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[Renmiri1]

Silfren wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Meredith was definitely digging for excuses.. Her fight with Orsino at the "Last Straw" was yet another attempt to find an excuse.

As for the Divine.. She was considering an Exalted March, which Eltina mentions, would risk razing Kirkwall to the ground. Compared to that the Right of Annulment was actually merciful since it only killed mages. No one likes them robed troublemakers anyway 

I'm not convinced the Divine was considering an Exalted March, actually.  Given what we glimpsed of Justinia in Leliana's DLC from Origins, and what we learn about her in Asunder, it doesn't add up.  I wonder if there wasn't a plan to reveal more about that particular storyline that got scrapped or sidelined in the decision to move on from DA2 to other DA-related projects.  Justinia has been portrayed as a woman with radical ideas for overhauling the Chantry and as someone who prefers to forgive than to condemn.  That doesn't exactly line up with a person wanting to raze an entire city-state to the ground based on rumors.

Didn't Asunder show that Divine Justinia had just assumed her post ? Asunder takes place 2 years after the events on Kirkwall and during those 2 years the governing divine dissolved the council of mages just for daring to elect Fiona their leader.

I get the impression that the Divine who wanted an Exalted March in Kirkwall and dissolved the council is the old geezer set in her old ways, reacting at mages / people who dare defy the status quo, not Justinia who defies the status quo and sides with Fiona herself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider ignored the point of hundreds of Circle mages being killed for an act an apostate committed; therefore, innocent people being killed in an act of genocide simply for being mages.

All he was saying is that Meredith was legally allowed to do what she did. Though I will note he mentioned that the Divine might have called Meredith on the carpet for it later, and that one might say she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer before acting.

And why would he give us any more than that? My impression from his posts is that he's just trying to clarify legimitately unclear points of lore and leave us to do the moral debating.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[LobselVith8]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider ignored the point of hundreds of Circle mages being killed for an act an apostate committed; therefore, innocent people being killed in an act of genocide simply for being mages.

All he was saying is that Meredith was legally allowed to do what she did. Though I will note he mentioned that the Divine might have called Meredith on the carpet for it later, and that one might say she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer before acting.

And why would he give us any more than that? My impression from his posts is that he's just trying to clarify legimitately unclear points of lore and leave us to do the moral debating.

You're incorrect. Saying that mages are "exploding kittens" in response to my comment that Meredith killed people who were innocent of Anders' actions is Gaider ignoring the point.

And he said "more than that" when he tried to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're incorrect. Saying that mages are "exploding kittens" in response to my comment that Meredith killed people who were innocent of Anders' actions is Gaider ignoring the point.

He's not ignoring, he's qualifying. He's pointing out that even an innocent mage can be dangerous.

And he said "more than that" when he tried to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite the evidence to the contrary.

That's not what I'm discussing here, though I'll admit that one's kind of a stretch.

[LobselVith8]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're incorrect. Saying that mages are "exploding kittens" in response to my comment that Meredith killed people who were innocent of Anders' actions is Gaider ignoring the point.

He's not ignoring, he's qualifying. He's pointing out that even an innocent mage can be dangerous.

It quantifies nothing if the statement ignores how Meredith is ordering the execution of the entire Circle of Kirkwall simply because they are mages. Condemning hundreds of men, women, and children to die for the actions of one man was the point; Gaider's snide remark ignored this entirely for a ridiculous comment that addressed nothing about what I said.

[schalafi]

The one line in Act 3 that really made me sad was Anders saying, as they were trying to get to the Gallows, "This is worse than I thought it would be".

[Ryzaki]

That line made me angry. What did he think would happen?

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Meredith was definitely digging for excuses.. Her fight with Orsino at the "Last Straw" was yet another attempt to find an excuse.

As for the Divine.. She was considering an Exalted March, which Eltina mentions, would risk razing Kirkwall to the ground. Compared to that the Right of Annulment was actually merciful since it only killed mages. No one likes them robed troublemakers anyway 

I'm not convinced the Divine was considering an Exalted March, actually.  Given what we glimpsed of Justinia in Leliana's DLC from Origins, and what we learn about her in Asunder, it doesn't add up.  I wonder if there wasn't a plan to reveal more about that particular storyline that got scrapped or sidelined in the decision to move on from DA2 to other DA-related projects.  Justinia has been portrayed as a woman with radical ideas for overhauling the Chantry and as someone who prefers to forgive than to condemn.  That doesn't exactly line up with a person wanting to raze an entire city-state to the ground based on rumors.

