43 réponses à ce sujet

[Coachdongwiffle]

 I just don't find it interesting since there both wrong. Who cam first the chicken or the egg. haha. Stupid, it shows the Mages turn to blood magic and demons even if not being threatended by Templars and Templars crack down harder than they should even Mage's aren't rebelling. My choice was always just kill all of them because there all stupid. It made me mad that whenever I sided with the mages I was proven wrong cause they'd just turn to blood magic. It made me mad that Templars killed innocents. Can't anybody just be a good person? 

[EricHVela]

(The Egg if you go by genetics as neither parent would be genetically chickens but the zygote in the egg would be with nature selecting its genes to continue.)

It shows that Meredith was insane and Orsino was panicky. The person that was wrong was Anders. He forced everyone's hand insisting that he knew best. He made the decision to turn the situation into an absolute one despite that Orsino and Meredith were seeking mediation from the Chantry.

Those who think they know what's best for everyone likely don't. (Variation of a couple of Douglas Adams quotes from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.)

[MichaelStuart]

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

[EricHVela]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

Thanks to Anders, you have no choice now. You'll have to pick one.

EDIT: You'll have to pick one and hope you can find a way to beat the other side or get them to find common ground and peace. (Given that fighting is apparently more fun, you'll likely have to beat the other side to a bloody pulp and force them to agree to whatever you want them to do.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[Saberchic]

ReggarBlane wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

Thanks to Anders, you have no choice now. You'll have to pick one.

Anders? How about Elthina? If she had actually done something instead of, well, doing nothing, Anders might not have done what he did.

[EricHVela]

Saberchic wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

Thanks to Anders, you have no choice now. You'll have to pick one.

Anders? How about Elthina? If she had actually done something instead of, well, doing nothing, Anders might not have done what he did.

Orsino was going to Elthina. We'll never know if he could get her to do something because Anders killed her. They were seeking mediation, going directly to the Chantry for a definitive answer. Anders refused to let them get that far.

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

Thanks to Anders, you have no choice now. You'll have to pick one.

Anders? How about Elthina? If she had actually done something instead of, well, doing nothing, Anders might not have done what he did.

What could Elthina have done?  If she had gone whole sale against Meredith's harsh measures against the mages, the knight commander's paranoid mind would have labeled her a blood Mage pawn and arrested her, possibly declaring an annulment of the circle while she was at it.  If she had sided with Meredith, the mages would have been even more backed into a corner than they are.

Elthina refusing to allow either side to have her support was one of the only things keeping the entire situation from spinning out of control, that's why Anders targeted the Chantry in the first place.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 septembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[GodWood]

The mage/templar thing is a genuinely interesting dilemma it's just that DA2 handled it in the most horrible way possible.

[MichaelStuart]

ReggarBlane wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really care about the Mages or the Templars, and would prefer not to have to deal with either one.

Thanks to Anders, you have no choice now. You'll have to pick one.

EDIT: You'll have to pick one and hope you can find a way to beat the other side or get them to find common ground and peace. (Given that fighting is apparently more fun, you'll likely have to beat the other side to a bloody pulp and force them to agree to whatever you want them to do.)

Can I pick the option to wipe both sides?

[hexaligned]

It was decent in DAO, I was already sick of it by the end of act I in DA2 however. I'm just hoping they come up with some new/"original" material for DA3. They are just beating us over the head with it at this point.

[Saberchic]

ReggarBlane wrote...
Orsino was going to Elthina. We'll never know if he could get her to do something because Anders killed her. They were seeking mediation, going directly to the Chantry for a definitive answer. Anders refused to let them get that far.

7 years.

She sat back and let the attrocities happen for 7 years. There was no reason for Anders or anyone else to believe that help was coming.

[Saberchic]

Lord Aesir wrote...

What could Elthina have done?  If she had gone whole sale against Meredith's harsh measures against the mages, the knight commander's paranoid mind would have labeled her a blood Mage pawn and arrested her, possibly declaring an annulment of the circle while she was at it.  If she had sided with Meredith, the mages would have been even more backed into a corner than they are.

Elthina refusing to allow either side to have her support was one of the only things keeping the entire situation from spinning out of control, that's why Anders targeted the Chantry in the first place.

That's a lot of supposition, but I'll go with it.

Elthina could have talked to the Divine if Meredith was going overboard and had her removed from her post. Perhaps if she had taken a more active role, Meredith's instability would have been recognized and dealt with. But she didn't.

The mage and templar situation was already out of control, the templars had quite the stranglehold on them. Only a major event was going to allow the mages to regain some control over their lives. I don't agree with what Anders did, but I can see why he felt it was the only answer.

Modifié par Saberchic, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...
Orsino was going to Elthina. We'll never know if he could get her to do something because Anders killed her. They were seeking mediation, going directly to the Chantry for a definitive answer. Anders refused to let them get that far.

7 years.

She sat back and let the attrocities happen for 7 years. There was no reason for Anders or anyone else to believe that help was coming.

