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[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regardless of when it was released, it contradicts the actual story and lore. 

 
It does not.

Since Anders isn't a cannibal or immune to weapon damage, I respectfully disagree.

Also, since it makes no sense for the templars to have any degree of authority over the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden, the story makes no sense. Anders isn't the first mage to be conscripted into the Wardens, and having a spy in their midst would be fundamentally stupid to permit. The short story is a mockery of the lore, the narrative of the game, and common sense.

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The one where templars attempt to illegally murder Grey Wardens and a national hero? This seems like the kind of incident that would embarrass the Chantry, not empower them.

Whatever you call it, it happens and proves that Anders is being chased by Templars, even with Alistair, the Arl of Amarantine and the rest vouching for him. You can even add Andraste and the Maker protecting Anders if you want, it still happened. Templars tried to kill Anders and would stop at nothing to get him dead.

So having a Templar join the Wardens to follow Anders is plausible and the short story is not "full of errors". It does not contradict story and lore.  It is a good extension of what we see in DAA, well done and well written.

You don't have to believe it though, your game , your story 

But when you come to the forums for debating stuff, your headcanon has the same value as mine, i.e. not much. In game lore / codex and dialog overules us. And Bioware sanctioned prequels also overrule us both. In the context of debating things. Your game can still have a completely different backstory for Anders, Hawke and anyone else.

You're conflating the templars who try to arrest him because of his letters to Karl with the events of the short story, which makes no sense in the context of the actual game storyline.

[NRieh]

Since Anders isn't a cannibal or immune to weapon damage, I respectfully disagree.

He's not cannibal, yes.

But did we ever confront Junders directly in full power during the game? Backstab goes to Anders who is eager to take it. Scene from Legacy does not involve threat from party - his main efforts go against Corypheus, as he needs to get rid of that control, and Justice serves as some slap on a face. Both have no reasons to destroy companions at that moment. Am I missing any active Junders fights? Fade, probably. Well, fade is... Fade.

And take explosion itself. Do you think it's possible for each and every mage to blow up huge buildings with a help of few common components and one staff motion? I'd take it as an indication of some extraodinary powers.

Why do you think Hawke could stop him at all?

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 

Since Anders isn't a cannibal or immune to weapon damage, I respectfully disagree.

Also, since it makes no sense for the templars to have any degree of authority over the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden, the story makes no sense. Anders isn't the first mage to be conscripted into the Wardens, and having a spy in their midst would be fundamentally stupid to permit. The short story is a mockery of the lore, the narrative of the game, and common sense.
...
You're conflating the templars who try to arrest him because of his letters to Karl with the events of the short story, which makes no sense in the context of the actual game storyline.

Oi.. Havent we been here before ?

There is game content that shows Templars going against " the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden " so your contention that makes no sense... Makes no sense! 

Did the Wardens permit it ? It seems to be what Anders thinks but like you I suspect that the story isn't that simple. I certainly don't think Alistair permitted a templar to try to kill his wife for harboring a mage! Face it, Templars are going rogue all the time. Meredith isn't an isolated case at all. We see it on DAA, we see it on Asunder. Even in DAO we see Cullen go rogue and kill some mages, on the ending slides.

You are in denial so I think I'm going to stop responding. Because I don't think I can continue to logically debate you. And I don't want to turn this into a flame war.

Enjoy your game and your headcanon, I'll enjoy mine 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the short story contradicts a multitude of story plots from Dragon Age II, I don't see why we should take it as canon.

And I don't see what ELSE can we take as canon in our case. It's either this or nothing. If given canon contradicts your head - you are free to headcanon stuff. Headcanons are sacred and not to be argued about, if you need it one way or another - it's your right, you payed same $$ for this game to enjoy it your way. But at the same time any headcanon can not be used as pro or con argument.

If the short story establishes that Anders - in symbiosis with Justice - feasts on flesh and is immune to weapon damage automatically, I don't see how we can take it as canon if it contradicts the behavior of Anders - and Justice, when he takes over - as well as the fact that Anders can be killed by a weapon, rather than being immune to weapon damage like he is in the short story.

