30 réponses à ce sujet

[Hello there friend]

I just found the complete edition for cheap on gog.com, and decided to play through it (until I get bored). So what could be more natural than to ask these forums for advice?

I've already partially decided on my build: I want a wizard with enough mental stats to get all the good conversation options, meaning 14 wisdom and 16 charisma, which I guess leaves us with 16 intelligence and whatever's left (not a lot) for dexterity and constitution. I also want to minimize the use of familiars, henchmen and summons.

Now - what spells should I get to survive this? Or, put another way, when playing through the OC, what spells and feats are best to select at levelup for an almost entirely solo wizard?

[MrZork]

You might consider the spell focus feats to increase the DC of your spells saves, since you won't be starting with super high intelligence, the wizard's main casting ability. But, really, you can get away with any moderately rational feat choices in the OC and, as a wizard, spell choice isn't super critical because you can learn spells from the scrolls you find and can buy. My only recommendation in that regard concerns the spells you choose during level-up: If you choose the spells introduced in the expansion packs during level-up (or, at least the ones you like), that might save you some headache in finding them in random loot, since they won't be available in stores. You should find the NWNWiki spell lists (e.g. http://nwn.wikia.com...r/wizard_spells) and linked descriptions valuable for exploring what spells do what.

One thing to consider, though, regarding your character design. Unless your character concept is really dependent on having a high wisdom and charisma, as a wizard you will be able to buff your PC into the "high" ranges using spells and potions. Not to mention that there are items (particularly charisma items) that you will likely come across and get from quests (and others you can buy) that increase those stats. That isn't to say there's anything wrong with a wizard having high scores in those stats. And, it's nice to not worry about swapping equipment or buffing before conversations. But, the option is always there to buff those stats instead, as needed.

[MagicalMaster]

8 Strength
8 Dexterity
14 Constitution
16 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
15 Charisma (you only need 15 to qualify for CheckCharismaHigh)

Assuming you're human...

1 Toughness, Spell Focus: Evocation
3 Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
5 Spell Penetration
6 Greater Spell Penetration
9 Spell Focus: Necromancy
10 Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
12 Silent Spell
15 Empower Spell, Maximize Spell
18 Extend Spell

Important Spells
Level 1: Mage Armor, Shield, Magicl Missile, Protection from Alignment
Level 2: Ghostly Visage, Combust, Endurance, Fox's Cunning
Level 3: Fireball, Haste, Find Traps, Scintillating sphere
Level 4: Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Elemental Shield, Lesser Spell Breach
Level 5: Firebrand, Lesser Mind Blank, Mestil's Acid Sheath, Cone of Cold
Level 6: Circle of Death (good against enemies level 8 or lower), Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, True Seeing, Undeath to Death
Level 7: Shadow Shield, Finger of Death
Level 8: Horrid Wilting, Mind Blank, Premonition
Level 9: Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop, Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Incidentally, if you ever would like to play someone else, let me know, I'd be happy to go through the original and/or custom campaigns.

[Shadooow]

You would also want to start with more str to carry more items. In first NWN OC you cannot give items to your henchmans to carry them for you (without game modification). The charisma/wisdom are usefull for persuading NPC to get better reward etc. yet the game is playable without it.

Of course, you can teleport in OC to the main hall everytime you will be encumbered, yet with 8base str that will be really very often.

Otherwise the build above is very good for generic playing, if you wouldnt know which ability to take at each 4lvl its intelligence.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 septembre 2012 - 12:49 .

[MagicalMaster]

You can get bags of holding pretty quickly (in Chapter 1) and you can also use Bull's Strength and other strength enhancements. Unless you're carrying armor or large weapons, most stuff is pretty light.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

You can get bags of holding pretty quickly (in Chapter 1) and you can also use Bull's Strength and other strength enhancements. Unless you're carrying armor or large weapons, most stuff is pretty light.

this is disputable

as MrZork said, you dont need such high charisma or wisdom just for better choices in conversations because the scripts doesnt check for base ability score so buffs from items/spells applies.

So if the player want he can help himself for this by pre-boosting int,char,wis abilities before conversation. But is it really such necessary? I found the possibility to carry more weight or have higher AC or have even more hitpoints much more profitable than having high charisma/wisdom to get different (not always better) choices in conversations.

All I wanted is to inform OP that strength has also meaning. Now its up to him what he prefers.

