167 réponses à ce sujet

[Arius23]

 

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

If they added some animations to show that the enemy was wounded or near death then sure.  My point about taking the relationship meter out is I think it would be more immersive if we could only guage how other characters felt about us based on their reactions to certain decisions or everyday demeanor towards the player.

brushyourteeth wrote...
As a side note though, David Gaider's said that they're moving back to approval/disapproval for DAIII.

Can you link to where he said that?  I thought the friendship/rivalry system was way better.

[brushyourteeth]

Arius23 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
As a side note though, David Gaider's said that they're moving back to approval/disapproval for DAIII.

Can you link to where he said that?  I thought the friendship/rivalry system was way better.

I wish I could. Honestly, it was in response to something I said on the forums months ago and I should have saved it at the time. Apologies. Won't feel bad if you take a "wait and see" on it, though - it's not entirely fair for me to expect others to accept my word as gospel, plus "things change" and all. 

He basically said people seemed to still feel like the rivalry path as a punishment and not a valid way to maintain a relationship, and that the approval/disapproval system seemed to be much simpler and more suited to where they're taking the next game.

[Nomen Mendax]

Arius23 wrote...

 

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

If they added some animations to show that the enemy was wounded or near death then sure.  My point about taking the relationship meter out is I think it would be more immersive if we could only guage how other characters felt about us based on their reactions to certain decisions or everyday demeanor towards the player.

When I play RPGs I like to know what effect my actions are having, not just in terms of the fiction (Bob thinks I'm a jerk because I kicked his cat) but also in terms of the game rules (I get -10 to my reputation with Bob).  So I don't like game effects to be hidden (like the DA2 system of deciding things based on your conversation choices without giving you feedback).  So, for me, getting rid of the reputation meter would be a bad thing, but as we've already said a toggle would kepp us both happy.  Although, just like you alluded to with combat, I think they would have to give you much more feedback than they currently do before getting rid of the meter.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

As long as we don't lose the information about how much damage we've done, yes, I would.

I don't see why we should know how many hit points our opponents have.  But we should know how well we've struck something with our sword.

I would like the game not to conceal the mechanics of hit and damage calculations, but I would turn off enemy health bars if I were given the option.

Also, I don't like having UI elements floating in my view of the game world.  I like UI elements to stay out of the way - a frame is a good place for them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[MichaelStuart]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

I would be happy to get rid of health bars.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[Anvos]

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

Just no to this, Fable 3 already proved this is a bad idea in an rpg.  There is still a hp bar there wether you can see it or not.  The hp bar not being visble just makes it harder to tell when to use potions and certain abilties is and is even worse when you have to keep track of 3 other characters that might not even be on your screen.  Not to mention abilities like aura of pain would become a world harder to use if you can't watch your hp.

Not to mention I'm fairly sure that most games already agree that if that is gonna be a feature disabling health bars and such is optional.

Modifié par Anvos, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

brushyourteeth wrote...
He basically said people seemed to still feel like the rivalry path as a punishment and not a valid way to maintain a relationship, and that the approval/disapproval system seemed to be much simpler and more suited to where they're taking the next game.

That's because they labaeled, explained and designed it horribly.
Rivalry is RED. It's icon is RED. It's described in the manual as something bad.

It's completely and utterlay BioWares frak-up in presentation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Anvos wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

Just no to this, Fable 3 already proved this is a bad idea in an rpg.  There is still a hp bar there wether you can see it or not.  The hp bar not being visble just makes it harder to tell when to use potions and certain abilties is and is even worse when you have to keep track of 3 other characters that might not even be on your screen.  Not to mention abilities like aura of pain would become a world harder to use if you can't watch your hp.

Not to mention I'm fairly sure that most games already agree that if that is gonna be a feature disabling health bars and such is optional.

AHEM. Pay attention to the bolded bit.

[Plaintiff]

I would not like this. I don't like being denied information.

