111 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Renmiri1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Did this happen in Asunder?  I don't remember reading or seeing this in DA2?  I got the impression playing the game she did it on a spur of the moment thing when she sees her out (no more Grand Cleric, and the Chantry in rubble).  And I haven't read Asunder.

No, it happens in game. Talk to Ser Karras on Act 3, right after Act 3 starts. He stays in front of the stairs in the Gallows. He will tell you that they have the Right of Annulment. And that "robes will get what they deserve"

oh...Karras doesn't often make it to the end of my games...he often has a little 'accident' while pursuing the Starkhaven mages...and I've never sought him out later on those times I let Varric sweet talk our way through that situation.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 08 septembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Did this happen in Asunder?  I don't remember reading or seeing this in DA2?  I got the impression playing the game she did it on a spur of the moment thing when she sees her out (no more Grand Cleric, and the Chantry in rubble).  And I haven't read Asunder.

No, it happens in game. Talk to Ser Karras on Act 3, right after Act 3 starts. He stays in front of the stairs in the Gallows. He will tell you that they have the Right of Annulment. And that "robes will get what they deserve"

Once again, no.  It's said that Meredith had requested the Right from Grand Cleric Elthina, who turned her down.  I think Meredith attempted to go over Elthina's head and receive authorization from the Divine, but she did NOT actually receive any such permission.  You'll notice that Meredith started out trying only to coerce Orsino into letting her investigate the Circle rooms for evidence of blood mages.  Given that by this point, we know she had requested approval to carry out Annulment and been denied, and possibly had tried to gain authorization from higher channels, it's clear that's what she WANTED to do, so she wouldn't have shown any restraint in that scene had she the official sanction to kill Orsino and all the others.  But she didn't yet have that sanction, and she DID have Elthina's express refusal, so she wasn't in a position to blatantly disregard the law at that point.  

It was Elthina's removal that made it possible for Meredith to dispense with inconvenient red tape.  Gaider himself has gone on record as pointing this out: whatever we feel about the actual circumstances, the fact is that Meredith did have the right to act on her own authority and could later claim that the situation was so extremely dangerous that she was obligated to act accordingly, since the local Grand Cleric was removed from the equation and the next available official who could legally authorize Annulment wasn't exactly within a short running distance.

It may be a minor detail, but it's an important one for the story: Meredith carried out Annulment on her own authority, specifically without waiting for legal authorization.

[LobselVith8]

Karlone123 wrote...

To break the stalemate between Mages and Templars, believing to have it all out rather then continue to live under scrutiny. If Mages were going to die anyway, better to do it with a staff in your hand than begging a Templar for mercy.

Precisely. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Renmiri1]

Silfren wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

No, it happens in game. Talk to Ser Karras on Act 3, right after Act 3 starts. He stays in front of the stairs in the Gallows. He will tell you that they have the Right of Annulment. And that "robes will get what they deserve"

Once again, no.  It's said that Meredith had requested the Right from Grand Cleric Elthina, who turned her down.  I think Meredith attempted to go over Elthina's head and receive authorization from the Divine, but she did NOT actually receive any such permission.  You'll notice that Meredith started out trying only to coerce Orsino into letting her investigate the Circle rooms for evidence of blood mages.  Given that by this point, we know she had requested approval to carry out Annulment and been denied, and possibly had tried to gain authorization from higher channels, it's clear that's what she WANTED to do, so she wouldn't have shown any restraint in that scene had she the official sanction to kill Orsino and all the others.  But she didn't yet have that sanction, and she DID have Elthina's express refusal, so she wasn't in a position to blatantly disregard the law at that point.  

It was Elthina's removal that made it possible for Meredith to dispense with inconvenient red tape.  Gaider himself has gone on record as pointing this out: whatever we feel about the actual circumstances, the fact is that Meredith did have the right to act on her own authority and could later claim that the situation was so extremely dangerous that she was obligated to act accordingly, since the local Grand Cleric was removed from the equation and the next available official who could legally authorize Annulment wasn't exactly within a short running distance.