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since Anders isn't a cannibal or immune to weapon damage, I respectfully disagree.

He's not cannibal, yes.

But did we ever confront Junders directly in full power during the game?

We've encountered Justice taking control during the narrative, and he never once expresses any desire to feast on flesh, nor are there any events where we hear about Anders or Justice feasting on the flesh of others.

Nrieh wrote...

Backstab goes to Anders who is eager to take it.

Yet if the short story was accurate, Anders should have been immune to Hawke stabbing him with the knife.

Nrieh wrote...

Scene from Legacy does not involve threat from party - his main efforts go against Corypheus, as he needs to get rid of that control, and Justice serves as some slap on a face. Both have no reasons to destroy companions at that moment. Am I missing any active Junders fights? Fade, probably. Well, fade is... Fade.

And take explosion itself. Do you think it's possible for each and every mage to blow up huge buildings with a help of few common components and one staff motion? I'd take it as an indication of some extraodinary powers.

Why do you think Hawke could stop him at all?

Extraordinary powers don't explain the inconsistencies between the short story and the story of Dragon Age II.

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 
Since Anders isn't a cannibal or immune to weapon damage, I respectfully disagree.

Also, since it makes no sense for the templars to have any degree of authority over the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden, the story makes no sense. Anders isn't the first mage to be conscripted into the Wardens, and having a spy in their midst would be fundamentally stupid to permit. The short story is a mockery of the lore, the narrative of the game, and common sense.
...
You're conflating the templars who try to arrest him because of his letters to Karl with the events of the short story, which makes no sense in the context of the actual game storyline.

Oi.. Havent we been here before ?

There is game content that shows Templars going against " the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden " so your contention that makes no sense... Makes no sense!  

You seem to have misunderstood me. When I addressed that the templars have no "authority" over the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden, that doesn't mean I'm saying templars are incapable of going against them; it means the templars are incapable of forcing the Wardens to accept an obvious templar spy into their midst when the Hero of Ferelden is very popular, the ruler of Ferelden is pro-mage, and the Wardens have no reason to capitulate to their demands, especially with Rylock and her cohorts having made an assassination attempt against the nation's hero.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Did the Wardens permit it ? It seems to be what Anders thinks but like you I suspect that the story isn't that simple. I certainly don't think Alistair permitted a templar to try to kill his wife for harboring a mage! Face it, Templars are going rogue all the time. Meredith isn't an isolated case at all. We see it on DAA, we see it on Asunder. Even in DAO we see Cullen go rogue and kill some mages, on the ending slides.

Templars going rogue =/= permitting a templar into the Wardens. I can imagine a mage protagonist saying the same thing that the Chantry said when the Magi boon was requested: "no."

Renmiri1 wrote...

You are in denial so I think I'm going to stop responding. Because I don't think I can continue to logically debate you. And I don't want to turn this into a flame war.

Enjoy your game and your headcanon, I'll enjoy mine 

If your argument is that I'm in "denial" because you can't even be bothered to properly respond to my posts without missing the point entirely, then I don't see any weight to your arguments.

[isaa109]

Come to think of it, I'm guessing he only did it to support the freedom of mages...

[NRieh]

We've encountered Justice taking control during the narrative, and he never once expresses any desire to feast on flesh, nor are there any events where we hear about Anders or Justice feasting on the flesh of others.

Following your logic, if you once had sushi for dinner, but ever since you never did it in public or ordered only pizza - it denies and contradicts the fact that you actually can eat suhi at all, not to mention that it's a heavy retcon of your former experience... 8P

Yet if the short story was accurate, Anders should have been immune to Hawke stabbing him with the knife.

Where do you see Justice in a backstab scene? And where do you see Anders-human immune to stab in short story?

Templars going rogue =/= permitting a templar into the Wardens.

I don't see a reason why would Wardens deny a templar.

"Mages within the Grey Wardens are technically apostates, but are granted reprieve from templar persecution upon recruitment. The harboring of apostates—even blood magic practicing maleficarum—is a point of contention between the two orders, and is only tempered by its relative rarity, due to the Wardens' conservative recruitment standards. Nonetheless, the Wardens are expected to act appropriately if a mage grows beyond their control, else the templars consider the mage's immunity forfeit."

