167 réponses à ce sujet

[Arius23]

The friendship/rivalry system is far superior to the good/evil or like/hate system in other RPGs, but it always annoyed me that you could see exactly what companions thought of you via a meter and the points you gained from every decision.

During my first playthrough, I often found myself reloading a recent save when I gained rivalry points because I wanted to be friends with everyone! (I didn't know at the time that you can still be friends/lovers with a companion who was also your rival).  I think hiding the meter and points would allow relationships with your companions to grow more naturally.  This would lead players to make more honest decisions instead of decisions based on how companions will react.

Instead of points, the companion could simply comment on your decisions, as they often did in DA2, which would indicate how much they approved or disapproved.  Their personality could change towards you overtime, indicating whether the companion and player are building a lasting friendship or not.  This all falls into the "show don't tell" aspect of storytelling.

I'm reluctant to simply say "make a toggle for it" knowing how much that makes game designers cry, lol. 

Does anyone else agree?

Modifié par Arius23, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Auintus]

When dealing with real people there are a million different tics that show how they feel. As a player, we lose that, so the meter is there to compensate. I would like it to remain.

[MichaelStuart]

I agree.
It would certainly help with my immersion if it was hidden.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[Anvos]

Maybe as an option but not a forced feature, personally I view to bars as replacing things lost in translation due to it being a video game character and not a real person. Normally you should be able to tell the basics if somebody likes you or hates you unless their passive aggressive or purposely trying to hide it in real life.

[Wulfram]

It would help immersion until this guy you like and thought you were getting along well with doesn't have much dialogue and then tries to kill you, and you have no way of working out why.

Adding a whole bunch of dialogue could substitute for it, but it would have to be a lot. And it would require the system working a lot more intuitively and coherently than it does in DA2

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 septembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Heimdall]

Having it optional would be nice.

[FaWa]

Make it an option.
This is in the same ballpark as "OMG THE COMPASS IN OBLIVION IS SO ANNOYING"
Not a problem when you can get rid of it...

[Fredward]

I would LOVE not being able to see the relationship meter. But in this case I also think that you shouldn't have to MAXIMIZE it either, just get it leaning strongly towards one direction. Ew I just said one direction. But anyway I also found myself painstakingly micromanaging everyone's mood meters, only taking some on this quest and some on that just to make sure it maxed in one way of the other.

[Nerdage]

Not really. If it were just removed I'd always be somewhat worried about missing approval thresholds in order to see the progression, enough so that I'd be thinking a lot more about min-maxing approval in the right direction than I am now.

Not that I think the +- slider system they use is the best one, but I don't think just hiding the slider makes it better.

That said, I have a habit of adding companion approval with the dev console early on and then just going for the conversations whenever I feel appropriate, which I suppose you could call "immersion breaking" too.

[Renmiri1]

I like the meter.. Don't like it, don't look at it

[Cutlass Jack]

Hiding the breath meter often adds to the immersion level of swimming in games. Literally.

[nightscrawl]

--- contains SPOILERS for the end of DA2 ---

Arius23 wrote...

The friendship/rivalry system is far superior to the good/evil or like/hate system in other RPGs, but it always annoyed me that you could see exactly what companions thought of you via a meter and the points you gained from every decision.

During my first playthrough, I often found myself reloading a recent save when I gained rivalry points because I wanted to be friends with everyone! (I didn't know at the time that you can still be friends/lovers with a companion who was also your rival).  I think hiding the meter and points would allow relationships with your companions to grow more naturally.  This would lead players to make more honest decisions instead of decisions based on how companions will react.

Instead of points, the companion could simply comment on your decisions, as they often did in DA2, which would indicate how much they approved or disapproved.  Their personality could change towards you overtime, indicating whether the companion and player are building a lasting friendship or not.  This all falls into the "show don't tell" aspect of storytelling.

I'm reluctant to simply say "make a toggle for it" knowing how much that makes game designers cry, lol. 

Does anyone else agree?

Here is the problem: we know that any given game has systems to deal with different events. Whether those systems are hidden to the player is a fine balance between providing the appropriate level of information to the player that also doesn't devolve into serious meta play or break immersion, and also doesn't cause frustration or confusion when events happen for no apparent reason. Two systems in DA2 that depended on clear signs being shown to the player, partially altered from DAO, were friend/rival and also the addition of the heart icons for the follower romances.

