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[Hello there friend]

Wow, that makes it look more doable than I'd come to expect. What do the typical attack bonuses look like for late game monsters?

In the end, though, I went with the constitution mage (S8 D8 Co14 W14 I16 Ch15). Fits better with the image I had of an intellectual who really has no business being in this warzone.

I expect to go for pretty much the feats MagicalMaster suggested in his/her initial post, except removing Toughness and Silent Spell for (Greater) Spell Focus: Enchantment. Because those look like some fun spells. I love crowd control in games, see.

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?

[MagicalMaster]

MrZork wrote...

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

No, the OC isn't balanced that way.  And no, most modules aren't like that because they try to cater to a lower denominator.  Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons I really don't like (Improved) Expertise.

But, cutting to the chase, given the confines of the OC that's not tuned around decent builds/correct equipment, Improved Expertise could certainly make him get hit less.  In an environment that's actually difficult, that's not true (or rather, the difference is so marginal that it's not worth two feats).  And frankly, I'd suggest he use Defensive Casting over (Improved) Expertise.

Hello there friend wrote...

Wow, that makes it look more doable than I'd come to expect. What do the typical attack bonuses look like for late game monsters?

Completely dependent on the module/persistent world.

Hello there friend wrote...

In the end, though, I went with the constitution mage (S8 D8 Co14 W14 I16 Ch15). Fits better with the image I had of an intellectual who really has no business being in this warzone.

And that's typically the better version of the mage as well.  Plan on getting hit and having enough HP to survive (plus have damage shields).

Hello there friend wrote...

I expect to go for pretty much the feats MagicalMaster suggested in his/her initial post, except removing Toughness and Silent Spell for (Greater) Spell Focus: Enchantment. Because those look like some fun spells. I love crowd control in games, see.

I doubt you'll ever use them, especially without a henchman/summon/familar.  Sorry, but the best CC is often Evocation (Bigby Hands and stuff like Great Thunderclap).

Hello there friend wrote...

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?

Defensive buffs and direct damage spells.  Combust, Fireball/Scin Sphere, Ice Storm, Firebrand/Cone of Cold, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting/Empowered IGMS, and Maximized IGMS for spell levels 2-9 respectively.  Can throw in Fingers of Death/Wail of the Banshee for instant kills if you'd like.

Critical defensive buffs are mainly...

Stoneskin/Premonition
Improved Invisibility
Shadow Shield

Mage Armor and Shield don't hurt along with stat buffs.  And during combat with melee foes Elemental Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath are amazing.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[MrZork]

MagicalMaster wrote...

MrZork wrote...

Do you think the OC is balanced that way? (And I honestly don't think most modules I have played have the typical mob at level 13-16 hitting a plate+tower wearer with +5 items and improved evasion.)

No, the OC isn't balanced that way. And no, most modules aren't like that because they try to cater to a lower denominator. Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons I really don't like (Improved) Expertise.

But, cutting to the chase, given the confines of the OC that's not tuned around decent builds/correct equipment, Improved Expertise could certainly make him get hit less. In an environment that's actually difficult, that's not true (or rather, the difference is so marginal that it's not worth two feats). And frankly, I'd suggest he use Defensive Casting over (Improved) Expertise.

I tend to agree. Although, I really think that balancing against lower AC than that one is generally a good way to build most SP modules. For an action PW focused on party play, it's a fair assumption that a group of PCs should have a decent AC build to soak some mob aggression. But, in SP, if mobs at that level are hitting a fairly AC-focused build, then it becomes an exercise in frustration (or a suicide run) for people not playing tanks. Given the limitations of the game AI (even with improvements like Tony K), henchmen won't be effective enough to get, say, a PC sorcerer or even a rogue through battles like that. The tendency would be to play the whole time in divide-and-conquer mode, or kiting, or trap-set-and-lure, or whatever, knowing that even a random group of mobs could take down the party. For many people, that mode of play will be too slow and it exacerbates the tedium associated with having to rest and rebuff often because of the need to creep slowly around each map while buffs run out.

Hello there friend wrote...

On another note: I'm not entirely opposed to using familiars and summons (and possibly henchmen if the feces really impacts with the air circulator), I'd just like to MOSTLY not. If I were to, though, what would be the best way of using them? Defensive buffs + strength and go? How much do you need to focus your spellbook on this way of playing?

MM gives good spell selection advice. However, I read your question a little differently. If you were more asking what spells to use to help when you play with a familiar, henchie, or summons, I would make special note of Greater Magic Weapon and Flame Weapon, in addition to Mage Armor, Improved Invisbility, Haste, and Stoneskin for buffing your associates. The first two spells really add to an associate's firepower and the latter improve their defenses. It's also worth remembering that (assuming you play in hard core mode) that your area-of-effect damage spells will usually damage your associates if they are caught in the spell. Firebrand will become a favorite because of this and I find Slow to be a useful enemies-only debuff when you or your associates are swarmed.

Also, if you play using Tony K's Henchman AI override, you can control your familiar and henchmen (but not summons) inventories in the OC (and other modules) and give them decent gear to use. Giving your buddies items with immunity to the types of damage you are throwing around (e.g. a necklace with 20/- electrical immunity if you care casting Scintillating Sphere, etc.) is a useful improvement made possible with that override.

You can also buff familiars, summons, and henchies with potions, which are readily available in the OC (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, and Barkskin are well worth keeping on hand for this purpose).

Modifié par MrZork, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[MagicalMaster]

MrZork wrote...

Given the limitations of the game AI (even with improvements like Tony K), henchmen won't be effective enough to get, say, a PC sorcerer or even a rogue through battles like that.

High level rogues tend to have some of the highest AC.  Just saying.  And no, by default (aka, without module changes), henchmen tend not to work very well.