Templars may clearly want to watch how much any of Warden-apostate is allowed. And considering that this very apostate was a thorn in their... back quite for a long time - it's only natural to keep an eye on him.

Extraordinary powers don't explain the inconsistencies between the short story and the story of Dragon Age II.

Yoг contradict yourself a bit. Either there ARE "extraordinary powers" or you do not believe short story.Can't be both.

And once again - what are those inconsistencies? You did not see him going frenzy and drinking blood during DA2? You find it inconsistent that one of most annoying Ferelden apostates was still watched by an order?

My point (rerurning to the question from OP) - Hawke could not change it, because - Justice, because short story(mostly), and aslo few hints from game about scale of Junders powers.

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We've encountered Justice taking control during the narrative, and he never once expresses any desire to feast on flesh, nor are there any events where we hear about Anders or Justice feasting on the flesh of others.

Following your logic, if you once had sushi for dinner, but ever since you never did it in public or ordered only pizza - it denies and contradicts the fact that you actually can eat suhi at all, not to mention that it's a heavy retcon of your former experience... 8P

If the short story establishes the abomination Anders as a cannibal who is immune to weapon damage, it's a little different than your analogy.

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet if the short story was accurate, Anders should have been immune to Hawke stabbing him with the knife.

Where do you see Justice in a backstab scene? And where do you see Anders-human immune to stab in short story?

Anders and Justice stopped being seperate people the moment they decided to share their existance together (as Nathaniel suggests to Justice when he possessed Kristoff in Amaranthine); Anders became an abomination. He admits he doesn't know where Anders ends and Justice begins. Anders and Justice are intertwined; they have a symbiotic existance, they share a life together. They aren't seperate people anymore.

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars going rogue =/= permitting a templar into the Wardens.

I don't see a reason why would Wardens deny a templar.

I don't see why the Hero of Ferelden would allow a templar spy into the Wardens, especially if he's pro-mage.

Nrieh wrote...

"Mages within the Grey Wardens are technically apostates, but are granted reprieve from templar persecution upon recruitment. The harboring of apostates—even blood magic practicing maleficarum—is a point of contention between the two orders, and is only tempered by its relative rarity, due to the Wardens' conservative recruitment standards. Nonetheless, the Wardens are expected to act appropriately if a mage grows beyond their control, else the templars consider the mage's immunity forfeit."

Templars may clearly want to watch how much any of Warden-apostate is allowed. And considering that this very apostate was a thorn in their... back quite for a long time - it's only natural to keep an eye on him.

Anders ran away, several times. He wasn't a blood mage, he didn't practice forbidden magic, and the templars are the ones who violate the law by attempting to murder Anders and the Warden-Commander in cold blood. After Rylock's assassination attempt, the templars aren't in a position to force the issue. And who is going to force the issue anyway? Knight-Commander Greagoir, who won't even force the issue of templar control if the ruler of Ferelden says that the mages of the Circle of Ferelden should be free in the US Ending?

Nrieh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Extraordinary powers don't explain the inconsistencies between the short story and the story of Dragon Age II.

Yoг contradict yourself a bit. Either there ARE "extraordinary powers" or you do not believe short story.Can't be both.

Addressing that Anders has "extraordinary powers" doesn't change the fact that it's inconsistent for Anders to be immune to weapon damage in the short story, and not immune to weapon damage in the story of Dragon Age II.

Nrieh wrote...

And once again - what are those inconsistencies? You did not see him going frenzy and drinking blood during DA2? You find it inconsistent that one of most annoying Ferelden apostates was still watched by an order?

Considering the mage protagonist can become a high noble by becoming Arl of Amaranthine, governing an entire city, commanding an army, and leading the nation's Grey Wardens, and can conscript a Dalish mage into the order, I'd say having the templars focus on Anders is more than a little ridiculous.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Renmiri1]

@Nrieh - I gave up, after showing in game content that templars DO defy the king, the hero, the Arl and all is pointless to keep on repeating ourselves. There is in game content. LobselVth8 just can't accept his own lying eyes, what can you do ?

