76 réponses à ce sujet

[BroBear Berbil]

The damage would have been done long before any Grey Wardens could come from Orlais even if Loghain wanted the help. In a what if scenario I would imagine Loghain riding out against the blight full of pride with what was left of Ferelden's armies and having a spectacular death like Cailan.

[Original182]

Nope because Loghain would never bring in foreigners, even Grey Wardens. His paranoia of Orlais or any foreigners run too deep.

Even if by some chance, near the end he wanted to bring in outside help, it would be too late.
We've heard bits and pieces of that from Alisair and Riordan. Alistair said the nearest Grey Warden headquarters are too far and they would come too late. Riordan said other countries would write off Ferelden as a lost cause, and would rather prepare themselves to defend from the coming Blight once Ferelden has fallen.

There is some small chance that Loghain may release Riordan, and ask Riordan to turn him into a Grey Warden, then the 2 of them would try to land the killing blow. But again, by the time Loghain comes to his senses, it would be only once the Archdemon arrives at Denerim, and it would be too late.

[The Capital Gaultier]

He would most likely have died if he'd succeeded. Orlais would either get credit for ending the Blight, or be the nation where most of the battles for Thedas' future would be fought against the Blight.

[The Angry One]

Ferelden burns, and Loghain goes to his grave saying "At least I didn't let Orlais win!".

[Alastrian]

Loghain winning at his civil war and against the Grey Wardens would be the best thing to ever happen to the Orlesian Empire.



The Chevaliers could just ride back into Fereldan with Orlesian Grey Wardens in tow, end the Blight, and to the few Fereldans who somehow survived the insurmountable odds, the Orlesians would all of a sudden be heroic liberators instead of the rapers of Fereldan women and eaters of Fereldan babies.

[robertthebard]

Spectre24 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

The damage would have been done long before any Grey Wardens could come from Orlais even if Loghain wanted the help. In a what if scenario I would imagine Loghain riding out against the blight full of pride with what was left of Ferelden's armies and having a spectacular death like Cailan.

I'm not saying that Ferelden would've come out unscathed, if it survived at all. However I find it highly unlikely Loghain would do such a thing, considering it was that kind of attitude that Cailan possesed that made him feel it was necessary to take control of Ferelden's situation.

If Ferelden didn't survive at all, then Loghain's plan was full of fail.  That this was happening can be evidenced by discussion in the Gnawed Noble prior to the Landsmeet, even if you don't talk to anyone directly.  The two nobles chatting in the booth by the bar give good evidence of this, and if you talk to the noble by the door, he will tell you that his holdings have already fallen to the Blight.  Not to mention Lothering.

[Alien1099]

Ferelden would be raped, pillaged, and burned.

Loghain did not have a sufficiently strong army to counter the blight. It took his army + the dwarves + the elves (or werewolves if you're the evil type) + the Mage circle + Redcliffe's forces + the Grey Wardens to defeat it. He proactively worked against the mages and nearly killed them all as well as Redcliffe's people. Without the PC's help both of these would have been wiped out. Even if he had the aid of the elves and dwarves they wouldn't have been sufficient to overcome the blight seeing as how Riordan spoke of how the even the fully combined army would not last long unless they killed the Archdemon. Nevermind the fact that without any Grey Wardens, they wouldn't be able to slay the Archdemon.

Eventually the other nations would defeat the blight with the aid of the Grey Wardens, but Ferelden would be no more. Not only would it be gone but its people would have been used to breed even more Darkspawn and bolster their forces.

Modifié par Alien1099, 25 décembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Alastrian]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

I agree with Alastrian, only that the Darkspawn will have all of Ferelden and most of Thedas will have to unite against the threat.

As it is, Fereldan didn't need to unite with all of Thedas to end the Blight. Of course, Loghain would have been guaranteed to fail, seeing as how the dwarves, Dalish elves and mages don't have the same obligation to him that they do to the Grey Wardens.

But anyway, I imagine the Orlesian reinforcements that Loghain turned away after abandoning the king would probably still be hanging around at the border. As soon as news reaches them about Loghain's civil war victory, the Orlesian Grey Wardens would immediately send someone to petition the Empress to give them more chevaliers and head in there quickly.

And of course, I doubt the empress who believes Fereldan to be 'one bad day away from reverting to barbarism' would pass up the chance for the glory that would come from her part in ending the Blight and averting the descent to barbarism that this particular 'bad day' has brought about in Fereldan.

I have a feeling that by then, the Darkspawn will break through Orzammmar and then go under ground unnoticed and hit the Orlesian Empire and any other nation in their within. Perhaps it could be partly done by annihilating Kal Sharok. For all we know, they may have never dealt with Darkspawn.

