219 réponses à ce sujet

[Zardoc]

Fredvdp wrote...

Xellith wrote...

If the rachni queen is anything to go by - humans and other organics can be re-created also.  Your argument is invalid.

It wasn't a real queen and it didn't function the same. Unlike the real queen, it did not have control.

His point still stands.

[m2iCodeJockey]

theillusiveman11 wrote...
I don't see why people make a big deal over the Destroy ending wiping out synthetics. Any synthetic can be replaced, there's nothing unique about any of them.

Yeulia wrote...
this could go on for hours/days/years/etc. when there is no operational definition for the words "individual", "person", things like that. everyone has their own interpretation so obviously everything becomes subjective without properly defining it.

If a person has an identical sibling or two or more, they all have the same DNA so, what part of their being is unique? A person's mind is the only part that is unique.

So, while an organic individual exists as physical first and the physicality generates the conscious, the cybernetic being exists as information first and the information instructs the physicality on the construction of more information within the cybernetic mind and each of those minds is a record of experiences, just like an organic's mind, making each irreplaceable.

About 10 years ago, someone wrote: "'I think therefore, I am' does not prove I exist. It only proves my mind exists."
They are correct.

We CAN'T prove we exist and the probability that we do not exist is not 0.
Organic beings and cybernetic beings are equal in their significance or the lack thereof.

[inversevideo]

EDI already told me she would risk non-functionality for Jeff. EDI never calls it dying, neither do the Geth. Dying may be a foreign concept to AI particularly the Geth. They shut themselves down all the time.

None of which would alter my choice. I believe the Geth and EDI are acceptable collateral damage, if it means stopping the war and ridding the galaxy of the Reapers. I find it to be the best crap choice, out of all the crap choices available to me.

Modifié par inversevideo, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[D24O]

Did this troll thread really last 4 days? 7/10 for longevity OP, but needs moar dinosaurs.

[m2iCodeJockey]

D24O wrote...
Did this troll thread really last 4 days? 7/10 for longevity OP, but needs moar dinosaurs.

I don't mind, on this topic. What's actually being discussed is civil rights as related to a series of species that are not yet known to humanity and... What's that near the office door?...

Philosoraptor!!! AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[D24O]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

I don't mind, on this topic. What's actually being discussed is civil rights as related to a series of species that are not yet known to humanity and... What's that near the office door?...

Philosoraptor!!! AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Well played. Continue on. 

[markshaxted]

I do not know if someone else has spoken along these lines, but I would relate this to the arguments for and against abortion. The bottom line comes down to when do you consider life to have started. With abortion you have the extremes of life beginning at conception vs the latest time it is still safe for the woman in question to abort based on the development of the foetus and some may even argue life does not begin until birth (please disregard any religious beliefs about abortion here, though religious reasons may be why you believe life begins at any given point... I also am not expressing my views, just an overview of the opinions I believe are out there).

With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted. In the case of the Geth you could argue from the moment they were built or switched on all the way through to the moment they gained the lates code that allowed them to really make their own decisions and go beyond their original programming, much the same way unshackling EDI did with how she can no learn and develop on her own terms by adjusting her core programming... Much the same way we learn and make changes.

So this comes down to when you consider life to have begun, as all life should be considered equally as valuable. As for the OP, you must not consider synthetic life to be alive with regards to the ME universe and that at some point in the future it could be considered a racist view to hold this opinion. I would say this is one of the areas ME engages in quite well... From how the Quarians first views led them to try and destroy the Geth to how Shepard made peace is about considering the Geth first as just machines to finally viewing them as life forms.

[markshaxted]

Sorry, double post.

Please noet though the above comments are not meant to spark any arguments, nor do they necessarily express my own opinions, but it is merely meant to demonstrate the different ways we view life and one area in which illustrates this in our current culture.

I apologise in advance if anyone takes any offence to the topics raised.