Didn't Asunder show that Divine Justinia had just assumed her post ? Asunder takes place 2 years after the events on Kirkwall and during those 2 years the governing divine dissolved the council of mages just for daring to elect Fiona their leader.

I get the impression that the Divine who wanted an Exalted March in Kirkwall and dissolved the council is the old geezer set in her old ways, reacting at mages / people who dare defy the status quo, not Justinia who defies the status quo and sides with Fiona herself.

No, Justinia ascended to the seat of the Divine during the events of DA2.  In 9:34, per her codex.  It's the entire reason that Leliana is the Divine's left hand--Justinia played a key role in Leliana's escape from torture and death at the hands of Marjolaine, and the two apparently have a backstory of having been co-conspirators for some time.  The previous Divine, Beatrix, was known to be so old and doddering that she was nothing more than a puppet.  In fact a lot of people liked it that way and resent Justinia for being young enough and thereby mentally sound enough that she does more than simply warm the Divine's cushioned throne.

[Renmiri1]

Silfren wrote...
No, Justinia ascended to the seat of the Divine during the events of DA2.  In 9:34, per her codex.  It's the entire reason that Leliana is the Divine's left hand--Justinia played a key role in Leliana's escape from torture and death at the hands of Marjolaine, and the two apparently have a backstory of having been co-conspirators for some time.  The previous Divine, Beatrix, was known to be so old and doddering that she was nothing more than a puppet.  In fact a lot of people liked it that way and resent Justinia for being young enough and thereby mentally sound enough that she does more than simply warm the Divine's cushioned throne.

Interesting!

She definitely looks a lot more pro mage and rebellious during Asunder. Is hard to see the Asunder Justinia tolerating Meredith or the Tranquil Solution. In Asunder she respects mages a lot more. Also boggles the mind that Leliana didn't even try to talk to Anders or other local mages and just blamed a foreign conspiracy. That is not what we see on Asunder. Rhys, Whyne and other mages input is valued in Asunder. On DA3 is like the Kirkwall mages don't even exist..

But maybe she regrets having been so pro templar and apathetic after the **** hit the fan on Kirkwall on 9:37. So we see her changed on Asunder.

schalafi wrote...
The one line in Act 3 that really made me sad was Anders saying, as they were trying to get to the Gallows, "This is worse than I thought it would be".

You are talking about Mr "Let's just merge with a Fade spirit and see what happens". Foreseeing problems before he acts is not Anders' strong point 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .

[NRieh]

1. I would added an option to stop anders
2. To help Anders in this plot

He did not want you to help. It's his right not to. He would not allow you to stop him (unless you think you're though enough to deal with Justice... which I doubt). Hawke is neither cause nor solution to what happens in game. Hawke' s not the Shepard. (S)he just happened in a wrong place and in a wrong time.

Some do not like how "unimportant" Hawke is, but I just love this game because of it's relatively non-herocentric story. I'd hate to see yet-another-all-mighty-unique-marysueish-true-hero, to be honest. But I'm afraid that's what we'll get in DA3.

And no, it's not same as screwing Shepard's rachni queen choice. And I feel for those who killed Anders or Leliana in DAO.

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

He did not want you to help. It's his right not to. He would not allow you to stop him (unless you think you're though enough to deal with Justice... which I doubt). Hawke is neither cause nor solution to what happens in game. Hawke's not the Shepard. (S)he just happened in a wrong place and in a wrong time.

Some do not like how "unimportant" Hawke is, but I just love this game because of it's relatively non-herocentric story. I'd hate to see yet-another-all-mighty-unique-marysueish-true-hero, to be honest. But I'm afraid that's what we'll get in DA3.

Let's be serious here. Hawke isn't just an everyman; he kills templars, mages, a possessed Profane, an Ancient Rockwraith, a High Dragon, a Harvester, and a possessed Knight-Commander. He can defeat the Arishok in a duel. Anders can tell a pro-mage apostate Hawke that he is the leader mages have been waiting centuries for. The problem is the narrative sets Hawke up to be overly passive in situations that make little sense: when Petrice reveals she is willing to murder innocent people to start a religious conflict, he does nothing; when Cullen is going to take Bethany to a Circle where mages are being made tranquil illegally, he does nothing; when Meredith takes control of the city-state, Hawke does nothing for three entire years. This continues in the two story DLCs that were released after the game, where Hawke does nothing about the antagonist, and in effect makes things worse.

I'm not going to applaud the developers for making Hawke lazy.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Crimson Moon wrote...