It may be a minor detail, but it's an important one for the story: Meredith carried out Annulment on her own authority, specifically without waiting for legal authorization.

Where does it say Elthina turned her down ? Ser Karras never says that. Neither did Elthina, not on any of my 10 playthroughs

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

No, it happens in game. Talk to Ser Karras on Act 3, right after Act 3 starts. He stays in front of the stairs in the Gallows. He will tell you that they have the Right of Annulment. And that "robes will get what they deserve"

Once again, no.  It's said that Meredith had requested the Right from Grand Cleric Elthina, who turned her down.  I think Meredith attempted to go over Elthina's head and receive authorization from the Divine, but she did NOT actually receive any such permission.  You'll notice that Meredith started out trying only to coerce Orsino into letting her investigate the Circle rooms for evidence of blood mages.  Given that by this point, we know she had requested approval to carry out Annulment and been denied, and possibly had tried to gain authorization from higher channels, it's clear that's what she WANTED to do, so she wouldn't have shown any restraint in that scene had she the official sanction to kill Orsino and all the others.  But she didn't yet have that sanction, and she DID have Elthina's express refusal, so she wasn't in a position to blatantly disregard the law at that point.  

It was Elthina's removal that made it possible for Meredith to dispense with inconvenient red tape.  Gaider himself has gone on record as pointing this out: whatever we feel about the actual circumstances, the fact is that Meredith did have the right to act on her own authority and could later claim that the situation was so extremely dangerous that she was obligated to act accordingly, since the local Grand Cleric was removed from the equation and the next available official who could legally authorize Annulment wasn't exactly within a short running distance.

It may be a minor detail, but it's an important one for the story: Meredith carried out Annulment on her own authority, specifically without waiting for legal authorization.

Where does it say Elthina turned her down ? Ser Karras never says that. Neither did Elthina, not on any of my 10 playthroughs

I'll do some hunting to track down the precise source and get back with you. Meredith did indeed ask for Annulment from Elthina, who said no.  It's not directly stated in any dialogue with Elthina, but it is there.  In any event, the fact is, Meredith ultimately sought out out the Divine's authorization, so whatever Elthina did or didn't say is beside the point.  If the conversation you are referring to with Karras is the one I recall, he says only that Meredith SENT for the Right, not that she had received it.  At no point is it EVER stated that Meredith got the Divine's go-ahead.  That's the entire point behind many of the debates here--whether Meredith was or was not acting illegally by going ahead with the Right without the Divine's sanction.  Again, bear in mind that Meredith didn't declare it until after Elthina's death.  That alone is a pretty big clue that she didn't already have authorization.

Modifié par Silfren, 08 septembre 2012 - 08:18 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

http://social.biowar...ex/6981321&lf=8

Was this it?

[coldwetn0se]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/6981321&lf=8

Was this it?

I knew I had read something like that before.  Good find.  I'll also LINK David Gaider's answer in regards to that.

[sylvanaerie]

OMFG D.Gaider is so funny...this was on the same thread. I don't know how to quote and bring it up here, so just copy/pasted it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, Meredith's act of genocide against innocent men, women, and children was completely legal according to Chantry law.


"Innocent" in this case being the mages of the Circle, yes.

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

At any rate, yes. Legally the templars and the Chantry are required to protect the public (who are innocent in the maner of not being the explode-in-your-face sort of kitten) from the Circle's potential dangers... or that is the intention, anyhow.

Kinda gives you a new respect for Ser Pounce...were he a mage cat...

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[Silfren]

Never mind.  Screwy post.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 septembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I consider the law somewhat less than relevant when it's inherently unjust. Also, Gaider's line is really rather too flippant for the issue at hand.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I consider the law somewhat less than relevant when it's inherently unjust. Also, Gaider's line is really rather too flippant for the issue at hand.