[fchopin]

No but hiding the silly icons would.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You're not being deined information.
They aren' t just showed in your face. You do know if someone approves or dissaproves and roughly how much.
But just like in real life, it isn't compeltely obvious.

[TheJediSaint]

I think there needs to be some kind of feedback provided to the players when it comes to the approval of their companions. A meter is a simple and intuitive way to do this. I suppose there could be alternative ways for the players to find out what their companions think of them. Perhaps their appearance shifts depending where they are on the Friendship/Rivalry scale, for example.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

That's the beauty of it. It's not alwlays apaprent what others think of you. Neither it should be. It cheapens human interactions.

You SHOULD pay attention to how those close to you act.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're not being deined information.
They aren' t just showed in your face. You do know if someone approves or dissaproves and roughly how much.
But just like in real life, it isn't compeltely obvious.

I know no such thing. The characters do not give their input in every single scenario. Their facial expressions are not always visible. Exactly what cues am I supposed to be looking for in those situations? I'm being denied information.

Even if their faces were visible, exactly what the hell am I supposed to be looking for? Only the most obvious facial expressions are visible on the characters. Unless the game is going to use motion capture technology like L.A. Noire (which even then required a lot of guesswork on the part of the player), this option is not remotely feasible.

I don't want it be more like real life. I don't give a crap about "immersion". If I wanted my games to be like real life, I would never have bought Dragon Age to begin with.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 septembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Why? I don't see the point.

[brushyourteeth]

TheJediSaint wrote...

I think there needs to be some kind of feedback provided to the players when it comes to the approval of their companions. A meter is a simple and intuitive way to do this. I suppose there could be alternative ways for the players to find out what their companions think of them. Perhaps their appearance shifts depending where they are on the Friendship/Rivalry scale, for example.

I really enjoyed in DA:O how our companions would respond to us differently when we engaged them in conversation based on where we were with them on the approval bar. Or even clicking back and forth between taking control of the companions. Alistair's "Need something?" was obviously less intimate than his "At your service!" and Morrigan's giggle indicated that she liked you much better than if you talked to her and she just made that sound like she was disgusted to be talking to you.

But for that to work again, we'd have to be able to speak to our companions whenever we wanted, and I'm not sure if that's going to happen. Still, I thought it was a great concept.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're not being deined information.
They aren' t just showed in your face. You do know if someone approves or dissaproves and roughly how much.
But just like in real life, it isn't compeltely obvious.

I know no such thing. The characters do not give their input in every single scenario. Their facial expressions are not always visible. Exactly what cues am I supposed to be looking for in those situations? I'm being denied information.

What do you mean you don't see their facial expression? The camera pans to the one talking in cutscenes. Then you have the tone of voice (which in itself tells much). Plenty of old school games didn't have facial animations, and the character didn't lack any character. Ever seen Irenicuses facial expressions? Nope.

I don't want it be more like real life. I don't give a crap about "immersion". If I wanted my games to be like real life, I would never have bought Dragon Age to begin with.

Well I do. You don't give a crap about immersion, and I don't give a crap about what you want.

*I* want it to be closer to real life. I like to be faced with some of the challenges it provides.
I don't want health bars for enemies (how the hell is the Warden suposed to know that?) Something like "wounded/badly wounded/near death" would be much better.
I don't want to know exactly down to the last digit how a NPC feels about me. What, is the Warden psychic and can now read minds?

Ever had a friend that keeps annoying you and you'd  want nothing more than to puch him out, but you hold yourself back and smile anyway? Well, you can't really have that with a visible bar.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

No, but they should hide the meter anyway just to see the people complain about ninjamancing.

[Nomen Mendax]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
He basically said people seemed to still feel like the rivalry path as a punishment and not a valid way to maintain a relationship, and that the approval/disapproval system seemed to be much simpler and more suited to where they're taking the next game.

