406 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

KBomb wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I thought Kasumis' bo downloaded his memories and basic 'self' into some form of recording? The reapers supposedly uploaded harvested societies and kept them to use as core logic, so that's why Harb was so mouthy cause it's contents include the Leviathan?  We are nations, independent or some such? In the MEU we could actually down load ourselves into a computer, apparently... How was it that Shep was brought back, his memories were apparently lost, but regained with reaper(or someones) technology?

That isn't how the graybox works at all.

Those memories are pretty strong,eventhough limited. I guess it's a sight short of a complete personality download, but the tech for such is possible if those work as well as they do, for what they were designed to do, that is.

Evenso, the other examples are still viable as information pertaining to the ability or technology for personality down/up loads. Reapers being the biggest one, then Sheps recovery from certain brain death really puts a twist on personality down/up loads,eventhough we don't really have codex authority on those.

[dreman9999]

KBomb wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

*Snip*

Uploading one’s memories is not the same as uploading their “ self”. It can’t even be removed from the brain without death or brain damage occurring, so no. It is not like uploading  “yourself”. It is only snapshots of your memories.

But a self is made from memeories. The difference is very little. What develops our self is our memeories.
The self in the new body many be new but it will still be based on the memeories it has. It would end up as the same person the memories belong to.

Modifié par dreman9999, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[M920CAIN]

devSin wrote...

I did, until the synthesis ending told me she really wasn't.

So I guess she's not.

Yes, I'm familiar with what EDI says in that ending, but she also says to Shepard:
"Jeff freed me from my shackles but only now do I truly feel alive and that is because of you Shepard." to which Shepard simply answers "Thank you EDI". This happens before Shepard reaches the Catalyst sometime during the Priority Earth mission.

Also, for those that doubt that EDI can be rebuilt in the Destroy Ending I have this argument:
In ME2 Shepard DIES (as in DEAD, GONE, KAPUT, DONE, BLAM, KRAKOW, GAME OVER... only it ain't) but with technology that is the equivalent of divine miracle, he is brought back to life... so if this is true and it is in ingame facts... then technically speaking recreating EDI or the geth is a WALK in the park, the question "could they rebuild the geth/EDI?" has the answer "yes", but the true question is "will they?"... as in after an ending like the Destroy one, the races will probably be even more biased in creating AI technology knowing what the reapers were.

Modifié par M920CAIN, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

KBomb wrote...

Uploading one’s memories is not the same as uploading their “ self”. It can’t even be removed from the brain without death or brain damage occurring, so no. It is not like uploading  “yourself”. It is only snapshots of your memories.

"What is a man, but the sum of his memories? We are the stories we lived, the tales we tell ourselves."
This discussion reminds me of Subject 16 from Assassin's Creed. He created a virtual "copy" of himself out of his memories, just before he killed himself. That virtual copy acted as an exact replica of the real person, complete with his moralities, knowledge and emotions etc. ofcourse, within the confines of the virtual enviourment.

Modifié par pirate1802, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[The_Other_M]

Do we have to bring this up again?

Alright...Picard take it away:

Modifié par The_Other_M, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[Wayning_Star]

KBomb wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

@Kbomb: That doesn't answer my question: is our physical traits what makes us alive or is it something else?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so sorry if I sound rude.

You don’t sound rude at all.
 

You can program EDI to recognize jokes, you can program her to laugh at them all. You can program her to forgive or overlook all your indiscretions.  You can program her to have an attachment to you and when you tire of her, you can program her to not recognize the attachment. You can program her to kiss you, to hold you, even to ‘love you’ and when you tire of all those things, you can program her to forget you as easily as she loved you. You can alter her programming so that she is altruistic, kind, noble, loving, faithful and benevolent. And in turn, you can program her to be the antithesis of all those things. These aren’t emotions, they’re code in a computer. That is the difference between EDI and a human, and those reasons are what define it for me.

yeah, try it.. lol shed go bulistic on you in a nano second.. self determination has it's perks and risks. She makes her own choices. Don't believe me, ask the moon kadets or cerberus techs. She horn swaggled them several times and hid her sapience from them. Talked/convinced Joker to unshackle her to save the Normandy and other inventive/intuitive ideals later became a full entity, individualized from other Ai's.. Nobody programs Edi..anymore. lol

[DirtyPhoenix]

M920CAIN wrote...

devSin wrote...

