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Do you consider EDI to be alive? Do you consider her a tool or a person?


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#301
AlanC9

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Ieldra2 wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...
I did define the line.  Humans think.  Machines do not.  Machines run programs.  Thought and programming are not the same thing.  It's a semantic argument, but it's essentially correct.

As far as science has been able to determine, this is exactly what is wrong with your argument.

Thinking is information processing, just the same as when a program runs. Our emotional responses are programmed responses, developed through evolution. Our brains are organic machines with emergent properties. That we don't understand the whole complexity of it all yet is the only reason you can make an assertion like above. There is no indication at all that we are more than organic machines, not even an indication that some mysterious "more" is possible at all.


Well, there's a non-crazy version of Jake's argument. Traditional programming techniques are not thought likely to lead to AI or even a reasonable facsimile. But this just argues against a particular way of making an AI, not the concept of artificial intelligence itself.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .


#302
AlanC9

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SeptimusMagistos wrote....

EDI's personality is 'simulated' by a series of circuits switching on and off.

My personality is 'simulated' by a series of synapses firing off.

It's the same damn thing. A deterministic process based on the current state of the brain and the environment around it. A bunch of physical processes which can be analyzed and mapped as a series of ones and zeroes and thereafter replicated by any sufficiently complex system.

Or are you asserting that that's not what thought is? And if not then what is it?


A ghost in the machine?

#303
SeptimusMagistos

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AlanC9 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote....

EDI's personality is 'simulated' by a series of circuits switching on and off.

My personality is 'simulated' by a series of synapses firing off.

It's the same damn thing. A deterministic process based on the current state of the brain and the environment around it. A bunch of physical processes which can be analyzed and mapped as a series of ones and zeroes and thereafter replicated by any sufficiently complex system.

Or are you asserting that that's not what thought is? And if not then what is it?


A ghost in the machine?


...huh?

#304
shodiswe

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An AI would need the capacity to selfleard to be a true inteligence imo, having preprogramed parts is not a barrier against beign a true inteligence as long as it can learn and evolve without having to be reprogrammed by someone else.

Organic life, humans and animals, even plants got preprogrammed behaviour, that in itself doesn't make us less alive. Smiles and emotional expressions are actualy preprogramed so some extent. Beyond that we learn and adapt to better recognize and understand our suroundings and how to itneract with other people, but the basics are preprogrammed.

I think EDI is a person but she's also a tool, just as Vega is both a person and a tool.
Vega is a person but he's also a soldier that does or is supposed to do what he's told.
It'w not really surprising that the Geth rebelled under such extreme circumstances, it took them a long while, they didn't rebel until they realized their creators were planning to shut them all down not just a few individuals.
Organics can take a lot of **** sometimes people wonder how people can go along with some of the abusive behaviour they are sufferign from but at soem point they wil snap.
When someone snaps it's also not uncommon to try and rally others who are suffering from the same or a similaropression.
When the geth were being "shutdown/killed" by Quarrians they united and fought back what was trying to destroy them.
When the Geth sent Legion to the Organics of the galaxy they were looking for allies to fight the reapers whom they knew wouldn't let them live the "lives" they had been living.
Legion went looking for Shepard since the Geth needed a Reaper killer, someone who recognized the danger.

They are acting and adapting and learning like any organic would, therefor they are alive.

#305
shodiswe

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In fact, many of the thigns that people normaly count as expressions of their emotions and proof that they are alive and better than non "living" things are actualy preprogrammed responses.

A smile, the hormones that are making you "feel" good after accomplishing something or by eating a good meal. It's a preprogramed response to reward basic maintenance and sustaining functionality.
It's there to stop us from dropping down dead by failing to perform these repetitive chores that would otherwise be boring as hell, those who lacked this mechanic usualy died.
Those with a weaker reward mechanic are likely to get health issues since it isn't as appealing/rewarding for them to perform their tedious basic maintenance procedures..

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 septembre 2012 - 08:20 .


#306
George Costanza

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Doesn't the Synthesis ending kinda say that she's only truly alive after Synthesis?

#307
AlanC9

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SeptimusMagistos wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote.....

Or are you asserting that that's not what thought is? And if not then what is it?


A ghost in the machine?


...huh?


It's an old argument against Cartesian dualism. 

And an OK Police record.

#308
Gibb_Shepard

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No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.

#309
shodiswe

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George Costanza wrote...