Modifié par markshaxted, 09 septembre 2012 - 03:48 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

[markshaxted]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

I think the reason I have this view with regards to the Geth is because of the way uploading the Reaper code changed them. When we see the Reaper code it seems it is supposed to look more like the workings of a brain and the way it is described just comes across as changing them in a way that finally makes their minds very similar to an organic mind and takes them far beyond their initial programming.

But as the story portrays there are some that always viewed the Geth's lives as precious as their own, for others it has taken longer take that view, and simply because of the way the story portrays the development of the Geth's code throughout there could be an argument made for life beginning for the Geth with the most recent code.

But you are very right, you simply cannot say a Geth's life has begun once a hardware unit has been made, but I assume what you are saying is that they were alive the moment their AI was turned on?

[m2iCodeJockey]

markshaxted wrote...
...but I assume what you are saying is that they were alive the moment their AI was turned on?

Yes. Just at self awareness.
Thinking about the topic, I realized a few things. Among them:
- The term "living" is, in and of itself, speciesist.
- "Artificial" and "synthetic" are, too (mentioned in codex as such.)
- Forceful code injection is a form of rape for a cybernetic (so, if the Normandy takes on a Geth ship or the like, EDI's job is to...?)
- In less than 50 years, someone is going to try to marry a cybernetic (already happened, actually.)

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[Subject M]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

Modifié par Subject M, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[ld1449]

What OP? You think 'you' can't be replaced.

Sad truth is, you can be. You die, somewhere along the road someone else was born. Voila, replaced. They just made "a new one"

Same **** different shirt

[Red Panda]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

darkchief10 wrote...

same thing can be said for humans, albeit we are organic machines, we're not so special

Humans have their own personalities, and their own set of skills. 

Machines can only do what they were made to do.

Legion and EDI have their own personalities, and their own set of skills.

They change and adapt from ME2 to ME3.

They act more human than Shepard at the very least.

Therefore, if Shepard is human, then they are human and should be valued as such.

Also, shouldn't the OP say that control is the means to survival?

[SeptimusMagistos]

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

It's not explained, but it can be explored. Mostly your Shepard gets to make up their own mind on whether to treat them like machines or like people. Early on in ME1 there's an opportunity to inform Tali that her people were attempting genocide. This is before you met any geth that weren't actively shooting at you - just from hearing that they had reached self-awareness you can judge them to be people and quarians to have been wrong for trying to kill them.

It was a refreshing stance to be able to take.

[Trikormadenadon]

darkchief10 wrote...

same thing can be said for humans, albeit we are organic machines, we're not so special

But there was no option to kill all humans to save the galaxy so your point is irrelevant.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

The codex states the [speculated population] of Rannoch. In it, the number of platforms (bodies) differs from the number of runtimes (minds.)
In ME2, when speaking enough to Legion, it tells you there are 1000+ runtimes within it which reach consensus to make decisions. Legion also the nature of Geth shared knowlege to add to Tali's explaination of shared intellect.

So, their lack of individuality is more by culture than restriction. As described by Legion, they have a culture of knowledge distribution.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Subject M]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

It's not explained, but it can be explored. Mostly your Shepard gets to make up their own mind on whether to treat them like machines or like people. Early on in ME1 there's an opportunity to inform Tali that her people were attempting genocide. This is before you met any geth that weren't actively shooting at you - just from hearing that they had reached self-awareness you can judge them to be people and quarians to have been wrong for trying to kill them.

It was a refreshing stance to be able to take.

Indeed, but since you can not know if they reached self awareness or not, there seems to be a problem.
This problem seems to have been solved in the ME universe, thus synthetic constructs are classified into VI and AI. The question is, if the Geth lack a quantum blue box, what is to say they are not just VI. If they are not just an extremely advanced adoptive VI but still lack a blue box, then they might be something else entirely.

Modifié par Subject M, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Subject M]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

The codex states the [speculated population] of Rannoch. In it, the number of platforms (bodies) differs from the number of runtimes (minds.)
In ME2, when speaking enough to Legion, it tells you there are 1000+ runtimes within it which reach consensus to make decisions.