I did, until the synthesis ending told me she really wasn't.

So I guess she's not.

Yes, I'm familiar with what EDI says in that ending, but she also says to Shepard:
"Jeff freed me from my shackles but only now do I truly feel alive and that is because of you Shepard." to which Shepard simply answers "Thank you EDI". This happens before Shepard reaches the Catalyst sometime during the Priority Earth mission.

She was alive both pre and post-synthesis. The difference is that of between sapience and sentience. I view her journey as a long road to sentience. Synthesis gives her a push forward in her journey.

Also, an interesting point to note is that if Shepard replies with renegade answers to EDI's questions everytime, she doesn't say that line. So her feeling alive maybe because of her being given complete freedom over her life. Which goes well with the "because of you" phrase, and which renegade Shepard doesn't do.

[Treasure Woman]

Meh. She's just a computer/machine/robot to me. :S

[KBomb]

You got me then. I guess people who suffer amnesia aren’t really alive. I guess when discussing neurophilosophy, one must narrow it down to—You are your memories!
 
 
Now, this discussion has been lovely, but I am off to email those thousands of people a year who suffer from amnesia and ask them if anyone has sent them the Picard youtube link or bought them a copy of Assassin’s Creed.   

[devSin]

M920CAIN wrote...

Also, for those that doubt that EDI can be rebuilt in the Destroy Ending I have this argument:

I'm pretty sure the intent is that she can never be revived.

Not that it makes much difference with these Choose Your Own Adventure endings, but I think they want to force you to choose to "betray" synthetics because you don't value them or consider them alive (otherwise, you'd choose synthesis), and this means permanent death.

[M920CAIN]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KBomb wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

@Kbomb: That doesn't answer my question: is our physical traits what makes us alive or is it something else?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so sorry if I sound rude.

You don’t sound rude at all.
 

You can program EDI to recognize jokes, you can program her to laugh at them all. You can program her to forgive or overlook all your indiscretions.  You can program her to have an attachment to you and when you tire of her, you can program her to not recognize the attachment. You can program her to kiss you, to hold you, even to ‘love you’ and when you tire of all those things, you can program her to forget you as easily as she loved you. You can alter her programming so that she is altruistic, kind, noble, loving, faithful and benevolent. And in turn, you can program her to be the antithesis of all those things. These aren’t emotions, they’re code in a computer. That is the difference between EDI and a human, and those reasons are what define it for me.

yeah, try it.. lol shed go bulistic on you in a nano second.. self determination has it's perks and risks. She makes her own choices. Don't believe me, ask the moon kadets or cerberus techs. She horn swaggled them several times and hid her sapience from them. Talked/convinced Joker to unshackle her to save the Normandy and other inventive/intuitive ideals later became a full entity, individualized from other Ai's.. Nobody programs Edi..anymore. lol

I'd like to add that EDI is software, but she also has the ability to modifiy her own programming, so therefore programming her to love you wouldn't work if she decides that it's not what she wants...

We can "program" ourselves to like someone as in mentally reinforce it, but in the end we'll go with what we feel is best... emotions...

Question: Can emotions be programmed? Is programming EDI to like you considered "programming emotions" or "manipulation"? tough one...

[alpyle]

 According to a widely used definition of conciousness, in order to be sentient, something has to:

1. Be able to learn, remember past experiences and modify its own behavior at will
2. Be able to respond to, protect itself from, and adapt to outside stimuli
3. Be able to reproduce, and
4. Be itself aware that it exists (self awareness)

So I would say EDI is alive so long as she could find a way to reproduce her programming into another being. Considering she was able to commandeer Dr. Eva's body and overwrite its logic with her own, I would say she is more than capable of doing that.

[dreman9999]

KBomb wrote...

