76 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Well, I don't see why anybody is counting on Riordan because Howe had him dying in a dungeon. Without your aid, he would never be found. I doubt the man would have lasted another couple days in that care. Loghain would literally have no Grey Warden help. Thus when he beat Ferelden into his way of thinking, it would be too late. No elf or dwarf would help him, not that the elves are in a position to help or even run in their condition since it is the PC that enables them to do anything besides go "HO ****!" when dealing with the werewolves.



The dwarves would probably still be deadlocked by the time it was too late and the Circle would be under Uldred's control or completely put to the sword by the templars. Eamon would be dead and his village lining the gullet of the damned.



So Loghain's plots only lead to him leading a shell force of weary nobles into a battle he cannot win. His daughter would be a figurehead upon a worthless throne, assuming her skeleton can hold up a crown or her womb isn't filled with Hurlocks.



Loghain's Victory might be the forum's best Oxymoron.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Hey, you get your wish in the other topic even sooner than you thought.  *Braces for explosion.*

Loghain will not ask for help.  His stated position from the start is that asking for Orlesian help is a "fool notion".  Considering his maniacal hatred of Orlais, which one could say is justified, considering Ferelden recent history, he's surely not going to bend and ask for the help.

Yeah but I misunderstood him. He didn't mean Orlais would help Loghain.
He meant Orlais would enter Ferelden AFTER Loghain has been utterly crushed. So Orlais would re-conquer Ferelden.

Maybe next time, was really close to an explosion.

Actually, I don't see that as a likely outcome.  If Ferelden falls to the Blight, who's next?  It would be more likely they would fortify to protect land they still hold, rather than pull a Loghain and ignore the more imminent threat first.  If they do manage to quell the Blight, they will have to do so w/out benefit of the treaties, which are in the PC's possession in Ostagar, based on this scenario, they may consider claiming Ferelden, but I really think they'll focus on the Blight first, and Riordan's dialog would support this position.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

With the Wardens dead...



Orzammar would still be stuck in stalemate between Bhelen and Harrowmont, so they wouldn't help out unless Orzammar was under attack itself



Dalish werewolf situation would still be unresolved, but both groups would no doubt have got decimated by the darkspawn.



Most likely Uldred's plan would have occured and there would be demons running amok out of the tower. Be intriguing what the situation would be with the Archdemon and Uldred? Join forces or fight each other? Hard to say really.



Eamon would've ended up dead and Bann Teagan and the rest turned into demons or undead. Think at some point Connor's demon would have ended up either joining with Uldred or fighting him.



The rest of Ferelden, wiped out. What with the demons involved, possibly joining forces with the darkspawn even the rest of the nations would have their work cut out for them but would most likely prevail. Don't think Ferelden would ever be truly recovered though.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...
Some believe Andraste was born in Orlais.

*requests for Exalted March on Grommash94*

No need, but what the hey..In game lore supports Andraste being born in Ferelden.  I have seen nothing that contradicts that.

[Herr Uhl]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Most likely Uldred's plan would have occured and there would be demons running amok out of the tower. Be intriguing what the situation would be with the Archdemon and Uldred? Join forces or fight each other? Hard to say really.

Fight! Demons do not like darspawn, no fun to possess.

[Herr Uhl]

robertthebard wrote...
No need, but what the hey..In game lore supports Andraste being born in Ferelden.  I have seen nothing that contradicts that.

Patriots will always end up doing stuff like that. Just look at mormons.

[Alastrian]

The Angry One wrote...

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

Meh, I don't see the Christian run world doing much to prevent Bethlehem from becoming a war-torn crap hole, to draw a real world analogy.

Heh... true enough. But Christendom got its butt handed to it a few times trying to 'take back' that area before they 'wrote it off'.

Back to Thedas... how many times has the Chantry had its butt handed to it by 'infidels', other than Brother Burkel's ending if you help him set up a Chantry in Orzammar?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Most likely Uldred's plan would have occured and there would be demons running amok out of the tower. Be intriguing what the situation would be with the Archdemon and Uldred? Join forces or fight each other? Hard to say really.

Fight! Demons do not like darspawn, no fun to possess.

Good point, so basically, Orlais and nearby countries bolster their defences, close off the borders with Ferelden and let the Darkspawn and Demons duke it out until erm... can either side truly win in this contest?

[Alastrian]

Original182 wrote...

It's not up to them to decide. There was probably separation of state and religion in Thedas. Chantry governs religious and magic matters, rulers govern stately matters, and neither interfere in each other.