I doubt they could hit the Orlesian Empire unnoticed. Grey Wardens sense darkspawn, and Orlais still have all of their Grey Wardens. And if the dwarves aren't coming to the surface, given that their obligation is to the Grey Wardens and not Loghain, they'll likely put up a good fight were the Darkspawn to try and move towards Orlais that way... at least long enough for the Orlesian empress to send more chevaliers to bolster the original Orlesian reinforcements intended for King Cailin and Duncan.

Besides, Orzammar has held out against the darkspawn this long during times between blights when almost all of the darkspawn are underground. Its not like the darkspawn suddenly have a big enough horde to overwhelm Orzammar simply because they happened upon an Old God that took on their taint and sent them to the surface.

And as for them moving through Kal-Sharok... were they to do that, not only would they contend with Orlais, but the Anderfels as well... and the Grey Wardens are at their most powerful there, given that Weisshaupt is there, and they have greater influence there than even the Ander king.

If a Blight were to spread from Fereldan to Orlais, it would have to be through the Frostback Mountains. With Fereldan already destroyed, they'd be stupid to go via Kal-Sharok where they'd be outflanked by an army of angry Anderfel Grey Wardens.

[ReubenLiew]

What, none of you don't believe that Loghain might've kicked ass?

I mean, look at that voice! He could scold the Archdemon into submission and sidetrack it towards Orlais.

[Grommash94]

If Loghain won, Ferelden would have been damned. Bye bye wet dog smelling nation

[Alastrian]

Alien1099 wrote...

Ferelden would be raped, pillaged, and burned.

Loghain did not have a sufficiently strong army to counter the blight. It took his army + the dwarves + the elves (or werewolves if you're the evil type) + the Mage circle + Redcliffe's forces + the Grey Wardens to defeat it. He proactively worked against the mages and nearly killed them all as well as Redcliffe's people. Without the PC's help both of these would have been wiped out. Even if he had the aid of the elves and dwarves they wouldn't have been sufficient to overcome the blight seeing as how Riordan spoke of how the even the fully combined army would not last long unless they killed the Archdemon. Nevermind the fact that without any Grey Wardens, they wouldn't be able to slay the Archdemon.

And of course, Loghain would not be able to secure the aid of the dwarves or the Dalish. They're obligated to aid the Grey Wardens, not Loghain. I'd imagine that whether ruled by Harrowmont or Bhelen, the dwarves would simply hunker down in Orzammar and wait it out (I don't believe for one moment that Bhelen is genuine when he says his first priority is ending the Blight... he's trying to get a Grey Warden ally at that point).

As for the Dalish... they'd probably try to flee Fereldan rather than help a human kingdom... centuries after the Exalted March against the Dales, they still harbour a deep grudge (and this isn't even taking into account the possibility of word reaching them that Loghain sold Alienage elves to slavers from the Tevinter Imperium, who were responsible for destroying the first elven nation).

And the mages... if there are any left... they would likely remain in their tower and hope the darkspawn can't build boats. Not only are they not obligated to Loghain as they are the Grey Wardens, but they'd certainly be more disinclined to help him given that he aided an abomination's coup against the Circle. They'd likely only come out when the Orlesian Grey Wardens arrive.

[Original182]

Alastrian wrote...
But anyway, I imagine the Orlesian reinforcements that Loghain turned away after abandoning the king would probably still be hanging around at the border. As soon as news reaches them about Loghain's civil war victory, the Orlesian Grey Wardens would immediately send someone to petition the Empress to give them more chevaliers and head in there quickly.

Hang on, Loghain has been opposed to bringing in Orlesian chevaliers even up till the Landsmeet. Even if the Orlesians were to come in with intentions to help, Loghain would just charge them back and kill them. From Loghain's civil wars, we can safely say he is capable of that. He hates Orlais too much to listen to them.

Riordan has mentioned that Orlais and other countries may write Ferelden off as a lost cause and begin preparations to defend their own countries against the Blight.

So I don't think reinforcements will ever come. Loghain has to beat the Blight by himself.

[Alastrian]

Original182 wrote...

Alastrian wrote...
But anyway, I imagine the Orlesian reinforcements that Loghain turned away after abandoning the king would probably still be hanging around at the border. As soon as news reaches them about Loghain's civil war victory, the Orlesian Grey Wardens would immediately send someone to petition the Empress to give them more chevaliers and head in there quickly.

Hang on, Loghain has been opposed to bringing in Orlesian chevaliers even up till the Landsmeet. Even if the Orlesians were to come in with intentions to help, Loghain would just charge them back and kill them. From Loghain's civil wars, we can safely say he is capable of that. He hates Orlais too much to listen to them.