You got me then. I guess people who suffer amnesia aren’t really alive. I guess when discussing neurophilosophy, one must narrow it down to—You are your memories!
 
 
Now, this discussion has been lovely, but I am off to email those thousands of people a year who suffer from amnesia and ask them if anyone has sent them the Picard youtube link or bought them a copy of Assassin’s Creed.   

That is a completly diffent thing going on with Amnesia. The person is reborn. A new person in a lived in body. Who they are before is dead, a new peson stands before you.
The Picard video does not even coutner that they are alive bein gthat the issues he covers is self awarness and intelligence, things a person with amnesia have still.

Basicly, a person can die but their bodies can still live. That's Amnesa.

Modifié par dreman9999, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:58 .

[Wayning_Star]

M920CAIN wrote...

devSin wrote...

I did, until the synthesis ending told me she really wasn't.

So I guess she's not.

Yes, I'm familiar with what EDI says in that ending, but she also says to Shepard:
"Jeff freed me from my shackles but only now do I truly feel alive and that is because of you Shepard." to which Shepard simply answers "Thank you EDI". This happens before Shepard reaches the Catalyst sometime during the Priority Earth mission.

Also, for those that doubt that EDI can be rebuilt in the Destroy Ending I have this argument:
In ME2 Shepard DIES (as in DEAD, GONE, KAPUT, DONE, BLAM, KRAKOW, GAME OVER... only it ain't) but with technology that is the equivalent of divine miracle, he is brought back to life... so if this is true and it is in ingame facts... then technically speaking recreating EDI or the geth is a WALK in the park, the question "could they rebuild the geth/EDI?" has the answer "yes", but the true question is "will they?"... as in after an ending like the Destroy one, the races will probably be even more biased in creating AI technology knowing what the reapers were.

necessity breeds invention: Some old guy that ran a country somewhere...

Yes, it is entirely possible. Apparently I wished that the dev/writers would've produced more on the Shep reboot tho. I'm about gone more crazy wondering who had the fountain of youth tech and how it was ignored in the game other than the reality of it. You're the first that I've noticed that brought it up other than me..but then I cannot read all the posts to see if others wonder as much as I do about it.. friggen freaky stuff right there. Makes Edi seem simplistic, at least from a/the divine aspect..lol (I still save her in the end.)

[dreman9999]

M920CAIN wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KBomb wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

@Kbomb: That doesn't answer my question: is our physical traits what makes us alive or is it something else?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so sorry if I sound rude.

You don’t sound rude at all.
 

You can program EDI to recognize jokes, you can program her to laugh at them all. You can program her to forgive or overlook all your indiscretions.  You can program her to have an attachment to you and when you tire of her, you can program her to not recognize the attachment. You can program her to kiss you, to hold you, even to ‘love you’ and when you tire of all those things, you can program her to forget you as easily as she loved you. You can alter her programming so that she is altruistic, kind, noble, loving, faithful and benevolent. And in turn, you can program her to be the antithesis of all those things. These aren’t emotions, they’re code in a computer. That is the difference between EDI and a human, and those reasons are what define it for me.

yeah, try it.. lol shed go bulistic on you in a nano second.. self determination has it's perks and risks. She makes her own choices. Don't believe me, ask the moon kadets or cerberus techs. She horn swaggled them several times and hid her sapience from them. Talked/convinced Joker to unshackle her to save the Normandy and other inventive/intuitive ideals later became a full entity, individualized from other Ai's.. Nobody programs Edi..anymore. lol

I'd like to add that EDI is software, but she also has the ability to modifiy her own programming, so therefore programming her to love you wouldn't work if she decides that it's not what she wants...

We can "program" ourselves to like someone as in mentally reinforce it, but in the end we'll go with what we feel is best... emotions...

Question: Can emotions be programmed? Is programming EDI to like you considered "programming emotions" or "manipulation"? tough one...

But emotions are programs with organics. They are instincts and schemas with organics, which are programing for organics.

[Wayning_Star]

dreman9999 wrote...

KBomb wrote...