As for the immunity to knives again, this is done by Juunders in full abomination stage.
No blue glowy light = No Junders = No immunity.

Anders lets your Hawke kill him by preventing Justice from "glowing". Simple and easy to understand. But I fear our friend is too wrapped up in his own canon to let any in game facts change his mind.

And as for the flesh eating, Justice needs no food whatsoever. That carnage was done in the heat of the battle by a savage beast / abomination in the thralls of bloodlust. It doesn't mean Justice eats people. There was a boxer - Myke Tyson - that bit the ear ofa another boxer in the middle of a fight. Does Myke Tyson eat people ? Does he like human ears for a snack ? Nope, it was not about food, it was about rage and blood-lust.
Since Anders never lets Junders get that lost in bloodlust again, guess what ? No flesh eating. Not even a little ear as a midnight snack 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

@Nrieh - I gave up, after showing in game content that templars DO defy the king, the hero, the Arl and all is pointless to keep on repeating ourselves.

Look, if you can't even be bothered to dispute my actual argument, I don't see why you bother. Rylock is already an example of a templar defying the order of the ruler of Ferleden; that wasn't my argument, and I've already pointed this out to you before.

I addressed the templars aren't in a position to coerce the Crown, the Wardens, or the Hero of Ferelden into accepting an obvious templar spy. The templars don't have the leverage to force the Wardens to accept a templar spy into their organization, especially in the wake of Rylock's assassination attempt on the Warden-Commander and one or more Grey Wardens.

Honestly, I think it's a mistake, and we know there's a certain amount of handwaving that goes on; for instance, Anders and Justice become one for the events of Kirkwall even if Anders was never recruited by the Warden-Commander, and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes when he possessed Kristoff's corpse.

Renmiri1 wrote...

There is in game content. LobselVth8 just can't accept his own lying eyes, what can you do ?

I'm addressing the discrepancies between the short story and the storyline.

Renmiri1 wrote...

As for the immunity to knives again, this is done by Juunders in full abomination stage.
No blue glowy light = No Junders = No immunity.

Anders lets your Hawke kill him by preventing Justice from "glowing". Simple and easy to understand. But I fear our friend is too wrapped up in his own canon to let any in game facts change his mind.

I address the obvious difference between Anders in the short story, and Anders in the game, and you claim I'm coming up with my own canon, while you fan fic an explanation from your own imagination to explain why Anders is immune to weapon damage in the short story, and not in "The Last Straw." Excuse me for not thinking the explanation you made up on your own isn't canon.

Renmiri1 wrote...

And as for the flesh eating, Justice needs no food whatsoever. That carnage was done in the heat of the battle by a savage beast / abomination in the thralls of bloodlust. It doesn't mean Justice eats people. There was a boxer - Myke Tyson - that bit the ear ofa another boxer in the middle of a fight. Does Myke Tyson eat people ? Does he like human ears for a snack ? Nope, it was not about food, it was about rage and blood-lust.

The short story does say: "His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me."

[NRieh]

As for the immunity to knives again, this is done by Juunders in full abomination stage.
No blue glowy light = No Junders = No immunity.

Yeah, you put it as short and plain as possible here. I did not realize that understanding this very simple thing requires some extra efforts and about two pages of detailed analysis of templar<--->warden relations...But it looks like it did not work anyway...

[LobselVith8]

Nrieh wrote...

As for the immunity to knives again, this is done by Juunders in full abomination stage.
No blue glowy light = No Junders = No immunity.

Yeah, you put it as short and plain as possible here. I did not realize that understanding this very simple thing requires some extra efforts and about two pages of detailed analysis of templar<--->warden relations...But it looks like it did not work anyway...

Considering the writers couldn't even be bothered to be consistent with Malcolm's backstory for one single game, and contradicted Anders' views on the Chantry's version of the fall of the Golden City in Legacy for the sake of making him a Chantry mouthpiece, you'll have to excuse me for being skeptical that this isn't simply another of the many, many mistakes that the writers have made.