The game was rushed, so there wasn't a lot of choices in this game. I wish I could stop Anders. It doesn't matter to me if someone else does it. I just don't want Anders to be hunted by practically everyone in the game. The game could have been better. I hate how the game presents you with the same outcome no matter what choices you make. Regardless of whether you side with Orsino or Meredith, the outcome is always the same. You would kill Orsino then Meredith. They could have instead have 2 different final bosses with different ending in the end. No matter what you do, mother will always die, no matter what you do, Merrill will want to complete the mirro, no matter what you do, Anders will destroy the chantry. For a game based on choices, they don't give us a lot of freedom to make choices.

I wouldn't blame the game being rushed on everything. Some of the lack of options were deliberate story-telling choices, such as the fate of Leandra. And really, if Anders hadn't Jenga-ed the chantry, how else would we have gotten exactly to the point where we needed the end game fight?

As much as I love Anders as a character and hate some of the things that Dragon Age 2 lacked (which is a lot), I personally believe that they did the right thing by disallowing the player to stop him. Sometimes, making a choice that doesn't actually change the outcome is worse than having no choice at all. *coughMassEffect3cough*

[NRieh]

Let's be serious here. Hawke isn't just an everyman; he kills templars, mages, a possessed Profane, an Ancient Rockwraith, a High Dragon, a Harvester, and a possessed Knight-Commander. He can defeat the Arishok in a duel.

(S)he does not do it single-handed, right? Especially last one mentioned. And if we compare Hawke vs Anders dead templars score - I'm sure Hawke will be left far behind.

Hawke is not a great fighter or mage (no matter how Anders calls him\\her - it's Anders, you know). Hawke is not big diplomat. Hawke is...just Hawke. I discussed it in one of PMs yesterday night, and I may repeat myself here. If you need to understand how "True Hero" thing works - take a look at Harry Potter, Star Wars or even DAO. Remove Harry from Harry Potter and see what happens with story. Remove Luke from Star Wars - story collapses asap. Take away Warden - and welcome to 5th Blight. And now try to remove Hawke. Anders will do same or worse (he does that regardless of romance and Hawke support), Merill will bring same misery upon herself and her clan. Arishok will still come for Isabella (and very likely guards+templars could beat him out). All main plot points are still there. World did not even change much. Can you feel the difference between those two types of "heroes"?

And also extra note about "superHawke" - do not forget that we know this stroy as Varric Thethras told it. And even while he likes to....exaggerate a bit - main thing he's trying to tell Seeker, is that Hawke was NOT a Hero they were thinking of. All the "Great deeds" were either pure chance or something that Hawke was not involved in at all.

And don't remind me about Arishok duel. I've just recieved a perfectly fitting link yesterday.

Modifié par Nrieh, 11 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

(S)he does not do it single-handed, right? Especially last one mentioned. And if we compare Hawke vs Anders dead templars score - I'm sure Hawke will be left far behind.

Based on what?

Nrieh wrote...

Hawke is not a great fighter or mage (no matter how Anders calls himher - it's Anders, you know). Hawke is not big diplomat. Hawke is...just Hawke. I discussed it in one of PMs yesterday night, and I may repeat myself here. If you need to understand how "True Hero" thing works - take a look at Harry Potter, Star Wars or even DAO. Remove Harry from Harry Potter and see what happens with story. Remove Luke from Star Wars - story collapses asap. Take away Warden - and welcome to 5th Blight. And now try to remove Hawke. Anders will do same or worse (he does that regardless of romance and Hawke support), Merill will bring same misery upon herself and her clan. Arishok will still come for Isabella (and very likely guards+templars could beat him out). All main plot points are still there. World did not even change much. Can you feel the difference between those two types of "heroes"?

You're conflating the idea of a true hero with my statement that Hawke - as the narrative tells it - kills a myriad of dangerous foes when he isn't being the most passive protagonist we've seen in Dragon Age.

Nrieh wrote...

And also extra note about "superHawke" - do not forget that we know this stroy as Varric Thethras told it. And even while he likes to....exaggerate a bit - main thing he's trying to tell Seeker, is that Hawke was NOT a Hero they were thinking of. All the "Great deeds" were either pure chance or something that Hawke was not involved in at all.

And don't remind me about Arishok duel. I've just recieved a perfectly fitting link yesterday.

When Varric isn't saying Hawke is white even if he's black, he's addressing how Hawke kills a number of foes. You can't claim he's just a guy when the story describes him as a killing machine, when the Plot doesn't demand him to be a buffoon or passive. 

[Virginian]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders actions don't actually qualify as a "terrorist" act. I'd just like to point that out.

Terrorism is an extremely loaded word, and one that our society uses extremely carelessly.

If Anders blowing up the Chantry doesn't count as a terrorist act then slamming planes into skyscrappers doesn't count as terrorism.