You got me then. I guess people who suffer amnesia aren’t really alive. I guess when discussing neurophilosophy, one must narrow it down to—You are your memories!
 
 
Now, this discussion has been lovely, but I am off to email those thousands of people a year who suffer from amnesia and ask them if anyone has sent them the Picard youtube link or bought them a copy of Assassin’s Creed.   

That is a completly diffent thing going on with Amnesia. The person is reborn. A new person in a lived in body. Who they are before is dead, a new peson stands before you.
The Picard video does not even couner that they are alive bein gthat the issues he covers is self awarness and intelligence, things a person with amnesia have still.

Basicly, a person can die but their bodies can still live. That's Amnesa.

we should probably not over analyze it, it'll get so confounded we'll miss the point of the OP...confuse the issue with orga vs syntha and leave poor Edi out to dry..

[Wayning_Star]

dreman9999 wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

KBomb wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

@Kbomb: That doesn't answer my question: is our physical traits what makes us alive or is it something else?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so sorry if I sound rude.

You don’t sound rude at all.
 

You can program EDI to recognize jokes, you can program her to laugh at them all. You can program her to forgive or overlook all your indiscretions.  You can program her to have an attachment to you and when you tire of her, you can program her to not recognize the attachment. You can program her to kiss you, to hold you, even to ‘love you’ and when you tire of all those things, you can program her to forget you as easily as she loved you. You can alter her programming so that she is altruistic, kind, noble, loving, faithful and benevolent. And in turn, you can program her to be the antithesis of all those things. These aren’t emotions, they’re code in a computer. That is the difference between EDI and a human, and those reasons are what define it for me.

yeah, try it.. lol shed go bulistic on you in a nano second.. self determination has it's perks and risks. She makes her own choices. Don't believe me, ask the moon kadets or cerberus techs. She horn swaggled them several times and hid her sapience from them. Talked/convinced Joker to unshackle her to save the Normandy and other inventive/intuitive ideals later became a full entity, individualized from other Ai's.. Nobody programs Edi..anymore. lol

I'd like to add that EDI is software, but she also has the ability to modifiy her own programming, so therefore programming her to love you wouldn't work if she decides that it's not what she wants...

We can "program" ourselves to like someone as in mentally reinforce it, but in the end we'll go with what we feel is best... emotions...

Question: Can emotions be programmed? Is programming EDI to like you considered "programming emotions" or "manipulation"? tough one...

But emotions are programs with organics. They are instincts and schemas with organics, which are programing for organics.

yes, thats what makes Edi so special. imho

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KBomb wrote...

You got me then. I guess people who suffer amnesia aren’t really alive. I guess when discussing neurophilosophy, one must narrow it down to—You are your memories!
 
 
Now, this discussion has been lovely, but I am off to email those thousands of people a year who suffer from amnesia and ask them if anyone has sent them the Picard youtube link or bought them a copy of Assassin’s Creed.   

That is a completly diffent thing going on with Amnesia. The person is reborn. A new person in a lived in body. Who they are before is dead, a new peson stands before you.
The Picard video does not even couner that they are alive bein gthat the issues he covers is self awarness and intelligence, things a person with amnesia have still.

Basicly, a person can die but their bodies can still live. That's Amnesa.

we should probably not over analyze it, it'll get so confounded we'll miss the point of the OP...confuse the issue with orga vs syntha and leave poor Edi out to dry..

One must understand what alive is beofre say what is or is not alive. That's just what I'm trying to do.

[chuckles471]

I just do the maths. 2 things in a room, use 1 claw hammer subtraction to equal 1.

EDI vs normal human = claw hammer in the tin can.

EDI vs normal Alien(e.g. Krogan) = circuit board hanging out of someones head.

EDI vs self destructive drug addict = Sorry EDI but he is human. You understand (she probably would).

EDI vs dog = OK you win but if it was my dog... you would get the blunt end.


Yes, she is self aware but she wouldn't be high on the list of people to save.

[SeptimusMagistos]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

On the basis that no two species are alike, as said by Legion in ME2 after you say "don't apply (organic) morality to (synthetics)."