That's because they labaeled, explained and designed it horribly.
Rivalry is RED. It's icon is RED. It's described in the manual as something bad.

It's completely and utterlay BioWares frak-up in presentation.

It's also really unclear what they mean by rivalry anyway.  Because of this thread I went back and read the manual (*gasp*) and honestly I don't see the difference between rivalry and disapproval.  The game tends to support this since you get rivalry points for saying or doing things that the NPC would disapprove of.

I also totally agree that if you want a player to think a number represents something good (or at least OK) then don't make the number big and red!

[Nomen Mendax]

CrustyBot wrote...

No, but they should hide the meter anyway just to
see the people complain about ninjamancing.

And get rid of the heart icon and make the paraphrasing even more ambiguous ...

Hawke (paraphrase) -- Nice day

Hawke (spoken line) --- I love you, ravish me now you steaming hunk of pirate/apostate/chest-haired/blood-mage/weird-glowing-tatooed gorgeousness

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 07 septembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
He basically said people seemed to still feel like the rivalry path as a punishment and not a valid way to maintain a relationship, and that the approval/disapproval system seemed to be much simpler and more suited to where they're taking the next game.

That's because they labaeled, explained and designed it horribly.
Rivalry is RED. It's icon is RED. It's described in the manual as something bad.

It's completely and utterlay BioWares frak-up in presentation.

It's also really unclear what they mean by rivalry anyway.  Because of this thread I went back and read the manual (*gasp*) and honestly I don't see the difference between rivalry and disapproval.  The game tends to support this since you get rivalry points for saying or doing things that the NPC would disapprove of.

I also totally agree that if you want a player to think a number represents something good (or at least OK) then don't make the number big and red!

Yeah, anyone who has real life rivalry-ish friendships (I know I do) knows that your friend shouldn't walk away seething if that's what you really have - they ought to clap you on the shoulder and say "Hawke, you're insane, but you're a good friend to have." Varric silently scoring me down every time I'm not sarcastic didn't feel like an interesting facet to our relationship - it felt like I was starting down the road toward a breakup.

Really though, while this is an interesting topic, we all know "user friendly" is the way the wind's blowing. Things are going to get simpler, not more complex, so hiding the approval bar would probably never happen. I really wouldn't even be too shocked to pick up DAIII and see that the dialogue choices have "Diplomatic icon. Companion A approves +10, Companion B disapproves -5" before you even select said dialogue. Sadly.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

No, but they should hide the meter anyway just to
see the people complain about ninjamancing.

And get rid of the heart icon and make the paraphrasing even more ambiguous ...

Hawke (paraphrase) -- Nice day

Hawke (spoken line) --- I love you, ravish me now you steaming hunk of pirate/apostate/chest-haired/blood-mage/weird-glowing-tatooed gorgeousness

Well, you couldn't say BioWare would be abandoning the fanbase if they did that.

[Cutlass Jack]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Out of curiosity, would those of you who don't want to see the relationship meter also be happy getting rid of enemies health bars?

Well on both those things, I have no problem removing meters as long as there's an alternative way to gain an indication.

For example, I've got no problem removing enemy health bars, if (and big if) the game engine is capable of having the damage on an enemy be visible. As in cuts, burns, etc., and they start animating worse as they get more injuries. You won't need a damage meter if your enemy is limping and bleeding all over the place.

Removing relationship meters is fine if (and a bigger if) the dialogue and tone of those companions starts getting progressively better/worse based on how much they currently like you. But that would require far more dialogue and sound files to pull off decently (at minimum).

In both those cases its a lot of work and possibly engine intensive to do well. A meter is alot simpler.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

I know no such thing. The characters do not give their input in every single scenario. Their facial expressions are not always visible. Exactly what cues am I supposed to be looking for in those situations? I'm being denied information.

You're being denied metagame information to which your character shouldn't have access anyway.

Regardless, I think the bar should be optional, not non-existant.