[NRieh]

Based on what?

On this. Also gives some hints whether Hawke could or could not stop him at all.

http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf

And I'm sorry to say - but that's kinda canon. Because - Helper. Not in game - I know, but at least it was not tweeted... unlike most of recent ME lore.

You're conflating the idea of a true hero with my statement that Hawke - as the narrative tells it - kills a myriad of dangerous foes

Hawke did not do that alone, you know. AND if not for Hawke - those would have been dealt with.

When Varric isn't saying Hawke is white even if he's black, he's addressing how Hawke kills a number of foes.

Oh yeah. Remember prologue. And just hope that rest of story had...less exaggerations. Which is definetely true, we can compare Bethany's....shapes in prologue and during game.. 8P

[Spicen]

Virginian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders actions don't actually qualify as a "terrorist" act. I'd just like to point that out.

Terrorism is an extremely loaded word, and one that our society uses extremely carelessly.

If Anders blowing up the Chantry doesn't count as a terrorist act then slamming planes into skyscrappers doesn't count as terrorism.

Well maybe it can be considered as a rebelion?

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Based on what?

On this. Also gives some hints whether Hawke could or could not stop him at all.
http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf 

Ifa short story contradicts a multitude of story plots from Dragon Age II, I don't see why we should take it as canon. It contradicts Knight-Commander Greagoir's behavior, it ignores that the new ruler is pro-mage, it ignores how the Grey Wardens have autonomy from the Chantry, and the mage protagonist who asked for the Magi boon certainly
isn't going to capitulate to the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars as Warden-Commander or the new Arl of Amaranthine.

Also, Anders isn't a cannibal or invincible.

Nrieh wrote...

And I'm sorry to say - but that's kinda canon. Because - Helper. Not in game - I know, but at least it was not tweeted... unlike most of recent ME lore.

If the short story is rife with mistakes and errors that contradict the actual narrative, then it's as canon as Gaider's claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas.

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're conflating the idea of a true hero with my statement that Hawke - as the narrative tells it - kills a myriad of dangerous foes

Hawke did not do that alone, you know. AND if not for Hawke - those would have been dealt with.

Whether or not it could have been dealt with without the presence of Hawke isn't the issue of dispute here, it's the story element that - when Hawke is in combat - he's effective at killing people, darkspawn, monsters, dragons, and an assortment of enemies. We can see a rogue Hawke use the murder knife to kill a slaver several feet away; we can see a blood mage Hawke use blood magic to take down a High Dragon in a cutscene. This clearly isn't just your average combatant.

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When Varric isn't saying Hawke is white even if he's black, he's addressing how Hawke kills a number of foes.

Oh yeah. Remember prologue. And just hope that rest of story had...less exaggerations. Which is definetely true, we can compare Bethany's....shapes in prologue and during game.. 8P

Given that the prologue makes it seem as though Varric has been telling people that Hawke is white for almost a decade, I take bigger issue with that element. Just like the errors with the short story with Anders, the developers weren't thinking clearly.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

he did it because he's insane

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...



Ifa short story contradicts a multitude of story plots from Dragon Age II, I don't see why we should take it as canon. It contradicts Knight-Commander Greagoir's behavior, it ignores that the new ruler is pro-mage, it ignores how the Grey Wardens have autonomy from the Chantry,

All irrelevant. My Warden was attacked by a Templar Comander who was by my side when Alistair allowed me to conscript Anders. And that Templar fought my Warden to the death, to get at Anders. Where was Gregoir ?

Face it, we don't really know how Templars work on Ferelden. What we do see in game both on DAO, DAA and DA2 makes the short story perfectly plausible. 

LobselVith8 wrote...


and the mage protagonist who asked for the Magi boon certainly
isn't going to capitulate to the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars as Warden-Commander or the new Arl of Amaranthine.

And yet Warden Commander / Arl of Amarantine is attacked by Templars because of Anders.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, Anders isn't a cannibal or invincible.

Not cannibal, not invincible. Just very powerful when he is transformed. Which the short story makes very clear. He was transformed itno something inhuman and frightening. I'd imagine a Harvester or a beefed up pride demon.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the short story is rife with mistakes and errors that contradict the actual narrative, then it's as canon as Gaider's claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas.

Believe it or not, is up to you, but it has no errors. You were the one not paying attention. The story was released just after DA2 was released, while Anders was very fresh in the mind of it's writer. Which is a lot different than getting a manager to recall something he did 2-3 years later like Gaiden's atheist comment. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that the prologue makes it seem as though Varric has been telling people that Hawke is white for almost a decade, I take bigger issue with that element. Just like the errors with the short story with Anders, the developers weren't thinking clearly.