I agree that Gaider's meaning rather got lost behind the flippancy of his wording, and that people got too caught up in his seeming nonchalance over it; however, I think his meaning is actually quite clear if you can get past the snark.  He meant only that the innocence of mages is irrelevant to the danger they pose as being essentially walking bombs.  If a kitten were the sort of creature that could quite literally explode at any given second, with no warning whatsoever, and there is no way to determine this from casual observation of said kitten, then it doesn't matter if the kitten's own intentions are benign, and the kitten is innocent of the danger it poses.  People generally aren't going to concern themselves with the moral innocence of a given person if that person was known to be capable of causing random and widespread destruction without warning or even provocation. 

Mind you, I am a full-on mage supporter--I completely disagree with the idea of treating mages as guilty till proven innocent, or with treating them as walking bombs regardless of guilt or innocence.  But I totally get what Gaider meant with his statement, his seriously ill-chosen phrasing notwithstanding.  I think that that was what Gaider and the other writers actually WANTED to convey in the world of Dragon Age: mages who are inherently dangerous no matter how strong-willed and morally upstanding they are, so that the choice to support or oppose their freedom truly is a hard one with no perfect solution.  I just think also that the lore as given to us fails to actually demonstrate this.

[Renmiri1]

O.o
I was positive Meredith had the thing already, she seemed to require it so quickly without even blinking..

What David Gaider posts is very weird. I have been comparing the mages situation to human rights until now. The way he puts it though is like mages are walking bombs. We don't see that at all on the games. And why wasn't that a problem on the Tevinter Imperium ?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems mages got so dangerous AFTER the fall of the black city. During Elven times they didn't seem to object to their people having magic. Neither did the Tevinter Imperium. What has happened since then ?

PS: It still feels a bit disturbingly close to RL human rights issue. Here in America we have a TV Channel and a very popular Radio personality telling us 24 x 7 that Muslins are dangerous that any muslim at any moment can turn into a suicide bomber / terrorist. They even wanted to forbid Muslims from having a gym 6 blocks from the 9/11 site and we have people shooting at muslims and burning their Koran on TV. Just because some popular shock jock says some muslims might be dangerous. UGH

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 12:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Renmiri1 wrote...

O.o
I was positive Meredith had the thing already, she seemed to require it so quickly without even blinking..

Thanks to Anders. Regardless of whether or not he's a terrorist (I doubt either of us will convince the other) the fact remains that he did make things worse.

What David Gaider posts is very weird. I have been comparing the mages situation to human rights until now. The way he puts it though is like mages are walking bombs. We don't see that at all on the games. And why wasn't that a problem on the Tevinter Imperium ?

Presumably because they sent other mages after them, and because mages were a minority even then. Plus, there was no real reason to hide magic, so mages were free to get proper instruction without having to hide.

At any rate, I remember reading about a character named Olivia, (now might be a good time to note that I've only read about DA2, rather than playing it) who was an apostate who lost it in front of Hawke in under ten seconds. Then there's Uldred, who is a lesser example since he was doing some magic that wasn't a good idea, and got turned that way. Connor is probably the best example, in that he really does some damage before being stopped. So we do see some indication that mages are dangerous when they don't mean to be. As for when mages do mean to be dangerous? Quentin, Orsino, heck even Jowan gets in on the game in the Mage Origin. He doesn't kill anybody, (or at least I think they all got back up) but he does manage to indispose some people who are supposed to be more powerful than he is. Not to mention that mage Wardens in DA:O seem to be notorious game-breakers.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems mages got so dangerous AFTER the fall of the black city. During Elven times they didn't seem to object to their people having magic. Neither did the Tevinter Imperium. What has happened since then ?

Tevinter still doesn't, partially because of cultural issues, partially because they now have templars. Although you might be on to something there.