For friend/rival, tied to the romance, romance events were triggered when your companions hit a certain level of friendship or rivalry (Questioning Beliefs). If you had started flirting with a companion in Act 1, made certain choices that effectively kept your F/R with them at neutral (happens in some cases), you were never able to advance with them. If a meter had been hidden, you would have no idea why. Similarly, when it came to the final Big Choice where you choose between the mages and templars, the game goes through all of your companions and picks who will stay with you in the end based on your level of F/R with them, and whether or not you have completed their quests (seeing which is also dependent on F/R levels). So you may have companions who abandon you, and you may never know that it was preventable.

As far as the romances are concerned, the clear depiction of the heart icon in the conversations was a clear indication of your intentions to the NPC. Whether the NPC responds is up to them (Aveline does not), but the heart icon provides you with 100% certainty that you are pursuing a romance with said person. This is a contrast to DAO where people complained that Leliana "ninjamanced" them. While I never complained about it, I did experience this. As a woman myself, I responded to her as I would a close girl friend, and was surprised when she was eventually upset that I didn't want to be with her in a romantic way. I was extremely pleased by the inclusion of the heart icons in DA2.

(The merits of icons relating to romance specifically, RPing, realism, and so forth has been talked about in other threads. This is primarily about the display of information in the game.)

These are the kinds of issues the devs have to weigh when they decide how much information they are going to show us. In the end, this is a game. There is always going to be some form of UI that displays information to us, the players. How much is another thing entirely.

[Arius23]

nightscrawl wrote...

--- contains SPOILERS for the end of DA2 ---

Here is the problem: we know that any given game has systems to deal with different events. Whether those systems are hidden to the player is a fine balance between providing the appropriate level of information to the player that also doesn't devolve into serious meta play or break immersion, and also doesn't cause frustration or confusion when events happen for no apparent reason. Two systems in DA2 that depended on clear signs being shown to the player, partially altered from DAO, were friend/rival and also the addition of the heart icons for the follower romances.

For friend/rival, tied to the romance, romance events were triggered when your companions hit a certain level of friendship or rivalry (Questioning Beliefs). If you had started flirting with a companion in Act 1, made certain choices that effectively kept your F/R with them at neutral (happens in some cases), you were never able to advance with them. If a meter had been hidden, you would have no idea why. Similarly, when it came to the final Big Choice where you choose between the mages and templars, the game goes through all of your companions and picks who will stay with you in the end based on your level of F/R with them, and whether or not you have completed their quests (seeing which is also dependent on F/R levels). So you may have companions who abandon you, and you may never know that it was preventable.

As far as the romances are concerned, the clear depiction of the heart icon in the conversations was a clear indication of your intentions to the NPC. Whether the NPC responds is up to them (Aveline does not), but the heart icon provides you with 100% certainty that you are pursuing a romance with said person. This is a contrast to DAO where people complained that Leliana "ninjamanced" them. While I never complained about it, I did experience this. As a woman myself, I responded to her as I would a close girl friend, and was surprised when she was eventually upset that I didn't want to be with her in a romantic way. I was extremely pleased by the inclusion of the heart icons in DA2.

(The merits of icons relating to romance specifically, RPing, realism, and so forth has been talked about in other threads. This is primarily about the display of information in the game.)

These are the kinds of issues the devs have to weigh when they decide how much information they are going to show us. In the end, this is a game. There is always going to be some form of UI that displays information to us, the players. How much is another thing entirely.

I never liked that the Questioning Beliefs questlines or romances required Friendship or Rivalry to be a certain level to initiate.  Things like that should be initiated based on responses given during dialogue throughout the game.  

If the companions give frequent clues as to their disposition (e.g. voicing pleasure/displeasure at certain decisions or simply changing their demeanor towards the player in normal conversation), this should be enough to get the player to understand whether his/her decisions are in contrast to the companions'.  This should allow the companions' realtionships with the player to develop naturally since they will be responding to the player who will be motivated to make more honest decisions, instead of decisions based on whether it will cause friendship or rivalry points.