The relationship between the rulers and the Chantry seems to be somewhat of a marriage of convience. The kingdoms harbour them, allow them to build their places of worship and if necessary to help the Templars protect them. The Grand Cleric of a particular nation's branch of the Chantry holds much influence among the faithful when it comes to the question of legitimacy of who is in power. For example, the Grand Cleric of Fereldan's Chantry proved to be somewhat of a stumbling block for Maric at first, seeing as how she endorsed the usurper.

The Chantry cannot influence the Empress of Orlais and Loghain to work together for the better of Thedas-kind.

Are we talking about the same Chantry who reintroduced the elves to the jackboot of human oppression simply because they had the nerve to want to restore their own culture?

If Orlais were to reconquer Ferelden, the Chantry can always reestablish itself in Ferelden.

Which is precisely why the Chantry would be pestering the empress of Orlais to go in there in the first place.

[Original182]

Alastrian wrote...
Are we talking about the same Chantry who reintroduced the elves to the jackboot of human oppression simply because they had the nerve to want to restore their own culture?

That was an Exalted March which was religious in manner; the elves didn't want to worship the Maker. So yes the Chantry will do Exalted Marches for religion's sake and also against places with religious persecution on Chantry people (like what happened to Brother Burke). But again they have no say in stately matters, and cannot force the Queen of Orlais and Loghain to cooperate.

Which is precisely why the Chantry would be pestering the empress of Orlais to go in there in the first place.

This is probably the first time robert and I agree on something. I think the Queen of Orlais would more likely defend her own country first, rather than send in reinforcements right away. She won't be in a rush to enter Ferelden. She would probably wait for Ferelden to be nicely stirred and boiled in darkspawn, before working with other countries to defeat the Blight.

And she may have to fight over other countries to claim Ferelden. But I
don't know what countries border Ferelden other than Orlais.

The Chantry in Orlais may accept Ferelden Chantry people and peasants who flee, and wait till Ferelden is reclaimed before reestablishing themselves again. So again they won't be in any rush to go there.

Modifié par Original182, 25 décembre 2009 - 04:43 .

[Xandurpein]

Since Loghain's main fault is that he will simply be blind to facts he doesn't want to hear. I think he will simply refuse to listen to Riordan trying to explain that only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon. He will convince himself that Riordan is just lying to get out of prison. Consequently Loghain will waste his resources trying to kill an unbeatable Archdemon. If he ever comes to his senses on his own, it will be to late for Ferelden. I can see him personally lead the final charge and die bravely but in vain. Hopefully the rest of the world have enough Grey wardens to stop the blight, but I believe Ferelden would be toast.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Quick little fact, Chantry has its own Army... An Exalted March is no more special than a nobility equivalent marching an army on an enemy. Nobody gave a damn about the elves so nobody stopped them.



So yea, they have their own army to deliver the jackboots.

[Alastrian]

Original182 wrote...

Alastrian wrote...
Are we talking about the same Chantry who reintroduced the elves to the jackboot of human oppression simply because they had the nerve to want to restore their own culture?

That was an Exalted March which was religious in manner; the elves didn't want to worship the Maker. So yes the Chantry will do Exalted Marches for religion's sake and also against places with religious persecution on Chantry people (like what happened to Brother Burke). But again they have no say in stately manners, and cannot force the Queen of Orlais and Loghain to cooperate.

Exalted Marches on places where the Chantry is 'persecuted'... Rites of Annulment granting Templar the authority to purge a Circle of Magi... the Chantry isn't exactly toothless. They do wield some secular authority as well as religious.

But why would the Empress of Orlais have to be 'forced' by the Chantry to invade Fereldan to destroy the darkspawn and help the Grey Wardens end the Blight when there's glory to be had in that? After Loghain is crushed by the darkspawn, she could invade Fereldan, giving Orlesian Grey Wardens the chance to go for the jugular of the darkspawn threat, and whoever is left in Fereldan afterwards could almost forget that a generation ago, her predecessor put a pompous tyrannical brat on their throne when a descendent of Calenhad still lived.

This is probably the first time robert and I agree on something. I think the Queen of Orlais would more likely defend her own country first, rather than send in reinforcements right away. She won't be in a rush to enter Ferelden. She would probably wait for Ferelden to be nicely stirred and boiled in darkspawn, before working with other countries to defeat the Blight.

True enough... but I imagine another reason why she'd have to wait is for her forces at the border that were originally Cailin's reinforcements to be sufficiently bolstered. So the time between the moment they're turned away by Loghain's men, and the moment Loghain is destroyed by the darkspawn would be pretty well spent ensuring that the invasion force is sufficiently prepared.

And she may have to fight over other countries to claim Ferelden. But I
don't know what countries border Ferelden other than Orlais.