PS: It still feels a bit disturbingly close to RL human rights issue. Here in America we have a TV Channel and a very popular Radio personality telling us 24 x 7 that Muslins are dangerous that any muslim at any moment can turn into a suicide bomber / terrorist. They even wanted to forbid Muslims from having a gym 6 blocks from the 9/11 site and we have people shooting at muslims and burning their Koran on TV. Just because some popular shock jock says some muslims might be dangerous. UGH

I think that discussing real life politics gets threads shut down. That said, I'd like to point out that with mages, at least, it's partially justified. Especially in Kirkwall: I think it's down in the lore that the City itself corrupts mages. Literally, the buildings and streets are a bad influence.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 septembre 2012 - 01:35 .

[Renmiri1]

Did Anders make things worse ?

He certainly rushed things but the way I see it his "surprise attack" allowed some Kirkwall mages to survive and escape.

Usually no mage escapes an annulment and then is up to Templars to make up a story about the reasons. Pretty easy to blame the dead!

Would Elthina manage to stop Meredith ? I doubt it. Things were coming apart and pretty soon one side would just go psycho. If not Anders than Orsino, Grace, Allan, Emille.. If not Meredith then Karras or some other hardliner. Templars were already arresting and killing civilians just for giving food and a couch for a mage to sleep.

IMHO the crisis would blow up sooner or later and Anders actions made it possible for mages to have the "surprise" factor in their favor. And the opportunity to die fighting, not die cowering in fear. So he made things better. It was just a very sh*tty situation with no good way to end. His way wouldn't be my first choice, but wasn't the worst that could have happened.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Okay, you've got me there. I was going to say she wouldn't go against Elthina and the Divine, but with that idol? She tried to kill Hawke. She's known for about half a decade how stupid that is.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[LobselVith8]

sylvanaerie wrote...

OMFG D.Gaider is so funny...this was on the same thread. I don't know how to quote and bring it up here, so just copy/pasted it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, Meredith's act of genocide against innocent men, women, and children was completely legal according to Chantry law.


"Innocent" in this case being the mages of the Circle, yes.

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

At any rate, yes. Legally the templars and the Chantry are required to protect the public (who are innocent in the maner of not being the explode-in-your-face sort of kitten) from the Circle's potential dangers... or that is the intention, anyhow.

Kinda gives you a new respect for Ser Pounce...were he a mage cat...

I didn't realize ignoring the point entirely was funny.

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

O.o
I was positive Meredith had the thing already, she seemed to require it so quickly without even blinking..

What David Gaider posts is very weird. I have been comparing the mages situation to human rights until now. The way he puts it though is like mages are walking bombs. We don't see that at all on the games. And why wasn't that a problem on the Tevinter Imperium ?

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems mages got so dangerous AFTER the fall of the black city. During Elven times they didn't seem to object to their people having magic. Neither did the Tevinter Imperium. What has happened since then ?

This has always been one of my problems with the mage question.  I get that the intention was to create a world in which it truly was a grey issue with very problematic answers and no single solution that wasn't fraught with moral dilemmas.  However, the lore as given to us contradicts that, with the examples you gave, and a few more: the ancient elves ALL had magic, so we're told, and yet we're given no indication that this ever led to catastrophic bloodshed or chaos.  In the present era, even, for all the ever-present warnings of the constant threat mages supposedly pose, we hear of societies with free mages, including one that so treasures its mages that it refuses to allow the Chantry to impose its Circle laws.  And of course Tevinter is rampant with free mages. Clearly either the danger is not so great, or else these societies of free mages have developed effective safeguards against its dangers...otherwise all these places with free mages would be smoking ruins and demons and abominations would be pouring into the rest of Thedas.  Yet none of that has happened.  This is one case where absence of evidence is sufficient to indicate that the so-called mage problem is a ginormous Chantry lie. 

Or we could just fall back to the unsatisfying conclusion that the writers failed rather astoundingly to notice the obvious hole in their narrative.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I consider the law somewhat less than relevant when it's inherently unjust. Also, Gaider's line is really rather too flippant for the issue at hand.