Summary:

Strength - melee damage, melee attack, maximum load
Dexterity - AC, ranged attack
Constitution - hitpoints - should be at least 12 for wizard, 14 preferably
Intelligence - wizard spell power and number - 16 at start, I would advise not more as that takes too many ability points
Wisdom - cleric/druid spell power/number
Charisma - sorcerer/bard spell power/number

the wisdom is occassionaly used for *insight* choices in coversation
charisma is often used for "trusthworthy" choices in conversation

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I found the possibility to carry more weight or have higher AC or have even more hitpoints much more profitable than having high charisma/wisdom to get different (not always better) choices in conversations.

All I wanted is to inform OP that strength has also meaning. Now its up to him what he prefers.

8 strength: 73
10 strength: 86
12 strength: 100

So 4 more points of strength would let him carry *half* of a full plate more.  Just get Bags of Holding, strength is really meaningless for a typical mage.  There's a reason it's left at 8 in 98%+ of mage builds.

Edit:  You'll also sometimes need to invest in the actual Persuade skill to open up some dialogue.  If you're very concerned about it, we could figure out a way to make sure you persuade skill is fairly high (Wizards don't get it as a class skill).

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

8 strength: 73
10 strength: 86
12 strength: 100

So 4 more points of strength would let him carry *half* of a full plate more.  Just get Bags of Holding, strength is really meaningless for a typical mage.  There's a reason it's left at 8 in 98%+ of mage builds.

Well, this is true - now add into consideration bulls strength and possibly items with str increase, because maximum load increases lot more later (or higher should i say). Its a difference to cast a maximized bulls strength when you have 8base str and 12.
8+5=13 -> 110pounds
14+5=19 -> 233pounds

so while it might be a difference of 27pounds at the beginning, you can see it that its more than double weight if you add other str bonuses into consideration.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Well, this is true - now add into consideration bulls strength and possibly items with str increase, because maximum load increases lot more later (or higher should i say).

True, but the difference is still the equivalent of carrying an extra full plate for the most part, and you're really just better off getting bags of holding.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Its a difference to cast a maximized bulls strength when you have 8base str and 12.
8+5=13 -> 110pounds
14+5=19 -> 233pounds

so while it might be a difference of 27pounds at the beginning, you can see it that its more than double weight if you add other str bonuses into consideration.

You said 8 and 12 and then compared 8 and 14

13 versus 17 is 110 versus 173, barely 50% more.  And that 50% more is barely more than an extra piece of heavy armor.

In practical terms, a single bag of holding does more than three times as much as 4 (or 6) extra base points of strength.  And you can easily get like half a dozen bags of holding.

It really just isn't worth losing the other stats, a powerbuilt wizard would be something like

8
8
16
18
8
8

With the last four points put into dexterity (for reflex) or wisdom (for will).

[Hello there friend]

Wow! So many responses - thank you all very much for participating in the discussion. It sounds like creating a wizard is more intuitive than I'd feared, which is encouraging. Since yesterday I've had a thought, though: I was thinking of adding points to dexterity and taking Expertise feats to boost armour class, since you appear to have quite a decent defense against magic damage from your spells. How awful an idea is this? It seems to me like you could get a very decent AC very quickly with defensive spells, but maybe enemies gain attack bonus too fast?

[MrZork]

For the OC, expertise works well to increase AC while casting. For future reference, you should know that there are modules where this doesn't work because Bioware made it easy to make it so that casting a spell cancels the combat mode. It seems like expertise-while-casting is commonly disabled on persistent worlds.

Also, keep in mind that expertise is a combat mode, and you can only have one of those active at a time. For mages, that isn't usually much of a limitation unless one likes using defensive casting mode (which I consider to be an annoyance to use, but it can be used without spending a feat). Generally, I consider expertise can be a useful defensive feat for casters, where it's allowed.

In the OC, it's not hard to use expertise and improved expertise along with other AC-boosting equipment and spells to create a mage who is almost untouchable to most of mobs and many of the bosses.

[MrZork]

BTW, I agree that bags of holding are pretty much a necessity for casters. But, I also find it to be a pain to have a mage who is constantly encumbered and needs to spend too much time shuffling things in and out of bags to move around.

And, the PC is unlikely to have access to a bag of holding until near the end of chapter one and I think six total throughout the OC. But, the -80% weight bags work well, too and there are several of those in various shops.