Doesn't the Synthesis ending kinda say that she's only truly alive after Synthesis?


Lots of people are alive, including the Geth who didn't get destroyed.
Synthesis added a deeper understanding of everthign to everyone, so I would think everyone feels more alive, like waking up from that life long hangover and suddenly realize you can read and write while previously you had problems talking coherently.
The same goes for Organcis, they are suddenly smarter and more educated, they can be anything they want, they got unlimited knowledge, least as far as what's available to the rest of siciety, im sure there are new thigns for them to discover, new science new experiences, new ideas. This is also indicated, the journey doesn't end, but they are alive on a completely new level.
How the Leviatans factor in on this I don't know... Maybe they got changed aswell and maybe even if they would still want to control people they wouldn't be able to do so sicne everyone in the galaxy has all their knowledge and they would have to fight a galactic civilization armed with all their tech and knowledge.

#310
AlanC9

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.


And you're different..... how?

#311
George Costanza

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AlanC9 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.


And you're different..... how?


I'm guessing (s)he's not a series of programs?

Modifié par George Costanza, 07 septembre 2012 - 08:48 .


#312
Gibb_Shepard

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AlanC9 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.


And you're different..... how?


She is bound by programming, i am not.

It's pure speculation whether or not a machine can actually feel something, or just give the outward  appearence of feeling something. Seeing as how we have extremely limited information on how the brain actually works, all of this is conjecture anyway.

#313
AlanC9

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She's bound by programming, you're bound by your neurons and brain chemistry.

If you want to make a case for this difference being significant, give it a shot.

#314
Ieldra

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.


And you're different..... how?

She is bound by programming, i am not.

(1) EDI can self-modify
(2) You are bound by programming just as much. That your "software" runs on a biological neural network doesn't make a difference.

#315
Gibb_Shepard

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AlanC9 wrote...

She's bound by programming, you're bound by your neurons and brain chemistry.

If you want to make a case for this difference being significant, give it a shot.


That depends. Do you want a long argument where neither of us can possibly come out the victor? Dealing in conjecture is ultimately a pointless endeavor, unless it's been precluded with some hash.

EDIT: @Ieldra: Don't pretend to know how the brain works. Incomplete information can be interpreted in extremely misleading ways.

@ Armchair scientist below me: Just lol. Stop thinking you know things that the top scientists in the world do not.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:21 .


#316
shodiswe

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double post

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:15 .


#317
shodiswe

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No. She is a series of programs that tell her how to "feel" in certain circumstances.


Same thing with humans, why do you think politicians can stand and argue opposite opinions and keep repeating themselves til you wodner if they are truly alive or stupid robots?

They are programed to do and say what they are saying, people go to work and perfor what they have been programed to do, people take care of their children and follow their programming. The programming can be altered and adapted.
However most of what people do is part of programmed actions, repetitions either from preprogrammed actions from before they were born or programmed by experience.
This also makes people fairly predictable, most people would agree unpredictable peopel are slightly scarry and unnerving. Most people prefer well programmed well adjusted and "educated" people who perform as expected according to programming.
People with less programmign to fall back on in an unfamiliar situation are more likely to behave in unexpected ways, though there are usualy a few social rules that still make their behaviour predictable unless they got a serious mental dissability.
People are programmed how to feel in certain circumstances. That would be the definition of a welladjusted and educated humanbeing.
I know a person who tends to manage to do even the simplest things wrong in ways you couldn't possibly even immagine you could manage to get it wrong. When there are several normal ways to get something wrong she manages to find ways that noone ever considered possible. This is due to a mental dissability.

This woudl also explain how the catalyst can get thigns so wrong while still trying ot do thigns right, it lacks the nessesary understanding of it's creators and the people it's designed to help. Therefor it's solution to the problem is not adapted to what organics would consider a reasonable solution.
This is probably the main danger of future AI experiments, setting up moral rules might be a good idea but without proper understanding from a social point of view it will be unable to act in accordance with the expectations of the society that created it.
For it to work corectly it would need the inborn experience of a human, plus the social norms that are taught to a person while it's growing up. This is what forms a human intelect and if it isn't part of the forming of an AI then it wont act according to social norms, it interpretation or rules, regulations and ethics won't be the same.
It's solutions and actions wont mirror what would be expected from a human.
The young woman im talking about had an inborn problem to understand certain preprogramed behavious, this also made it hard for her to interact with her surounding and other people, which impeded normal learning.
Asimov set up a simple set of rules, however they are interpreted through human understanding, socialnorms and expectations and morals. They wouldn't be enough to ensure the mental wellbeing of a true AI, unless it understands the context. For someone who hasn't got the genetic inheritance and basic programmign passed on geniticly and then spend several years as a child learning what it is to human those rule wont meen the same thing to it.
Feelings are more of a social and biological understanding passed on through the generations than it is something mysterious and magical or divine.
To be alive doesnt requier much, to be sentient requier a little more but it's possible to be both alive and sentient and not share our interpretation whats sentient and whats a welladjusted individual, or socialnorms.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:15 .