That's who Gaider is. He's typically flippant.

The problem is he often contradicts the actual lore; didn't you read his attempts to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite Morrigan saying she doesn't believe in the Maker or in a higher power? Or when he claimed none of the mages in Dragon Age II were insane? His contradictions extend beyond the lore; his explanation about the developers' decision to kill Leandra is contradicted by another developer in the same thread.

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

O.o
I was positive Meredith had the thing already, she seemed to require it so quickly without even blinking..

Thanks to Anders. Regardless of whether or not he's a terrorist (I doubt either of us will convince the other) the fact remains that he did make things worse.

Eh.  One could justifiably argue that Anders just forced the world to stop pretending that there was nothing at all wrong with the current system.  He didn't make things worse, he just forced an end to the stalemate and provided mages a real, actual chance to take their fate into their own hands, rather than continuing to merely exist under the false perception that things were already as close to fair as they could be made.  (I call this a false perception because according to the previous setup, the Chantry held ALL the power and gave the mages only the illusion of being able to self-govern via their fraternities and conventions).

It keeps being brought up that the mages have it great because they're fed, clothed, sheltered, and educated.  Someone even suggested that in return they're occasionally asked for help, as if this were a condition they were offered, a equitable exchange.  Seriously?  The reality is that mages are locked away against their will.  All the food, clothes, shelter, and education in the world don't make up for the fact that this is a choice they DO NOT MAKE OF THEIR OWN VOLITION.  In return for these base needs, not ONLY are they locked up, but they have to deal with constant surveillance, to the extent we're told they have to go out of their way to have sexual trysts in secret because they generally are disallowed even that much.  There is nothing equitable about this, and the stress of being under literally constant watch and suspicion, to the extent that you have to have permission to even step OUTSIDE, is not to be underestimated as to its effect on a person's psychological well-being.  The ceaseless nature of this suspicion, the belief that mages must be watched at all times because even the strongest and most morally sound could fall to demons at any moment...it is this unyielding distrust that leads to mages becoming so resentful and embittered...or else just so utterly convinced of their own incompetence, that creates the very situation the templars constantly warn against. 

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

the ancient elves ALL had magic, so we're told, and yet we're given no indication that this ever led to catastrophic bloodshed or chaos

True, we're never given an indication magic led to Arlathan having any problems -- aside from the obvious Imperium douchebag Magisters -- but that isn't to say it wasn't speculated upon by historians in Thedas. The codex entry on Sundermount seems to state IIRC that historians believe Arlathan was declining in power long before the Imperium itself really began to form.

Whether that was due to magic or other troubles is unknown, as is the validity of the suspicion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 septembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I think Meredith attempted to go over Elthina's head and receive authorization from the Divine, but she did NOT actually receive any such permission.

Correct. They didn't have it granted from Elthina. As such, the only way Meredith could legally acquire it when Elthina was alive is if A) Elthina granted it or the Divine herself authorized it.

Once Elthina was removed, as you said there was no more red tape barring Meredith from doing the thing she so desperately wanted to do, thanks to the idol.

[Renmiri1]

Meredith was definitely digging for excuses.. Her fight with Orsino at the "Last Straw" was yet another attempt to find an excuse.

As for the Divine.. She was considering an Exalted March, which Eltina mentions, would risk razing Kirkwall to the ground. Compared to that the Right of Annulment was actually merciful since it only killed mages. No one likes them robed troublemakers anyway 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Meredith was definitely digging for excuses.. Her fight with Orsino at the "Last Straw" was yet another attempt to find an excuse.