[MagicalMaster]

I was thinking of adding points to dexterity and taking Expertise feats to boost armour class, since you appear to have quite a decent defense against magic damage from your spells. How awful an idea is this? It seems to me like you could get a very decent AC very quickly with defensive spells, but maybe enemies gain attack bonus too fast?

In general, I'd suggest against it.  Sometimes its possible, but usually you have the situation where weaker mobs will struggle to get past defensive spells like Premonition and Stoneskin or stronger mobs will have enough AB to hit you constantly anyway.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

I was thinking of adding points to dexterity and taking Expertise feats to boost armour class, since you appear to have quite a decent defense against magic damage from your spells. How awful an idea is this? It seems to me like you could get a very decent AC very quickly with defensive spells, but maybe enemies gain attack bonus too fast?

In general, I'd suggest against it.  Sometimes its possible, but usually you have the situation where weaker mobs will struggle to get past defensive spells like Premonition and Stoneskin or stronger mobs will have enough AB to hit you constantly anyway.

correct, dexterity based casters are fail, if you want ac, put more in strength, take one level of fighter to get armor/shield proficiences and wear armor - that is however effective rather after you get automatic still spell feats which are at epic levels. Before then, its not a good idea because of chance of failure.

Expertise is usefull, yet you dont need the dexterity for it actually.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:33 .

[MagicalMaster]

I just don't really see the point of Expertise. Weaker mobs will be mostly defeated by Ghostly Visage/Shadow Shield or be AoEed quickly, stronger mobs will hit you anyway (which is why you have Stoneskin/Premonition/Improved Invisibility/Damage Shields/etc).

You're giving up spell feats to improve yourself against the things that should be least threatening.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

I just don't really see the point of Expertise. Weaker mobs will be mostly defeated by Ghostly Visage/Shadow Shield or be AoEed quickly, stronger mobs will hit you anyway (which is why you have Stoneskin/Premonition/Improved Invisibility/Damage Shields/etc).

You're giving up spell feats to improve yourself against the things that should be least threatening.

well speaking of OC, the expertise isnt such great benefit indeed, the OC is relatively easy (even on hard game difficulty) and its played on low lvl environment with a support of one or more (HotU) henchmans.

So, the question sounds what is truly needed? Spell penetration? BS - no one have SR and even the one or two NPC who might have it doesnt have it so high that pure caster wouldnt penetrated it. Also there is a amulet that grants spel lpenetration feat and few extra spell slots.

Spell focuses? +2DC isnt really difference, mobs in OC doesnt have evasion and most spells will kill them instantly. At 11lvl there is IGMS (no DC) which is the spell with best dmg. You dont need anything else anymore after you get into that level.

Even that, there are items that grants spell focus feats - elven armor and vecna robe IIRC.

True answer is that you cant screw the build for OC really. You might even later change the plan and take some fighter levels and focus more on melee combat (in OC thats possible, monsters have really low AC) or rogue to get access to interesting skills. The only we can provide is guideline.

[MrZork]

The OC can be a challenge going through it the first time. There aren't many hard fights, but there are a couple where the PC might not know a boss is there or that he's about to get swarmed. The thing with the OC is that there are so many ways to get items and so on that compensate for marginal build choices, that sheer intuition will result in a playable build 99% of the time, even not understanding the nuances that come into play creating "better" builds. But, as ShaDoOoW notes, the OC is mostly easy enough that there isn't anything specific to shoot for in a build, so it's hard to define a best approach to the process. To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

Regarding expertise and improved expertise in the OC, I don't see any real problem in taking it. By the end of the OC, a mage can walk into most encounters with long-term buffed AC in the low-to-mid forties without really trying for an AC build. But, there are some bosses with pretty good AB (30+). Think of a couple of the chapter three dragons, giants, etc. Those guys will hit that mage once or twice a round and tear through his DR spells pretty quickly. Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree. But, that's a tactical choice and I would say that improved expertise is a valid tactic.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

well speaking of OC, the expertise isnt such great benefit indeed, the OC is relatively easy (even on hard game difficulty) and its played on low lvl environment with a support of one or more (HotU) henchmans.

He's doing it without henchman/familiar/summon support, just as an FYI.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So, the question sounds what is truly needed? Spell penetration? BS - no one have SR and even the one or two NPC who might have it doesnt have it so high that pure caster wouldnt penetrated it. Also there is a amulet that grants spel lpenetration feat and few extra spell slots.