I don't know what the telemetry data is, but I'm assuming that many players only tried to get friendship points and reloaded and changed their decisions if rivalry points were obtained (at least during the first playthrough).  Maybe I'm wrong, I'd be interested to see what the statistics on something like that are.

[Nomen Mendax]

Auintus wrote...

When dealing with real people there are a million different tics that show how they feel. As a player, we lose that, so the meter is there to compensate. I would like it to remain.

Agreed.  In addition, I don't like hidden game mechanisms and would much rather be able to see the results of my interactions with NPCs.  The other problem I would have with not having some kind of meter is that quite often I will come back to a game after not playing it for a while so its nice to have feedback like meters to remind myself of what is going on.

I think there are better ways to deter meta-gaming than by hiding information.  For a start I'd like to see the reputation results of the PCs actions affect all the comparisons rather than just the ones you happen to (or carefully choose to) take with you when you accept quest rewards.

[Anvos]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Hiding the breath meter often adds to the immersion level of swimming in games. Literally.

Now that's just silly, any sane person should be able to tell if their starting to run out of air.

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Auintus wrote...

When dealing with real people there are a million different tics that show how they feel. As a player, we lose that, so the meter is there to compensate. I would like it to remain.

Agreed. In addition, I don't like hidden game mechanisms and would much rather be able to see the results of my interactions with NPCs. The other problem I would have with not having some kind of meter is that quite often I will come back to a game after not playing it for a while so its nice to have feedback like meters to remind myself of what is going on.

I think there are better ways to deter meta-gaming than by hiding information. For a start I'd like to see the reputation results of the PCs actions affect all the comparisons rather than just the ones you happen to (or carefully choose to) take with you when you accept quest rewards.

I do support the notion of making companion affection/relationship gains or loses be taken into account regardless of if you drag them along.

Modifié par Anvos, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Definately remove the meter.
There are so many and easy ways one can show approval/dissproval. The "tics" as one said, can still be there. We DO have tone of voice and facial animations. Those should be more than enough.

The party member can voice his displeasure out loud or simply scowl. And yes, not seeing the meter feels far more natural, as you keep track in your head just how many times you pissed Joe off.

[caradoc2000]

Quite the opposite, I would prefer if real-life people had relationship meters. It would make interaction so much easier.

[Cultist]

Absolutely agree. Remove it.

[Nomen Mendax]

I'm playing DA2 now and I'd say that the majority of the time NPCs do not comment when you gain or lose reputation with them, so we would need a lot more feedback than currently exists for it to be viable to lose the relationship meter.  

If this thread is anything to go by then this something that there clearly isn't a right answer to, some people find the meter immersion breaking and others (including me) find that it provides useful game information, so I'd echo the OP's desire for a toggle as the way to go.

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

[brushyourteeth]

If the depth of writing and amount of dialogue are sufficient to let you actually have a pretty good idea where you are in your relationship with your companions, I'd love to have the meter hidden. If it's like DAII where half the time you get the same dialogue back if you say something your companion isn't fond of as you do when they agree, or you only have 2-3 conversations that actually address/advance a romance, that sounds like it'd be a big ol' mess.

As a side note though, David Gaider's said that they're moving back to approval/disapproval for DAIII. So that should be a little easier to track, although I agree that it doesn't address the different depths involved in a relationship quite as well. Friendship/Rivalry never quite hit the mark for me either, because it would have been nice to agree with someone while expressing that you dislike them personally.

[R2s Muse]

My question is how is this different from having an explicit flirt icon? I thought the general feeling was that most players wanted to know what they were getting themselves into, romance-wise, without getting blind sided. Doesn't the approval meter essentially do the same thing? Also, thinking back to all the potential bugs and frustrations of not knowing WHY -- dammit why!?! won't Fenris love me? -- having some quantitative flags probably helps.

All that said, I agree. I've been trying this playthrough to be more natural and not reload or stack my party to max out approvals, just to see where I stand at the end, and I find it tough not to care.

