most truly epic game in this year but EA screwed it up ! WHY EA ! WHY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[txgoldrush]

Raizo wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

I'm thinking we might get some of that stuff related to Aria with the Omega DLC coming out, and most of the rest of the stuff sounds awesome. Too bad we didn't get it....(yet anyway)

That's 19 deleted scenes from ME3. Are you willing to pay $10 for each of those and thus bringing the full price of ME3 to well over $200 ( or for those of us who bought the CE almost $300 ), alot of that stuff should have been in the game from the beginning.

Those are not deleted scenes from ME3, those are concepts, most which never materialized.

And Omega DLC will be very different from what was in that draft.

[Optimus J]

sporeian wrote...

This is what happens when you only give 2 years of development time and no money!

People keep saying TWO YEARS. but it was REALLY 2 years of development or just 2 years between titles?

Because there were 3 huge DLCs in-between. I doubt they REALLY started to develop ME3 until they started to develop Arrival.

[Noelemahc]

Raizo wrote...
That's 19 deleted scenes from ME3. Are you willing to pay $10 for each of those and thus bringing the full price of ME3 to well over $200 ( or for those of us who bought the CE almost $300 ), alot of that stuff should have been in the game from the beginning.

If you're referring to the numbered list in the OP, that's 19 posts about an uncounted number of deleted or altered scenes. Slightly different mathematics there. You'd manage six DLCs out of this at most:
* Life On Omega And Beyond Omega-4 (including Aria's sidequests including General Armitage's And Zaeed Messani's Hot Messy Death On a Primordial World)
* The Citadel Conspiracies (Cerberus Coup Conspirators; Daro'Xen's Dastardly Xenophobic Deadly Xperiments; and Thane & Kolyat's Totally Kool Termination & Killer Triple Konspiracy)
* From Ashes: The Uncut Edition (featuring Javik having to recover his memories to even remember who he is; Liara and Shepard not speaking Prothean and Kai Leng being a credible competent villain)
* Characterization Galore (decompressed character reactions to the Coup; decompressed squad banter on ALL the missions and onboard the ship; Vega romanceable; Team Dextro Threesome)
* The Quarian Dirty Dozen (a.k.a. "Kal'Reegar's A-Team");
* Take Back Earth (where your war assets actually affect the outcome of the space battle AND groundside operations and there's more plot than "survive wave after wave of enemies in each confined zone").

Of course, many of them would have to be rewritten now that Javik is no longer the Catalyst and Leviathans are in the mix.

[Mixxer5]

Those things are brilliant! Why the hell were they cut?! For art?

[dorktainian]

N7_Prothean95 wrote...

Oh gosh. I am hell depressed after I saw all of this. ME3 can be the most truly epic game in this year but EA screwed it up ! WHY EA ! WHY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

$

[MaggotFragger]

Vorcha eating people? WHY DID THEY NOT INCLUDE THIS?!

[Kia Purity]

Screw the idea of another Virmire-like choice.

The first time around was stupid.

Quite frankly, I'm happy that was tossed out of the airlock and I was so terrified when I accidentally saw the "spoilers" for Cerberus coup mission because I had it made out to be worse than what actually happened in the game.

[Element Zero]

 Over the last two days, I've read through all of the data-mined content. For the most part, the ideas therein were great. I really like the path they were on when Javik was the Catalyst, and the Crucible was a Prothean device with the sole purpose of defeating the Reapers. That whole plot line (in all its variety in these mined data) seemed to stay much truer to, and tie in much more frequently with the events and lore of the first two games.

I have mixed feelings after reading all these different ideas the team had entertained. On the one hand, I was pumped to read the incredible, creative writing that the team had done during these stages. I am kind of depressed, though, when I consider ME3 in light of these early plans. It is obvious the team intended to create the kind of game we were all expecting they would create -- a game with allusions to many of our small choices and consequences for the major ones. Priority: Earth was going to be a Suicide Mission with bigger stakes. So many of the things we've discussed these last 6 months were things they'd clearly intended to include, at some stage of development.

I realize a lot gets left on the scrap pile with huge collaborative undertakings like ME3, but a lot of the things not present in this game were things that would have blended seamlessly into the game as released, and weren't implausible, in terms of technical demands. Much of the discarded content would fill in the perceived gaps and awkward plot jumps.

That being the case, I can only conclude that the team lacked either the time, the resources or both needed to create the game that both they and their fans desired. What happened and why I don't expect we'll ever know, and it's likely not completely one-sided. I know I feel badly for the ME3 teams. It has to hurt that they so badly under delivered (in the opinion of many), when the story was there in the notes.

Modifié par tallrickruush, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:36 .