MrZork wrote...

For many people, that mode of play will be too slow and it exacerbates the tedium associated with having to rest and rebuff often because of the need to creep slowly around each map while buffs run out.

Indeed.  Hence my hatred of (Improved) Expertise and the fact you can easily get AC gaps of over 20 in a d20 system.  Completely breaks it.

MrZork wrote...

MM gives good spell selection advice. However, I read your question a little differently.

I think you read it correctly, too.

MrZork wrote...

Firebrand will become a favorite because of this and I find Slow to be a useful enemies-only debuff when you or your associates are swarmed.

Yeah, Firebrand and IGMS will likely become your best friends.  No friendly fire.

[Empyre65]

You could also try the old stand-by, The Melee Mage.

[HipMaestro]

The bruise crew has pretty much already dissected this issue to death but I can still throw my 2 centavos in for consideration...

I am assuming a pure wizard caster build in the following comments...

First, your wiz will reach no higher than level 18 by Ch 4 end so plan your 3 (max) ability bumps and 10 (max) feat selections accordingly, regardless of what your preference ends up being.

Expertise.

Actually, pretty useful in early going when you are trying to survive with less than 10 HP and before recipro shields are available.  Not a necessary feat, but useful... and wizards get 3 bonus feats (per OC) to allow some diversification.  Once all the primo DR and concealment buffs are available, standing AC level loses much of its importance especially when your wizard erects those nasty recipro shields... which brings me to an attribute build point...

CON (stitution).

A high-CON recipro wiz WANTS to get hit (except by archers, of course).  There are a few beasties with resist/immunity to fire and/or acid but none to magic (ala Death Armor).  So you can easily kill by just standing there sucking down full heals or using lots of kits.  And there is no DevCrit in the OC, but there are some very high damage foes (like that scyther barb in Ch 1 that can hurt bad with a crit).  High CON also increases Fort saves, typically the bane of many caster types and influences Concentration checks via the modifier. For the reason of high CON preference (and a few other race advantages except for the lost feat from using non-human), gnome is a natural choice.  For a melee mage, it would be limited in weapon size, though.  Human would be my second choice for a caster.

Armor. 

Forget shield and armor with wiz.  Unless you are planning on playing this toon into epic levels for autostill, managing Still Spell levels is a royal PITA (IMHO) and some spells cannot be stilled anyway (though at the moment I cannot recall the exceptions).  If you decide to limit your casting only to pre-buffs without armor and then wands and scrolls in combat, equipping armor could work, I suppose.  Spellcasting would be seriously diluted with that strategy, however.

Encumberance.

Use module caches.  Store everything you can't specifically use at the moment in one of the many available storage containers provided (for example, I like the chest outside Eltoora's tower in Ch 1).  Just be sure to collect and/or sell excess loot before leaving the chapter.  But as far as determining the minimum STR demanded in the environment...

This decision comes down to either trying to optimize the build for power by keeping the STR at min (8, or 6 for gnome) and maximizing the primary ability (INT) or just deciding that convenience is more important than optimization and boost an intial ability level a bit at toon creation for handiness sake.  Perfectly viable either way.  I agree about exploiting the magic bags in the OC and I buy every one I can regardless of the weight reduction rating because gold is not an issue, at least not after Ch 1 is over.  Then keep trading up for better ones as the story proceeds. Besides, a wiz in the OC will not be lugging around heavy armor and shields anyway.  Spend the paltry fee req'd to transport back to the temple to unload the heavy loot if necessary.  Believe me. For a wiz that spends gold mainly for potions, scrolls and wands,  most loot will simply be redeemed at rthe nearest vendor.  Also, take note (if you haven't already, that is) that each point increase in STR will increase carrying capacity and does not rely on the modifier.  So those +1 STR gloves will work fine in a pinch and a Bull's Strength potion/scroll lasts 3 hours. By level 7 wiz, another trick is to polymorph into a troll or umber hulk temporarily to lug a load to an unload point.  The bottom line is: encumberance can be managed, even when capacity is very low.  Just beware of the dead magic zones which will neutralize any magic item property or spell boosts (not a factor in the OC, fortunately).

WIS (dom) & CHA (isma).

Collect items that bump these two abilities (like nymph cloak & periapt ammy) and equip them just before beginning any convo or applicable encounter.  Once again, it's a matter of power build optimization vs. convenience.

Skills:  Concentration (spell interruption & Fort saves) & Spellcraft (saves vs. spells).  Xclass to Tumble if AC is a problem for you.  Listen/Spot only if you multiclass to a class that gets it as a class skill.  Xclass a few points into Search for trap detection, especially at low char levels.  INT modifer will boost this value significantly.  There should be plenty of skill points for a wiz.

Feats:  In the OC, Spell Penetration seems more helpful and influential than a single Spell Focus but in later (epic) levels, it loses its value quickly.  Don't bother with any crafting feats, like Craft Wand, they can't be used in the plague campaign.  Typically, Extend Spell, Empower Spell (or Maximize Spell), Toughness are selected.  If you dede to melee and/or spennd a lot of time in within melee range, you'll want Blind Fight shoved in there somewhere.  Skill Focus: Concentration wouldn't hurt either, if you can spare a feat.

So my preference for a starting wiz for the OC would be a gnome with INT of 18, CON of 16 and place the remaining starting points however you like.  My surplus usually goes into Dex for reflex saves vs. traps & spells. All bumps to INT, in the OC, you will get 4 of them, (max). It really doesn't matter all that much.  Not in the cakewalk OC, anyway.  Just enjoy the learning, adventure and innate challenge and begin to improve your gaming technique for more difficult environments elsewhere.

All scalpels are welcome.