Or you forgot / missed the DAA quest for Anders.. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[Virginian]

Spicen wrote...

Virginian wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders actions don't actually qualify as a "terrorist" act. I'd just like to point that out.

Terrorism is an extremely loaded word, and one that our society uses extremely carelessly.

If Anders blowing up the Chantry doesn't count as a terrorist act then slamming planes into skyscrappers doesn't count as terrorism.

Well maybe it can be considered as a rebelion?

Rebellion and Terrorism are not mutally exclusive.

[NRieh]

And yet Warden Commander / Arl of Amarantine is attacked by Templars because of Anders.

You forgot to mention [possible] Queen of King Alistair Ferelden title, hehe. Yeah, such a cool guys - those templars...

Ifa short story contradicts a multitude of story plots from Dragon Age II, I don't see why we should take it as canon.

And I don't see what ELSE can we take as canon in our case. It's either this or nothing. If given canon contradicts your head - you are free to headcanon stuff. Headcanons are sacred and not to be argued about, if you need it one way or another - it's your right, you payed same $$ for this game to enjoy it your way. But at the same time any headcanon can not be used as pro or con argument.

I don't see any direct evidences that Hawke could stop Anders. Neither from game itself nor from story on site. Justice was pretty much strong even while being in a dead decaying body, without support of a mage (which was not a weakling). Yes, it's good to have it in game, but writers cant answer each and every possible question that can be asked.

We could theorethically suggest something like stabbing him while he is asleep - but even that is not 100% probable. Remember first time you see him in DA2? He is turned away from you, and yet there is a glance of Justice, and then he grabs his staff and ready to fight back. Theese two guys know how to survive and fight for their lives.

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

All irrelevant. My Warden was attacked by a Templar Comander who was by my side when Alistair allowed me to conscript Anders. And that Templar fought my Warden to the death, to get at Anders. Where was Gregoir ?

Face it, we don't really know how Templars work on Ferelden. What we do see in game both on DAO, DAA and DA2 makes the short story perfectly plausible.

Rylock illegally attacked Anders and The Warden. They don't have the leverage to force the ruler of Ferelden, the Hero of Ferelden, or the First Warden to capitulate to their whims. A mage can even become the unprecedented new Arl of Amaranthine, commanding an army and governing a city.

Renmiri1 wrote...

And yet Warden Commander / Arl of Amarantine is attacked by Templars because of Anders.

Illegally, as Grey Wardens operate outside the jurisdiction of the Chantry; which is why the developers said Grey Warden mages didn't have to hand over their children to the Chantry like Circle mages do.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Not cannibal, not invincible. Just very powerful when he is transformed. Which the short story makes very clear. He was transformed itno something inhuman and frightening. I'd imagine a Harvester or a beefed up pride demon.

Being immune to weapon damage seems to invoke the idea of being invincible.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Believe it or not, is up to you, but it has no errors. You were the one not paying attention. The story was released just after DA2 was released, while Anders was very fresh in the mind of it's writer. Which is a lot different than getting a manager to recall something he did 2-3 years later like Gaiden's atheist comment.

Regardless of when it was released, it contradicts the actual story and lore.

Renmiri1 wrote...
Or you forgot / missed the DAA quest for Anders.. 

The one where templars attempt to illegally murder Grey Wardens and a national hero? This seems like the kind of incident that would embarrass the Chantry, not empower them.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 septembre 2012 - 03:00 .

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 Regardless of when it was released, it contradicts the actual story and lore. 

 
It does not.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The one where templars attempt to illegally murder Grey Wardens and a national hero? This seems like the kind of incident that would embarrass the Chantry, not empower them.

Whatever you call it, it happens and proves that Anders is being chased by Templars, even with Alistair, the Arl of Amarantine and the rest vouching for him. You can even add Andraste and the Maker protecting Anders if you want, it still happened. Templars tried to kill Anders and would stop at nothing to get him dead.

So having a Templar join the Wardens to follow Anders is plausible and the short story is not "full of errors". It does not contradict story and lore.  It is a good extension of what we see in DAA, well done and well written.


You don't have to believe it though, your game , your story 

But when you come to the forums for debating stuff, your headcanon has the same value as mine, i.e. not much. In game lore / codex and dialog overules us. And Bioware sanctioned prequels also overrule us both. In the context of debating things. Your game can still have a completely different backstory for Anders, Hawke and anyone else.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Spicen]

O just wanted to drop in and say," Anders commited an act of terrorism equivalent to laden blowing the skyscrapers in NY."

Spicen approves: +1000