So, their lack of individuality is more by culture than restriction. As described by Legion, they have a culture of knowledge distribution.

I was under the impression that the Geth was one mind (at the size of a galactic arm to quote EDI) .On the other hand such a mind would probably not have any trouble in partitioning itself, but at the cost of loosing some of its superintelligence and coherence.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Subject M wrote...
I was under the impression that the Geth was one mind (at the size of a galactic arm to quote EDI) .On the other hand such a mind would probably not have any trouble in partitioning itself, but at the cost of loosing some of its superintelligence and coherence.

There is no guarantee there is a connection for any platform to the rest of the network.
The existence of hidden Geth info in ME2 means they share by choice.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Subject M wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

It's not explained, but it can be explored. Mostly your Shepard gets to make up their own mind on whether to treat them like machines or like people. Early on in ME1 there's an opportunity to inform Tali that her people were attempting genocide. This is before you met any geth that weren't actively shooting at you - just from hearing that they had reached self-awareness you can judge them to be people and quarians to have been wrong for trying to kill them.

It was a refreshing stance to be able to take.

Indeed, but since you can not know if they reached self awareness or not, there seems to be a problem.
This problem seems to have been solved in the ME universe, thus synthetic constructs are classified into VI and AI. The question is, if the Geth lack a quantum blue box, what is to say they are not just VI. If they are not just an extremely advanced adoptive VI but still lack a blue box, then they might be something else entirely.

Meh. I go with the principle that if we're having trouble figuring out whether or not something is self-aware it's best to err on the side of caution. Besides, the quarians certainly thought the geth were self-aware when they made their decision, which is what's relevant in choosing to condemn that decision or not.

[Subject M]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Subject M wrote...
I was under the impression that the Geth was one mind (at the size of a galactic arm to quote EDI) .On the other hand such a mind would probably not have any trouble in partitioning itself, but at the cost of loosing some of its superintelligence and coherence.

There is no guarantee there is a connection for any platform to the rest of the network.
The existence of hidden Geth info in ME2 means they share by choice.

Its just that it seems they are VI units without connection to a suffiently large network, or a network with certain properties. (It would have been a nice touch if Legion had two destinct modes, being an AI when connected and a VI when not being connected).

They started as such, VI units that had a measure of being able to work autonomous, but with a programmed instruction to network to improve. This somehow lead to them to gaining self awareness.

[Subject M]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Subject M wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Subject M wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

markshaxted wrote...
...With regards to synthetic life this debate of when life begins becomes even more convoluted...

Quite the opposite. A cybernetic's origin is easily defined. A Geth, more-so because their minds are hardware independent.

Are they? You need harware to run their program no?

And its quite interesting that the true status of the Geth is never explained or explored prior to their "upgrade" making them all individuals.

It's not explained, but it can be explored. Mostly your Shepard gets to make up their own mind on whether to treat them like machines or like people. Early on in ME1 there's an opportunity to inform Tali that her people were attempting genocide. This is before you met any geth that weren't actively shooting at you - just from hearing that they had reached self-awareness you can judge them to be people and quarians to have been wrong for trying to kill them.

It was a refreshing stance to be able to take.

Indeed, but since you can not know if they reached self awareness or not, there seems to be a problem.
This problem seems to have been solved in the ME universe, thus synthetic constructs are classified into VI and AI. The question is, if the Geth lack a quantum blue box, what is to say they are not just VI. If they are not just an extremely advanced adoptive VI but still lack a blue box, then they might be something else entirely.

Meh. I go with the principle that if we're having trouble figuring out whether or not something is self-aware it's best to err on the side of caution. Besides, the quarians certainly thought the geth were self-aware when they made their decision, which is what's relevant in choosing to condemn that decision or not.

I agree, absolutly. Its way better to risk wasting kindness then risk inflicting suffering.

But it would still have been intersting to understand how the Geth work in relation to other AI and VI.

[IllusiveManJr]

OperatingWookie wrote...
Also, shouldn't the OP say that control is the means to survival?

I'm in control.