You obviously haven't played it in a while.  Quite a few mobs with spell resist, often powerful ones, but I'd rather not give spoilers.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

+2DC isnt really difference, mobs in OC doesnt have evasion and most spells will kill them instantly. At 11lvl there is IGMS (no DC) which is the spell with best dmg. You dont need anything else anymore after you get into that level.

+2(4) DC can often be anywhere from a 5-10% damage increase (10-20% for Greater Spell Focus) with spells, which is like a free caster level or two.  It's not even to beat Evasion, it's to make them do full damage.  IGMS is great for 1 or 2 targets, but for actual AoE he'll be using Fireball/Firebrand/Cone of Cold/Horrid Wilting/etc which all benefit from Spell Foci.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

Even that, there are items that grants spell focus feats - elven armor and vecna robe IIRC.

Which are random drops and you're better off wearing better armor.

ShaDoOoW wrote...Spell focuses?

True answer is that you cant screw the build for OC really. You might even later change the plan and take some fighter levels and focus more on melee combat (in OC thats possible, monsters have really low AC) or rogue to get access to interesting skills. The only we can provide is guideline.

True, you could do nothing but pick Skill Foci as feats and survive, but especially if you're new that's a bad idea.  And this fine fellow is new.

MrZork wrote...

To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

The thing is that while defense is only good up until a certain point, more offense is always better.  It's always beneficial to be better at killing things.  It often doesn't matter if your defenses are better.

MrZork wrote...

Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree.

First, what would he give up for Improved Expertise?

Second, I'd argue the mage should be killing the guys so fast it doesn't matter.  Put up damage shields and blast the enemies with spells, preferably IGMS for single targets if you have it, nothing should live more than a few rounds anyway.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Shadooow]

Fine the spell focuses are really usefull, +2DC is indeed +10%. There is also nothing else to take instead anyway.

Yet you dont persuade me about spell penetration. You are right that I havent played it for a while. I played HotU recently but only first chapter (I played wiz/AA and did not havent seen any spell resilient creature).
So maybe there actually are creatures with high spell resistance in OC. But how many? Is it worth to spend two feats on one or two bossess that can be beaten other way (henchman, damage shields, spells ignoring SR)?

However it is truth that there are no other choices really for the generic spellcaster. Maybe focus on enchantment spell school, or the discussed expertise which is nearly useless in NWN OCs. 
But if the OP would want expertise, the penetration feats would be what he should give up.

Also, other possibility would be to take some combat related feats like rapid reload (for better handling crossbow), weapon focus (xbow or bow if elf), improved critical. Ranged weapons are very good choice for caster characters to deal with weaker enemies, luring enemies or to handle situations when the character is outa of spells. Also few xbows has a haste on them - not sure if they can be found in OC but definitely in HotU.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[MrZork]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

To put it another way: When you don't need anything, what's the right way to get it?

The thing is that while defense is only good up until a certain point, more offense is always better. It's always beneficial to be better at killing things. It often doesn't matter if your defenses are better.

I certainly can't disagree that dead (not undead!) opponents typically pose no threat. What I was trying to point out is that a mage in the OC will not likely hit the point where more AC isn't helping him anymore. If he were likely to get to AC 60 without expertise, then I would certainly say, "You're in the clear on the AC front. It would be a waste to use any feats to improve it." But, I can think of at least one chapter three opponent whose AB is right around 40 (and has significant spell resistance) and at least one other in the mid 30s. And, there are several right around AB 30 in chapter four. For sure, a high AC isn't by any means necessary in the OC for a mage to deal with these or any other opponents; they will all fall to other approaches. But, it's also not the case that typical mage AC is already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.

More specifically, on the first run through the OC, it's certainly possible to be surprised by opponents before a mage has a chance to buff (or rebuff). On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety. I would certainly agree that it's also pretty straightforward to hotkey a stack of invisibility potions, but, again, that's a tactical choice.

Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Those are situations where expertise isn't worthless against the bosses because an extra +10 AC can make the difference between getting hit every few rounds and getting hit once or twice almost every round. Now obviously, one could argue that the mage shouldn't be facing those guys without a decent henchie or at least a familiar tanking for him, and I would tend to agree.

First, what would he give up for Improved Expertise?