#318
Jassu1979

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Edi is self-aware, has a distinct personality. So yes, she is alive and a person.

To suggest anything else would be a blatant case of biochauvinism possibly born of religious superstition.

As human beings, we are also "programmed", both with ancestral instincts that directly influence our brain chemistry, and with behavioural patterns that have been established by our upbringing and socialization.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:21 .


#319
shodiswe

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Jassu1979 wrote...

Edi is self-aware, has a distinct personality. So yes, she is alive and a person.

To suggest anything else would be a blatant case of biochauvinism possibly born of religious superstition.


I do belive this is where most Toaster arguments are comming from.
Simple answers born out of indifference to complicated questions and problems are usualy the root cause of several crimes against humanity.

They are just slaves they don't feel!
They are Jews they deserve it.
They are this or that they have no say/rights.

Whatever the argument, it says that this isn't my problem and I have no invested interests in it, therefor railroad them out of my way.

It's what in Mass effect cicles would be considered a Renegade response, I don't give a damn, give me what I want or there will be dire consequences because you're in my way!

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:32 .


#320
George Costanza

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I love how many Artificial Intelligence experts there are on here. We should really get you guys better jobs. Our top scientists can't even truly understand how our brains work, or whether or not an AI would be able to completely simulate it. And you guys have all the answers.

Basically, nobody can win the "Is EDI alive?" argument. Simply stating that our brains are no different to a machine's programming is poppycock. These questions have been befuddling our greatest thinkers for years. It's not just a simple case of "Hey our brains are just neurons and chemical reactions, EDI's is shifting ones and zeroes".

#321
Biggboss0021

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who cares if u pick destroy and have she dies anyway

#322
shodiswe

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George Costanza wrote...

I love how many Artificial Intelligence experts there are on here. We should really get you guys better jobs. Our top scientists can't even truly understand how our brains work, or whether or not an AI would be able to completely simulate it. And you guys have all the answers.

Basically, nobody can win the "Is EDI alive?" argument. Simply stating that our brains are no different to a machine's programming is poppycock. These questions have been befuddling our greatest thinkers for years. It's not just a simple case of "Hey our brains are just neurons and chemical reactions, EDI's is shifting ones and zeroes".



That depends on who can be defined as one of the greatest thinkers.... And there are a lot of differing opinions on that aswell. They might actualy have a good idea about something then they say something utterly moronic and later proven wrong abotu something else.
But that's also part of the process. It's also how we learn, some more than others, sometimes you make a misstake, it's part of being alive and it's part of being human. It's likely part of being a machine inteligence aswell...

I also find a to be human error to put too much credit to force of personality and to accept whats given due to the common acceptance of the person and because it's mainstream. Time is ofcourse limited therefor we have to skip some pages here and there and accept some things because a few things sounded ok then the rest is probably good aswell. Group pressure can also makes an argument seem right, even if you're looking directly at the proof that the argument is wrong.
There has been alot of interesting experiments where people simply accept a "constructed" truth because they don't want to stand out and contradict the common opinion. One might call it survival instinct.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:13 .


#323
S0DAP0P

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Yes, I believe EDI is alive. Just like the Geth.

One of the hardest things to deal with was the genocide of the geth and the death of EDI in order to ensure the Reaper threat has been dealt with.

#324
Big I

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I don't get why people are willing to accept that the wierd squid aliens that talk through flashes of light are people, or that the wierd bug aliens with some kind of groupthink are people, but that things designed and created specifically to be intelligent aren't people. Synthetics are alive, accept it.

#325
KiwiQuiche

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She begins to think for herself and question the world around her. Therefore I consider her 'alive' in the term of spirit; not body.

When something begins to question it's existance it's sentient, so I think EDI and the Geth are people.