As for the Divine.. She was considering an Exalted March, which Eltina mentions, would risk razing Kirkwall to the ground. Compared to that the Right of Annulment was actually merciful since it only killed mages. No one likes them robed troublemakers anyway 

I'm not convinced the Divine was considering an Exalted March, actually.  Given what we glimpsed of Justinia in Leliana's DLC from Origins, and what we learn about her in Asunder, it doesn't add up.  I wonder if there wasn't a plan to reveal more about that particular storyline that got scrapped or sidelined in the decision to move on from DA2 to other DA-related projects.  Justinia has been portrayed as a woman with radical ideas for overhauling the Chantry and as someone who prefers to forgive than to condemn.  That doesn't exactly line up with a person wanting to raze an entire city-state to the ground based on rumors.

[sylvanaerie]

*snip*

I didn't realize ignoring the point entirely was funny.

I didn't miss the point, I just find the idea of exploding kittens completely absurd because they don't exist.  He's pointing out that just because something looks all innocent on the outside doesn't change the fact that it's dangerous.  Just because he didn't give you the answer you want, and he did it in an amusing/flippant manner doesn't make his point any less valid.  I'm willing to cut him some slack on that because Anders, mages, the Grand Cleric and Hawke don't exist either. 

TBH the issues in this story didn't raise much emotion from me, because it's fantasy, when all is said and done, at the end, I can just click the 'exit' and go do something else.  Did i enjoy the story?  Yes. Did I enjoy multiple playthroughs.  Damn skippy I did (and going through another one atm with a King Cousland import)--a mage (my favorite class) at that.

The only two who inspire much of any feeling are Anders, and I hate him because his behavior throughout the game is abhorrant to me personally, and Varric who is so snarky/irreverant about nearly every issue in the story and is a welcome breath of fresh air.  If he inspires this much debate on the boards, it might be argued that Anders was well written and I can't dispute that.  My only grief is if you rival him, he assumes you're templar friendly even if you have been 100% supportive of mages, which was kind of immersion breaking for me, and the cause of much of my distancing from the game itself.

Do I almost always (with only 2 exceptions) side mages? Yep.  I'd do that even without Anders' stunt.  Do I take the issue so seriously I get all bent out of shape?  Not after 12 playthroughs, I can't.  Anders never survives any of my playthroughs because for most of my Hawke's he's someone to be pitied who made a bad choice (merging with Justice), but, like an addict, his bad choice ruins not just his own life, but everyone around him as well.  Worse, he's become a menace to everyone around him, and not even just around him but from long distance as well!  He's become an 'exploding kitten' as it were.  If I felt an "intervention" would work, I would but lore tells us the only way to separate a host and demon is to kill the demon, and at that point, Hawke can't enter the Fade to get rid of Anders' demon, he has perhaps minutes at most to react to what's going on.  Separating them isn't an option at all in the game, anyway.  If it were, I would.  At that point, killing him is the only option my Hawke's are left with to save lives, which includes the man Anders used to be. 

He says, if you try to argue with him about killing Karl, that he would want to have a friend who cares enough to kill him if he were ever made tranquil.  Just because he dances at the end of Justice's puppet strings instead of templar ones doesn't make that request any less valid to my Hawke's.  I have friended him and rivaled him, and I much prefer his rivaled dialogues to his friended ones.  Rivaled you can almost convince him not to go through with it, then Justice steps out and takes over, throwing a monkey wrench into the mix.

Just as some people don't kill him (for whatever reason they choose to do so), and those reasons are just as valid.  A lot of people spare him, even if they don't agree mass murder is an option, and I realize a lot of people agree with his choices and have avidly defended that choice on the boards.  But I don't agree, and no amount of arguing from anyone is going to change my PoV on that subject.  Mass murder is not an option, and that's why I usually side mages because that's what KC Crazy wants to do. 

Even so, mages vs templars is a fictional issue!  I'm not going to take it seriously because it's fantasy.  All the real life arguments are irrelevant, because there are no mages in reality.  We don't have people walking around who can forcibly remove your brains through you're ears, or cause you to burst into flame with a thought.

I don't usually kill him out of malice.  I've only had one character actually murder him with malice, but Gawain Hawke (who still sided with the mages) was kind of a ruthless bastard anyway. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[LobselVith8]

sylvanaerie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize ignoring the point entirely was funny.