Second, I'd argue the mage should be killing the guys so fast it doesn't matter. Put up damage shields and blast the enemies with spells, preferably IGMS for single targets if you have it, nothing should live more than a few rounds anyway.

Yup; two feats is a significant tradeoff, even for +10 AC. And, I prefer the same tactics you would argue for. I think I have maybe one mage built with improved expertise. (Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.) But, as I noted in the last post, those are tactical choices and if the OP wants tactics that allow his mage to be right in the thick of things (which is likely to happen at times if, as I understand it, he is going to solo the module), then the strategy of taking the expertise feats to bump spellcasting AC is a valid way of enabling that tactic. The OC is specifically built to allow this sort of variety in builds. If the OP wants to do things this way, he can certainly be very effective with it.

Modifié par MrZork, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yet you dont persuade me about spell penetration. You are right that I havent played it for a while. I played HotU recently but only first chapter (I played wiz/AA and did not havent seen any spell resilient creature).
So maybe there actually are creatures with high spell resistance in OC. But how many? Is it worth to spend two feats on one or two bossess that can be beaten other way (henchman, damage shields, spells ignoring SR)?

It's not even bosses that I'm thinking of, there are a decent chunk of enemies with some spell resist.  And a few of them are before he would have ready access to Breaches, which is why I suggested he get Spell Penetration early on.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Also, other possibility would be to take some combat related feats like rapid reload (for better handling crossbow), weapon focus (xbow or bow if elf), improved critical. Ranged weapons are very good choice for caster characters to deal with weaker enemies, luring enemies or to handle situations when the character is outa of spells. Also few xbows has a haste on them - not sure if they can be found in OC but definitely in HotU.

He'd be better off spamming a cantrip which he can get unlimited uses of.

MrZork wrote...

But, I can think of at least one chapter three opponent whose AB is right around 40 (and has significant spell resistance) and at least one other in the mid 30s. And, there are several right around AB 30 in chapter four. For sure, a high AC isn't by any means necessary in the OC for a mage to deal with these or any other opponents; they will all fall to other approaches. But, it's also not the case that typical mage AC is already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.

Actually, typical mage AC *is* already at the point where the marginal utility of more is zero.  Aka, typically so low that they're going to get hit a ton anyway.

In the OC's case, though, the overall level and magic level is low enough that mage AC might be 29ish in Chapter 3, assuming full buffs, compared to a shieldless plate wearer at about 36 (assuming no buffs) and a shield wearer with at least 42 AC.

So I guess it could theoretically help in this case.  They'd still get hit and have less hit points, but I guess they'd get hit less by those enemies, *assuming* he even remembers to use the ability.

MrZork wrote...

On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety.

Without buffs, that 29 AC would be 17, so 27 with Improved Expertise activated (+5 Shadow Shield, +4 Shield, +1 Mage Armor, +2 Cat's Grace).  Not sure how much measure of safety exists there.

MrZork wrote...

Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

And if it doesn't apply in the OC, it'll never apply anywhere with even something that might sorta maybe kinda resemble a challenge.

MrZork wrote...

 (Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.)

That's a full plate build.  In other words, it actually has enough base AC to make it worth using (Improved) Expertise.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 08 septembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...
...

Non-boss monsters with SR? Could you tell me which ones? There isnt definitely even one such monster in chapter 1 as Ive played chapter 1 recently. And I have really good memory, so I remeber my first OC experiences (in that time withoufh expansions) and Ive played sorcerrer, and I dont recall any monster that would resisted my spell.

At any rate I would say that the advantage of the spell penetration feats is on par with expertise. Its 100% not neccessary as the fights can be won without it. It might make few specific fights in whole OC easier, but thats it.

Also - as far as SR related, by default maximum SR that can non-monk NPC have is 32. Some high HD clerics might have more if they have the spell resistance spell, but I havent seen such NPC yet anywhere. Thus for pure caster (or almost pure, in 40lvl build 31CL is good enough), the spell resistance isnt problem at all and I would strongly advise not to take it - in the case of wizard that has plenty of feats it doesnt matter so much but sorcerer doesnt have so many feats to spare.

MagicalMaster wrote...
cantrips

since when are cantrips unlimited? you mean this rod of cold ray? The advantage of the ranged weapon (which spells dont offer) is that they have much higher attack range. You can attack from great distance so you will have more time to prepare to cast spell before this npc approach you. Also the henchman AI will automatically attack the npc you are attacking which doesnt happen with spells where you have to wait till the npc gets close enough to your henchman would see him.