Hard for him to kick them out when he's got his hands full fighting a horde of darkspawn led by an archdemon.

I didn't mean the Orlesians would be reinforcing Loghain. They'd be making preparations to go in there to fight the darkspawn after Loghain gets his butt handed to him. By the time that happens, the troops that were originally intended as reinforcements for Cailin and Duncan would be bolstered and ready to move in.

Riordan has mentioned that Orlais and other countries may write Ferelden off as a lost cause and begin preparations to defend their own countries against the Blight.

Riordan is just one man... sure he has the age and experience and has likely dealt with royalty throughout his career... but what makes him so certain the Orlesian empress wouldn't decide to launch a preemptive strike against the darkspawn before the Blight can spread to Orlais? Especially given that Orlais still has all of its Grey Wardens and they'd know exactly where to go to reach the archdemon as quickly as possible.

So I don't think reinforcements will ever come. Loghain has to beat the Blight by himself.

No... reinforcements would not come for Loghain... you misunderstood what I was saying. Sounds opportunistic of them, but the Orlesians would only be heading in after Loghain and the bulk of Fereldan's army get slaughtered.

[Alastrian]

And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

[The Angry One]

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

Meh, I don't see the Christian run world doing much to prevent Bethlehem from becoming a war-torn crap hole, to draw a real world analogy.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Alastrian wrote...
But anyway, I imagine the Orlesian reinforcements that Loghain turned away after abandoning the king would probably still be hanging around at the border. As soon as news reaches them about Loghain's civil war victory, the Orlesian Grey Wardens would immediately send someone to petition the Empress to give them more chevaliers and head in there quickly.

Hang on, Loghain has been opposed to bringing in Orlesian chevaliers even up till the Landsmeet. Even if the Orlesians were to come in with intentions to help, Loghain would just charge them back and kill them. From Loghain's civil wars, we can safely say he is capable of that. He hates Orlais too much to listen to them.

Riordan has mentioned that Orlais and other countries may write Ferelden off as a lost cause and begin preparations to defend their own countries against the Blight.

So I don't think reinforcements will ever come. Loghain has to beat the Blight by himself.

Hey, you get your wish in the other topic even sooner than you thought.  *Braces for explosion.*

Loghain will not ask for help.  His stated position from the start is that asking for Orlesian help is a "fool notion".  Considering his maniacal hatred of Orlais, which one could say is justified, considering Ferelden recent history, he's surely not going to bend and ask for the help.

[Original182]

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any
nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to
just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

It's not up to them to decide. There was probably separation of state and religion in Thedas. Chantry governs religious and magic matters, rulers govern stately matters, and neither interfere in each other.

The Chantry cannot influence the Empress of Orlais and Loghain to work together for the better of Thedas-kind.

If Orlais were to reconquer Ferelden, the Chantry can always reestablish itself in Ferelden.

Modifié par Original182, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[ReubenLiew]

The Angry One wrote...
Meh, I don't see the Christian run world doing much to prevent Bethlehem from becoming a war-torn crap hole, to draw a real world analogy.

Thats what happens when you disband the Templars *shakes head* Personally I blame Jesus. God was one angry m'frakker badass, but the minute he gets a kid BAM, he's a softie.
Shame, really.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
Hey, you get your wish in the other topic even sooner than you thought.  *Braces for explosion.*

Loghain will not ask for help.  His stated position from the start is that asking for Orlesian help is a "fool notion".  Considering his maniacal hatred of Orlais, which one could say is justified, considering Ferelden recent history, he's surely not going to bend and ask for the help.

Yeah but I misunderstood him. He didn't mean Orlais would help Loghain.
He meant Orlais would enter Ferelden AFTER Loghain has been utterly crushed. So Orlais would re-conquer Ferelden.

Maybe next time, was really close to an explosion.

[Grommash94]

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

Some believe Andraste was born in Orlais.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any
nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to
just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

It's not up to them to decide. There was probably separation of state and religion in Thedas. Chantry governs religious and magic matters, rulers govern stately matters, and neither interfere in each other.

The Chantry cannot influence the Empress of Orlais and Loghain to work together for the better of Thedas-kind.

If Orlais were to reconquer Ferelden, the Chantry can always reestablish itself in Ferelden.

I see this as being extremely likely.  When you find the Templar in Howe's basement, if you have Alistair, he will point out that Nobles have no authority over Templars.  Since the Templars are a direct branch of the Chantry, this would seem to unilaterally apply.

[Original182]

Grommash94 wrote...
Some believe Andraste was born in Orlais.

*requests for Exalted March on Grommash94*