I didn't miss the point, I just find the idea of exploding kittens completely absurd because they don't exist.  He's pointing out that just because something looks all innocent on the outside doesn't change the fact that it's dangerous.  Just because he didn't give you the answer you want, and he did it in an amusing/flippant manner doesn't make his point any less valid.  I'm willing to cut him some slack on that because Anders, mages, the Grand Cleric and Hawke don't exist either.

Gaider ignored the point of hundreds of Circle mages being killed for an act an apostate committed; therefore, innocent people being killed in an act of genocide simply for being mages.

sylvanaerie wrote...


TBH the issues in this story didn't raise much emotion from me, because it's fantasy, when all is said and done, at the end, I can just click the 'exit' and go do something else.  Did i enjoy the story?  Yes. Did I enjoy multiple playthroughs.  Damn skippy I did (and going through another one atm with a King Cousland import)--a mage (my favorite class) at that.

The only two who inspire much of any feeling are Anders, and I hate him because his behavior throughout the game is abhorrant to me personally, and Varric who is so snarky/irreverant about nearly every issue in the story and is a welcome breath of fresh air.  If he inspires this much debate on the boards, it might be argued that Anders was well written and I can't dispute that.  My only grief is if you rival him, he assumes you're templar friendly even if you have been 100% supportive of mages, which was kind of immersion breaking for me, and the cause of much of my distancing from the game itself.

Do I almost always (with only 2 exceptions) side mages? Yep.  I'd do that even without Anders' stunt.  Do I take the issue so seriously I get all bent out of shape?  Not after 12 playthroughs, I can't.  Anders never survives any of my playthroughs because for most of my Hawke's he's someone to be pitied who made a bad choice (merging with Justice), but, like an addict, his bad choice ruins not just his own life, but everyone around him as well.  Worse, he's become a menace to everyone around him, and not even just around him but from long distance as well!  He's become an 'exploding kitten' as it were.  If I felt an "intervention" would work, I would but lore tells us the only way to separate a host and demon is to kill the demon, and at that point, Hawke can't enter the Fade to get rid of Anders' demon, he has perhaps minutes at most to react to what's going on.  Separating them isn't an option at all in the game, anyway.  If it were, I would.  At that point, killing him is the only option my Hawke's are left with to save lives, which includes the man Anders used to be. 

He says, if you try to argue with him about killing Karl, that he would want to have a friend who cares enough to kill him if he were ever made tranquil.  Just because he dances at the end of Justice's puppet strings instead of templar ones doesn't make that request any less valid to my Hawke's.  I have friended him and rivaled him, and I much prefer his rivaled dialogues to his friended ones.  Rivaled you can almost convince him not to go through with it, then Justice steps out and takes over, throwing a monkey wrench into the mix.

Just as some people don't kill him (for whatever reason they choose to do so), and those reasons are just as valid.  A lot of people spare him, even if they don't agree mass murder is an option, and I realize a lot of people agree with his choices and have avidly defended that choice on the boards.  But I don't agree, and no amount of arguing from anyone is going to change my PoV on that subject.  Mass murder is not an option, and that's why I usually side mages because that's what KC Crazy wants to do.  

Even so, mages vs templars is a fictional issue!  I'm not going to take it seriously because it's fantasy.  All the real life arguments are irrelevant, because there are no mages in reality.  We don't have people walking around who can forcibly remove your brains through you're ears, or cause you to burst into flame with a thought.

I don't usually kill him out of malice.  I've only had one character actually murder him with malice, but Gawain Hawke (who still sided with the mages) was kind of a ruthless bastard anyway. 

Anders hates that his people are forced into servitude; I'd be angry, too, if people in society simply accepted it as the status quo because the religion says so. Anders deals with people brushing off the abhorrent treatment of mages by religious fanatics who think they have "domination over mages by divine right." I'm not inclined to kill a man who wanted to end the slavery of his people.