Of course with 8starting dexterity it might be hard to hit anything later in game, but for zombies in 1chapter this is excellent way how to get as many of them as possible on one place in order to blast them with burning hands.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 09 septembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[MrZork]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
On a tactical level, it is handy to be able to hit the improved expertise hotkey and buff with some measure of safety.

Without buffs, that 29 AC would be 17, so 27 with Improved Expertise activated (+5 Shadow Shield, +4 Shield, +1 Mage Armor, +2 Cat's Grace). Not sure how much measure of safety exists there.

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.). The OP mentioned dex along with expertise, so, whether he chooses a decent starting dex or not, he's thinking enough about AC that he won't be ignoring the available gear. Obviously, the OP's mage can buff considerably to improve that, but he is gaining some safety going from low twenties to low thirties with improved expertise. Not against everyone, of course. There are bosses where the mage goes in buffed or he better kill that boss in a hurry if he plans on leaving alive. But, there are chapter three mob encounters where that initial +10 will be enough to get the first buff off (e.g. Shadow Shield or a DR spell) and then either get the rest up or decide to bail.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...
Just as a point of interest, the case you make against more AC can also be made against more damage-dealing power, using similar reasoning. What I mean is, if a character is at the point where he deals X damage per attack and that's more than enough to one-shot all of his opponents (either physically or with no-save spells or spells where the DC is so high that the save will only be made on a 20), then there is no added value in increasing kill power. I want to be clear: It doesn't apply in the OC, but the argument is pretty much the same.

And if it doesn't apply in the OC, it'll never apply anywhere with even something that might sorta maybe kinda resemble a challenge.

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses. That's +10, stacking, non-capped, non-dispellable, AC. And, once again, I am not arguing that the expertise build is the best possible use of the feats. I am just disagreeing with the idea that a mage in the OC will hit the point at which it doesn't matter if his defenses are better. If the OP wants to take expertise feats to help solo a wizard, he'll get value from them.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

(Though, it's worth mentioning that far better builders than I have put it to good use.)

That's a full plate build. In other words, it actually has enough base AC to make it worth using (Improved) Expertise.

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.

Modifié par MrZork, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Non-boss monsters with SR? Could you tell me which ones? There isnt definitely even one such monster in chapter 1 as Ive played chapter 1 recently. And I have really good memory, so I remeber my first OC experiences (in that time withoufh expansions) and Ive played sorcerrer, and I dont recall any monster that would resisted my spell.

More powerful undead often have it at a minimum.  In terms of Chapter 1, I'm mainly thinking of a particular encounter that would be *very* difficult to do solo, without a henchman/familar/summon, as a spellcaster going through for the first time.   It's a ritual of sorts.  PM me if you still don't know what I mean.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

At any rate I would say that the advantage of the spell penetration feats is on par with expertise. Its 100% not neccessary as the fights can be won without it. It might make few specific fights in whole OC easier, but thats it.

Also - as far as SR related, by default maximum SR that can non-monk NPC have is 32. Some high HD clerics might have more if they have the spell resistance spell, but I havent seen such NPC yet anywhere. Thus for pure caster (or almost pure, in 40lvl build 31CL is good enough), the spell resistance isnt problem at all and I would strongly advise not to take it - in the case of wizard that has plenty of feats it doesnt matter so much but sorcerer doesnt have so many feats to spare.

Except we're not talking about level 40 builds.

For example, default Balors and Balor Lords have 28 spell resistance.  If you're level 12 and run into one as a boss fight, enjoy having 75% of your spells resisted without using a Breach.  Even then, a Lesser Breach only changes that number to 60% of spells resisted.

Likewise, Skeleton Warriors and Skeleton Chieftains have 20 spell resistance.  They're like CR 7 or something, yet fighting one at level 7 would mean having 60% of your spells resisted and you don't have a Lesser Spell Breach to spare.

So in campaign builds, if you're new to playing a mage, I would *strongly* suggest you take Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration.

ShaDoOoW wrote...

since when are cantrips unlimited? you mean this rod of cold ray? The advantage of the ranged weapon (which spells dont offer) is that they have much higher attack range. You can attack from great distance so you will have more time to prepare to cast spell before this npc approach you. Also the henchman AI will automatically attack the npc you are attacking which doesnt happen with spells where you have to wait till the npc gets close enough to your henchman would see him.