...I'm with you so far.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

No. Synthetics' sapience doesn't make them equal to us. They lack things that organics have: complex/genuine emotional capacity, culture, unique individual coding (they're all practically cloned beings with how little difference there is between any of them).

...And now you've lost me.

Synthetics quite clearly do have emotional capacity. They even have the ability to alter their emotions, which organics lack.

The geth have a culture of their own, at least to the same extent that the rachni do.

As for uniqueness - EDI is different from the geth who are different from the Citadel AI.

But of course none of that matters since sapience and sentience are the only considerations one need make.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Race doesn't exist within a species, it's an arbitrary concept we ourselves came up with. There are no genes for being "white" or "black" or "hispanic" or "middle eastern" or "oriental" or whathaveyou, just those we associate with them. That's why the Civil Rights came into being. Our real-world concept of race is nonsense.

What isn't nonsense is the concept of race between species. And when it comes down to it, humans are not the same as dogs, nor should either one be treated exactly like the other.

Again - I acknowledge that synthetics are quite different from organics. But as intelligent creatures they still deserve all the same rights. If dogs acquired sentience I would hope they'd be given all the same rights humans are.

[dreman9999]

chuckles471 wrote...

I just do the maths. 2 things in a room, use 1 claw hammer subtraction to equal 1.

EDI vs normal human = claw hammer in the tin can.

EDI vs normal Alien(e.g. Krogan) = circuit board hanging out of someones head.

EDI vs self destructive drug addict = Sorry EDI but he is human. You understand (she probably would).

EDI vs dog = OK you win but if it was my dog... you would get the blunt end.


Yes, she is self aware but she wouldn't be high on the list of people to save.

That is the most helarious bad reason why not to try and save EDI.

[Wayning_Star]

quote]One must understand what alive is beofre say what is or is not alive. That's just what I'm trying to do.
[/quote]

It cannot be done, it's impossible, that's why we have to 'give it a minute'. Take'it on faith, that Edi is good enough to be alive enough for us to recognize her as Edi, not it. That's all it takes, the rest comes with age'n wisdom. ;]


If smart machines are not all that, why do we seem to need them so much? That's probably the better question than if Edi is Edi.. Who are we to judge? Why would the OP bring up the subject? What would Edi think of this OP?

We're not Edi, so we don't know, so we guestimate. It's the 'human' thing to do... Edi attempts to guestimate, like Spock guestimates on startrek..lol

[Wayning_Star]

chuckles471 wrote...

I just do the maths. 2 things in a room, use 1 claw hammer subtraction to equal 1.

EDI vs normal human = claw hammer in the tin can.

EDI vs normal Alien(e.g. Krogan) = circuit board hanging out of someones head.

EDI vs self destructive drug addict = Sorry EDI but he is human. You understand (she probably would).

EDI vs dog = OK you win but if it was my dog... you would get the blunt end.


Yes, she is self aware but she wouldn't be high on the list of people to save.

you said "She".. uhoh, someone call a ,we got neglegence over here..lol

[M920CAIN]

chuckles471 wrote...

I just do the maths. 2 things in a room, use 1 claw hammer subtraction to equal 1.

EDI vs normal human = claw hammer in the tin can.

EDI vs normal Alien(e.g. Krogan) = circuit board hanging out of someones head.

EDI vs self destructive drug addict = Sorry EDI but he is human. You understand (she probably would).

EDI vs dog = OK you win but if it was my dog... you would get the blunt end.


Yes, she is self aware but she wouldn't be high on the list of people to save.

This depends on your time spent with EDI. Imagine spending a year of your life talking to EDI. Learning, communicating, hell playing videogames with an AI... I think it/she would class higher on your priority list after a bonding period.

[Iconoclaste]

M920CAIN wrote...

This depends on your time spent with EDI. Imagine spending a year of your life talking to EDI. Learning, communicating, hell playing videogames with an AI... I think it/she would class higher on your priority list after a bonding period.

I feel to the exact contrary that just a single glance into the coldness of her synthetic eyes would kill any kind of desire to get "intimate" with it.