I don't see any other nation contesting control of Fereldan. Its a long way from anywhere other than Orlais (at least by land), and by that point it would have been ruined by the Blight. Because Orlais has a history with Fereldan, in which this great big empire with its legions of chevaliers was humiliated by a people who are 'one bad day away from reverting to barbarism'. Surely it would bring that humiliation full circle for those same 'almost barbarian' people were left with no choice but to accept Orlesian rule.

The irony of a Loghain victory at the Landsmeet being the best thing to happen to Orlais is certainly a delicious morsel.

The Chantry in Orlais may accept Ferelden Chantry people and peasants who flee, and wait till Ferelden is reclaimed before reestablishing themselves again. So again they won't be in any rush to go there.

Well of course... the Orlesian Grand Cleric, being an Orlesian herself would be more concerned with the Orlesians... so its only natural she'd rather the Orlesians take their time to prepare before they go into Fereldan, and to grant amnesty to Fereldan refugees in the meantime (if there would really be that many Fereldans who would want to even swallow their pride to go beg for safe passage from the nation that had oppressed them just one generation ago).

[Grommash94]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...
Some believe Andraste was born in Orlais.

*requests for Exalted March on Grommash94*

No need, but what the hey..In game lore supports Andraste being born in Ferelden.  I have seen nothing that contradicts that.

I am pretty sure I read a codex where, although most accept that Andraste was born in Ferelden, some Orlesians claim she came from there. 

[Alastrian]

Xandurpein wrote...

Since Loghain's main fault is that he will simply be blind to facts he doesn't want to hear. I think he will simply refuse to listen to Riordan trying to explain that only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon. He will convince himself that Riordan is just lying to get out of prison. Consequently Loghain will waste his resources trying to kill an unbeatable Archdemon. If he ever comes to his senses on his own, it will be to late for Ferelden. I can see him personally lead the final charge and die bravely but in vain. Hopefully the rest of the world have enough Grey wardens to stop the blight, but I believe Ferelden would be toast.

Technically, one Grey Warden is enough to stop a Blight since slaying the archdemon sends the darkspawn packing. Having hundreds of Grey Wardens in a nation is an insurance policy, seeing as how chances of taking down the archdemon are slim if it all comes down to just one person.

[menasure]

i wonder if the qunari would do something after Loghain falls. while the few orlesians you meet in game seem to flee Ferelden or prefer to stay in Orlais Sten and his scout party were investigating the blight for a reason.

Modifié par menasure, 25 décembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[Original182]

Alastrian wrote...
Exalted Marches on places where the Chantry is 'persecuted'... Rites of Annulment granting Templar the authority to purge a Circle of Magi... the Chantry isn't exactly toothless. They do wield some secular authority as well as religious.

But why would the Empress of Orlais have to be 'forced' by the Chantry to invade Fereldan to destroy the darkspawn and help the Grey Wardens end the Blight when there's glory to be had in that? After Loghain is crushed by the darkspawn, she could invade Fereldan, giving Orlesian Grey Wardens the chance to go for the jugular of the darkspawn threat, and whoever is left in Fereldan afterwards could almost forget that a generation ago, her predecessor put a pompous tyrannical brat on their throne when a descendent of Calenhad still lived.

No I was referring to your post:

Alastrian wrote...
And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its
ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of
their prophet?

My original point was that the Chantry cannot ask the Orlesian Queen to do anything for Ferelden, because it would involve armies and result in an international incident. The Queen will most likely write Ferelden off as a lost cause and prepare to defend Orlais against the Blight, and Ferelden being the birthplace of Andraste will not change her mind about it. This was when we were talking about the Queen sending troops into Ferelden.

Even if the Chantry in Orlais is concerned with the symbolic meaning of Ferelden being Andraste's birthplace, they can always wait till Orlais reclaim Ferelden, and reestablish the Chantry there, as per my previous post.

The Queen of Orlais will have enough motivation to enter Ferelden later, and not need the Chantry's urging. I never disputed this.
I was reinforcing that the Chantry has no say in Ferelden, and the reasons are twofold. One, the Chantry has no say in stately matters, and two, the Queen of Orlais probably doesn't care to send armies for the sake of religion.

Modifié par Original182, 25 décembre 2009 - 05:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Alastrian wrote...

And as another point... why would any nation with the Chantry as its ultimate religious authority want to just 'write off' the birthplace of their prophet?

Meh, I don't see the Christian run world doing much to prevent Bethlehem from becoming a war-torn crap hole, to draw a real world analogy.

This is full of win.

[Xandurpein]

Alastrian wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Since Loghain's main fault is that he will simply be blind to facts he doesn't want to hear. I think he will simply refuse to listen to Riordan trying to explain that only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon. He will convince himself that Riordan is just lying to get out of prison. Consequently Loghain will waste his resources trying to kill an unbeatable Archdemon. If he ever comes to his senses on his own, it will be to late for Ferelden. I can see him personally lead the final charge and die bravely but in vain. Hopefully the rest of the world have enough Grey wardens to stop the blight, but I believe Ferelden would be toast.