[sylvanaerie]

Arius23 wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

--- contains SPOILERS for the end of DA2 ---

Here is the problem: we know that any given game has systems to deal with different events. Whether those systems are hidden to the player is a fine balance between providing the appropriate level of information to the player that also doesn't devolve into serious meta play or break immersion, and also doesn't cause frustration or confusion when events happen for no apparent reason. Two systems in DA2 that depended on clear signs being shown to the player, partially altered from DAO, were friend/rival and also the addition of the heart icons for the follower romances.

For friend/rival, tied to the romance, romance events were triggered when your companions hit a certain level of friendship or rivalry (Questioning Beliefs). If you had started flirting with a companion in Act 1, made certain choices that effectively kept your F/R with them at neutral (happens in some cases), you were never able to advance with them. If a meter had been hidden, you would have no idea why. Similarly, when it came to the final Big Choice where you choose between the mages and templars, the game goes through all of your companions and picks who will stay with you in the end based on your level of F/R with them, and whether or not you have completed their quests (seeing which is also dependent on F/R levels). So you may have companions who abandon you, and you may never know that it was preventable.

As far as the romances are concerned, the clear depiction of the heart icon in the conversations was a clear indication of your intentions to the NPC. Whether the NPC responds is up to them (Aveline does not), but the heart icon provides you with 100% certainty that you are pursuing a romance with said person. This is a contrast to DAO where people complained that Leliana "ninjamanced" them. While I never complained about it, I did experience this. As a woman myself, I responded to her as I would a close girl friend, and was surprised when she was eventually upset that I didn't want to be with her in a romantic way. I was extremely pleased by the inclusion of the heart icons in DA2.

(The merits of icons relating to romance specifically, RPing, realism, and so forth has been talked about in other threads. This is primarily about the display of information in the game.)

These are the kinds of issues the devs have to weigh when they decide how much information they are going to show us. In the end, this is a game. There is always going to be some form of UI that displays information to us, the players. How much is another thing entirely.

I never liked that the Questioning Beliefs questlines or romances required Friendship or Rivalry to be a certain level to initiate.  Things like that should be initiated based on responses given during dialogue throughout the game.  

If the companions give frequent clues as to their disposition (e.g. voicing pleasure/displeasure at certain decisions or simply changing their demeanor towards the player in normal conversation), this should be enough to get the player to understand whether his/her decisions are in contrast to the companions'.  This should allow the companions' realtionships with the player to develop naturally since they will be responding to the player who will be motivated to make more honest decisions, instead of decisions based on whether it will cause friendship or rivalry points.

I don't know what the telemetry data is, but I'm assuming that many players only tried to get friendship points and reloaded and changed their decisions if rivalry points were obtained (at least during the first playthrough).  Maybe I'm wrong, I'd be interested to see what the statistics on something like that are.

My first playthrough was completely blind, and whenever something happened I didn't intend or want, I just kept it, and rolled with it, regardless.  No reloads.  Needless to say I was down a few companions at the end of the game!  After that I used my strategy guide, tried getting some companions to rivalry (instead of friendship) and explored a lot more of the game.  I like having the meters, as it keeps me from keeping some companions with me when I don't like them.  For instance, I don't like Anders, I only take him on quests that improve his friendship/rivalry or if he has something interesting to contribute to conversations, and pretty much leave him parked in his clinic for 95% of the game.  Without the meter, I'd either just not bring him at all or would be forced to have him with me constantly, wondering if I had his *unseen* meter high enough.

Perhaps having the meter, but include something that allows those who wish to hide it would be a workable solution.  Those who don't want to see what the approval gained is, when hiding the meter also hides the "Anders gains +5 approval" or something.

[SerTabris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Definately remove the meter.
There are so many and easy ways one can show approval/dissproval. The "tics" as one said, can still be there. We DO have tone of voice and facial animations. Those should be more than enough.

The party member can voice his displeasure out loud or simply scowl. And yes, not seeing the meter feels far more natural, as you keep track in your head just how many times you pissed Joe off.

They might be enough for some people, but I'm pretty terrible with that sort of thing. I couldn't really quantify how strong each disapproval is, how it balances against other actions, and so on. And sometimes you don't hear from the companion about what you did at the time at all. I prefer knowing what the game is doing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Being able to disable it (just as we can disable plot helpers) would be pretty cool.

[Rawgrim]

I think it would help with the immersion.