If that was true, then Anders would not have targeted her as a peacekeeper.

[Saberchic]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...
Orsino was going to Elthina. We'll never know if he could get her to do something because Anders killed her. They were seeking mediation, going directly to the Chantry for a definitive answer. Anders refused to let them get that far.

7 years.

She sat back and let the attrocities happen for 7 years. There was no reason for Anders or anyone else to believe that help was coming.

If that was true, then Anders would not have targeted her as a peacekeeper.

I think he realized that her position made her a viable mediator between the templars and mages, but as far as getting mage concerns dealt with... I don't remember anything in the game that pointed to that.

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...

That's a lot of supposition, but I'll go with it.

Elthina could have talked to the Divine if Meredith was going overboard and had her removed from her post. Perhaps if she had taken a more active role, Meredith's instability would have been recognized and dealt with. But she didn't.

The mage and templar situation was already out of control, the templars had quite the stranglehold on them. Only a major event was going to allow the mages to regain some control over their lives. I don't agree with what Anders did, but I can see why he felt it was the only answer.

Asunder makes clear that the chain of command between the Chantry and the Templars is not quite so clear as you suggest.  Meredith was writing to the divine herself, asking for the rite of annulment (Still not sure if it's right or rite), presumably because Elthina would not grant it.  I maintain that the idea that someone as paranoid and unstable as Meredith would suffer being removed quietly is nothing short of ludicrous.  This was going to end bloodily the moment Meredith touched that idol.  Elthina was just trying to keep it from erupting, a doomed mission if truth be told, but there really wasn't much she could do, much less that was likely to succeed.  Not to mention, she was worried the Divine was going to call an Exalted March, which was well within the realm of possibility if Leliana was speaking truthfully.

People also seem to disregard the actual state of magic in the city at that point.  Let's consider the street gangs, we have a small army of blood mages and their thralls in Hightown, if I recall, a demon cult in Lowtown, and Mage led Tervinter slavers in the docks.  Add in the odd abomination and you might be able to understand why Meredith's methods might not seem unreasonable to an outside observer.

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...

I think he realized that her position made her a viable mediator between the templars and mages, but as far as getting mage concerns dealt with... I don't remember anything in the game that pointed to that.

Well, after those seven years Orsino still believed Elthina would not allow the search of the tower and Meredith apparently did too given how much she wanted to stop him going there.  Elthina's role was more to stop Meredith from going entirely too far, like refusing the rite of annulment, than in actively addressing the all mage's concerns.  By the end, Elthina herself admitted that Meredith had grown beyond her control.

[Saberchic]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

That's a lot of supposition, but I'll go with it.

Elthina could have talked to the Divine if Meredith was going overboard and had her removed from her post. Perhaps if she had taken a more active role, Meredith's instability would have been recognized and dealt with. But she didn't.

The mage and templar situation was already out of control, the templars had quite the stranglehold on them. Only a major event was going to allow the mages to regain some control over their lives. I don't agree with what Anders did, but I can see why he felt it was the only answer.

Asunder makes clear that the chain of command between the Chantry and the Templars is not quite so clear as you suggest.  Meredith was writing to the divine herself, asking for the rite of annulment (Still not sure if it's right or rite), presumably because Elthina would not grant it.  I maintain that the idea that someone as paranoid and unstable as Meredith would suffer being removed quietly is nothing short of ludicrous.  This was going to end bloodily the moment Meredith touched that idol.  Elthina was just trying to keep it from erupting, a doomed mission if truth be told, but there really wasn't much she could do, much less that was likely to succeed.  Not to mention, she was worried the Divine was going to call an Exalted March, which was well within the realm of possibility if Leliana was speaking truthfully.

People also seem to disregard the actual state of magic in the city at that point.  Let's consider the street gangs, we have a small army of blood mages and their thralls in Hightown, if I recall, a demon cult in Lowtown, and Mage led Tervinter slavers in the docks.  Add in the odd abomination and you might be able to understand why Meredith's methods might not seem unreasonable to an outside observer.

I know the templar and chantry relationships aren't clear cut, but there is, theoretically, a proper chain. I never suggested that Meredith would go quitely, but neither do I think it likely that Elthina would be arrested so easily as you suggested either.  

If you really want to look at the state of magic, let's actually do that. As time goes on, it has gotten worse. the more Meredith cracked down, the more the mages turned to the only defense they felt they had.

When I say that Elthina hadn't done anything for 7 years, that's only the time Hawke has been in Kirkwall. They were being abused before that time as well. I'm not saying the mages are completely innocent in all this, but when continually abused by the templars with no hope in sight, what do people expect them to do?

[EricHVela]

I wholly apologize for bringing Anders into a topic about whether we feel like bothering with the Mage/Templar war is worth it. Anders' actions are immaterial to the topic, and I was wrong to mention him.

Back on topic: I'm curious about the war, but I'm burnt-out on it. We just had a "gather the allies" and an all-out war for those of us that played ME. If they make it a head-to-head situation or a "gather the allies" game, meh.