Technically, one Grey Warden is enough to stop a Blight since slaying the archdemon sends the darkspawn packing. Having hundreds of Grey Wardens in a nation is an insurance policy, seeing as how chances of taking down the archdemon are slim if it all comes down to just one person.

This doesn't matter as Loghain will exhaust his armies and himself trying to kill the Archdemon with NO Grey Warden at all. He will simply refuse to believe anyone telling him omly a Grey Warden kan kill the Archdemon until it's too late and Ferelden is in ruins.

[Vicious]

The problem here is that NOBODY KNOWS why Grey Wardens are needed to stop the Archdemon.



All the public is ever told are tales of their battle prowess: And since they got wtfowned at Ostagar, Loghain decided that the stories of Grey Warden prowess was just that: A bunch of stories.



So he would have most definetly died and Ferelden along with it if he won.



Also, if you make him a party member, Loghain explains that his intention if he won was to divide his forces between fighting Darkspawn and guarding the Orlais border. Your character can point out "How can you divide your forced that way, we lost too many at Ostagar." to which Loghain replies, "I know that! It wasn't a GOOD plan but it was all I had!"





So he would have died and Ferelden would have been crushed. Now that that's out the way, here's another question: What would Loghain have done differently if EVERYONE knew just why Grey Wardens are needed to defeat a Blight?



He probably would have done a lot differently.

[The Angry One]

He might have, or he might have dismissed it as Grey Warden/Orlesian propaganda.

Loghain is too bitter and narrow-minded to consider anything else, he *never* listened to what they Grey Wardens had to say.

[AntiChri5]

The Angry One wrote...

He might have, or he might have dismissed it as Grey Warden/Orlesian propaganda.
Loghain is too bitter and narrow-minded to consider anything else, he *never* listened to what they Grey Wardens had to say.

As bloody usual i find myself agreeing with Angry here.

[Tirigon]

If Loghain had succeeded, he could have defeated the blight. After all, the wardens are needed to destroy the archdemons soul, not to kill him. Everyone can do that. Sure, he will be reborn then, but do you think Loghain cares? When the Archdemon is back, Loghain will be long dead already, so what?

However, Ferelden´s victory would not have been useful. Living under Loghain´s rule is no way better than living under the archdemon´s rule.

[Xandurpein]

The Angry One wrote...

He might have, or he might have dismissed it as Grey Warden/Orlesian propaganda.
Loghain is too bitter and narrow-minded to consider anything else, he *never* listened to what they Grey Wardens had to say.

That was my whole point. Unless banged on the head (litteraly) in the Landsmeet, Loghain will simply believe what he wants to belive. Even if the fact that "only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon" was widely known, his instinct would be to dismiss it as propaganda until proven otherwise. And proof would probably be Ferelden in ruins and Loghain dying with an "oh s**t" on his lips.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

If Loghain had succeeded, he could have defeated the blight. After all, the wardens are needed to destroy the archdemons soul, not to kill him. Everyone can do that. Sure, he will be reborn then, but do you think Loghain cares? When the Archdemon is back, Loghain will be long dead already, so what?
However, Ferelden´s victory would not have been useful. Living under Loghain´s rule is no way better than living under the archdemon´s rule.

An interesting notion, We have only vague knowledge of exactly how long time it takes for the Archdemon to manifest himself again in his new body. But to me the stories of the first Blight indicates that it's not a very long time before the Archdemon resurface again. The stories of the first Grey Wardens seem to me to indicate that it was all part of one Blight and that it was days or weeks, rather than years or decades, before the first Archdemon came back and could eventually be killed for good. Anyone uncovered better facts to settle this one? 

Tirigon wrote...

However, Ferelden´s victory would not have been useful. Living under Loghain´s rule is no way better than living under the archdemon´s rule.

Here I have to disagree with you most empathically. I for one don't think extermination of every living being, except for females being turned into broodmothers comes anywhere near having to endure an average paranoid dictator. not to mention the fact that even if you think Loghain is horrible, at least your children have hpes of a better future, while if the Archdemon wins your children will be Darkspawn.

Are you trying to argue that the people of who endured dictatorships like those of Stalin and Hitler should might just as well all died all of them, with no regard for future genereations? However horrible a dictatorship might have been, the will to live, and most profoundly in the way it is manifested in the will to let your children live, is stronger than the wish for annihilation almost for everyone. I really hope your remark was an ill thought thing to be a bit provocative, as I can't belive you had thought that through really.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 décembre 2009 - 07:33 .