Of course with 8starting dexterity it might be hard to hit anything later in game, but for zombies in 1chapter this is excellent way how to get as many of them as possible on one place in order to blast them with burning hands.

You're underestimating the range of Ray of Frost.  It's not as far as a max range crossbow shot, but it's pretty far.  In addition, it'll actually consistently deal 2.5 average damage per round, which is considerably more than crossbow shots with pitiful AB.  Weak zombies, for example, will die in 2-3 rays which you can use unlimited times per day.

MrZork wrote...

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.).

10 base
-1 dexterity
+1 tumble
+4 haste
+3 Armor AC

That's 17 with equipment, exluding any possible dexterity items.  Shield will overwrite Deflection, Shadow Shield will overwrite Natural, boots will be Boots of Speed likely.

MrZork wrote...

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses.

If the environment is balanced around full plate wearers with shields using (Improved) Expertise, then no, the mage really wouldn't get hit less.  At least, not unless he had like 14 starting dexterity and then maxed dexterity over constitution (assuming he could also max charisma).  Even then, he'd still be be close to 10 AC behind (assuming a +5 environment).

MrZork wrote...

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.

10 base AC
5 Shadow Shield
4 Shield
4 Boots of Speed
1 Tumble
3 Armor AC
1 Mage Armor

That's 28 AC, not counting Dexterity.  He'd have to have 24 Dexterity buffed to have 35 AC, and I really don't see how 39 AC is possible.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[MrZork]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

AC 17 in the OC? The equipment level in the OC makes it unlikely that the OP's mage will end up with an AC quite that low. Of course, if you are talking about AC without any equipment, then sure. But, by chapter three, there is plenty of equipment to be found and bought that will bring him over 20. (bracers for +armor, rings for +deflection, quest items for +dex, boots (e.g. hardiness) for +dodge, etc.).

10 base
-1 dexterity
+1 tumble
+4 haste
+3 Armor AC

That's 17 with equipment, exluding any possible dexterity items. Shield will overwrite Deflection, Shadow Shield will overwrite Natural, boots will be Boots of Speed likely.

10 base
+3 dex
+3/+5 bracers
+3/+5 cloak
+4 haste
+1 tumble
That's 24 with equipment one has from chapter 2 henchmen quests or can buy before starting any chapter 3 quests. 28 will soon be in reach with better drops (+5 rings and bracers drop in chapter 3 and one is a guaranteed quest reward) and it would be even better if the PC found a haste item besides boots (the hasted crossbows are ideal for mages, but they aren't common drops). BTW, the OP never said he was going to create this character with a dex penalty. Since he's shown no signs of min/maxing and has twice mentioned putting points into dex, I don't see 8 dex as a given.

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Sure, in almost any environment, dealing more damage is helpful. But, it's the same for mage AC. Almost any environment is one where +10 AC means the mage gets hit less, either by mobs or bosses.

If the environment is balanced around full plate wearers with shields using (Improved) Expertise, then no, the mage really wouldn't get hit less. At least, not unless he had like 14 starting dexterity and then maxed dexterity over constitution (assuming he could also max charisma). Even then, he'd still be be close to 10 AC behind (assuming a +5 environment).

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

A buffed mage in the chapter three of the OC can very likely have between 35 and 39 AC, depending on how lucky he's gotten with item drops and how many quests he's done. +10 from improved expertise puts him out of reach (excepting auto-20s) of many mobs and helps him against most bosses.

10 base AC
5 Shadow Shield
4 Shield
4 Boots of Speed
1 Tumble
3 Armor AC
1 Mage Armor

That's 28 AC, not counting Dexterity. He'd have to have 24 Dexterity buffed to have 35 AC, and I really don't see how 39 AC is possible.

10 base
+5 natural
+4 haste
+1 tumble
+3 armor
+4 deflection
+1 dodge
+5 dex
That's 33 with spells and +3 items, 36 with +5 drops on armor and deflection, and 39 if the player wears +3 boots of hardiness available at the base camp and casts haste instead of wearing boots of speed, or +37, as my very first NWN character going through the OC had in chapter 4 (that's my closest saved game), with dragon slippers to avoid KD.