However! If they turn it into a political posturing, espionage, chess match with multiple opponents against each other, then yes. I'm interested.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[LobselVith8]

GodWood wrote...

The mage/templar thing is a genuinely interesting dilemma it's just that DA2 handled it in the most horrible way possible.

Pretty much. It's an ideological schism between two groups over how magic should be handled; instead of an intriguing look into the riven between both groups, we had one-dimensional sadists and buffoons on both sides (with few exceptions).

[Saberchic]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I wholly apologize for bring Anders into a topic about whether we feel like bothering with the Mage/Templar war is worth it. Anders' actions are immaterial to the topic, and I was wrong to mention him.

Back on topic: I'm curious about the war, but I'm burnt-out on it. We just had a "gather the allies" and an all-out war for those of us that played ME. If they make it a head-to-head situation or a "gather the allies" game, meh.

However! If they turn it into a political posturing, espionage, chess match with multiple opponents against each other, then yes. I'm interested.

My apologies to the OP. I didn't realize how off topic we got.

Yes, I do hope DA3 is not about gathering allies. I've had enough of that too. I'm curious to see how much the templar and mage issue will weigh in on the next game. It would be nice if it influenced it or was a part of it, but I'm not sure about another whole game dedicated to that conflict.

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...
I know the templar and chantry relationships aren't clear cut, but there is, theoretically, a proper chain. I never suggested that Meredith would go quitely, but neither do I think it likely that Elthina would be arrested so easily as you suggested either.  

If you really want to look at the state of magic, let's actually do that. As time goes on, it has gotten worse. the more Meredith cracked down, the more the mages turned to the only defense they felt they had.

When I say that Elthina hadn't done anything for 7 years, that's only the time Hawke has been in Kirkwall. They were being abused before that time as well. I'm not saying the mages are completely innocent in all this, but when continually abused by the templars with no hope in sight, what do people expect them to do?

Elthina wouldn't resist and Meredith holds rather firm authority over her Templars.

You're assuming a causative relationship that is not proven to exist, at least not to the extent that even the majority of the incidents of blood magic and demons can be attributed to desperate Mages trapped by Meredith's policies.  What we do know for sure is that groups like the Resolutionists have come to Kirkwall for the express purpose of creating trouble for the Templars and strife in the city.  I know Meredith bears a heavy weight of the blame, even a hairbreadth majority, but it would be unfair to say that the deterioration of Kirkwall was not a joint effort.

To be fair, Meredith seemed to actually want to do her job properly near the beginning, considering her rejection of the Trnquil solution, her tolerance for magic deteriorated as her paranoia increased.  I'm not saying the mages don't have legitimate grievances.  They have many, but Elthina was not in a position to address them.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[Heimdall]

ReggarBlane wrote...

However! If they turn it into a political posturing, espionage, chess match with multiple opponents against each other, then yes. I'm interested.

Me too!  That supposed leaked description suggested that the protagonist would be searching for the hidden force manipulating the war, so I'm hoping that leans more in the direction you're suggesting.

[Saberchic]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Elthina wouldn't resist and Meredith holds rather firm authority over her Templars.

Why do you say this? I do not think Elthina would accept Meredith turning agianst her and I'm not sure all the templars would either. The templars aren't united in backing Meredith. There is a subset who work with mages to try to make things better (and some who don't but still aren't firmly behind Meredith).

[Heimdall]

Saberchic wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Elthina wouldn't resist and Meredith holds rather firm authority over her Templars.

Why do you say this? I do not think Elthina would accept Meredith turning agianst her and I'm not sure all the templars would either. The templars aren't united in backing Meredith. There is a subset who work with mages to try to make things better (and some who don't but still aren't firmly behind Meredith).

If she outright claimed that Elthina was being manipulated by a Blood Mage, I'm sure she could easily hand select enough Templars to get the job done and keep her behind bars.  The Templars answer to the Knight Commander before the Chantry.  If she ordered them to kill the Grand Cleric, then I would expect them to balk, but a form of protective custody due to suspected Blood Mage manipulation?  She could sell that to the majority.  As for Elthina, she has already given her stance on leaving the city and I don't think she would stand for bloodshed in her name.  She's very much a pacifist.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

If she outright claimed that Elthina was being manipulated by a Blood Mage, I'm sure she could easily hand select enough Templars to get the job done and keep her behind bars. 

Considering how unpopular Meredith is among the people - including her own templars - I don't think Meredith could attempt it without serious ramifications. The Chantry won't tolerate this becoming a successful precedent when it threatens their power. Also, Elthina is popular as Grand Cleric, while Meredith is reviled as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Templars answer to the Knight Commander before the Chantry. 

Actually, the Knight-Commander answers to the Grand Cleric, and the templars had no problem "escorting" Orsino despite Meredith throwing a tantrum about Elthina's order; in fact, one of the templars bowed to acknowledge Elthina, and they all ignored Meredith wanting Orsino in chains.