167 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

nightscrawl wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actially, I'd say that sometimes that is exactly what would/should happen.
when you're trying to save someone from themselves, they usually dont take it well. At least not at first.

Or ever.  I can't imagine ever thinking that was okay.

Oh I don't know... Imagine you do an intervention for someone who is an addict, or harming themselves in some way. If they get better, they very well might thank you for it later on. In a way, this sort of happens if you do a rival with Merrill. She (depending on choices) eventually realizes that you were trying to help her all along.

I saw my best friend's boyfriend beat up his mother and suggested she break up with him. She got married to the guy and ended our friendship instead. 

That kind of stuff happens. What should have been +20 rivalry in a conversation sometimes just ends up being -100 disapproval and an exit from the party. People are complex like that.

Hawke, to me, didn't always sound like she was coming from a place of love when she (I) chose rivalry responses, though. It often ended up being more like "You're creepy and possessed." or "So you were a slave - get over it." or "You're a blood mage and it's disgusting."

Poor implementation of the idea on the writers' part, in my opinion.

Still, having someone like Morrigan hate you just because you disagreed with her felt equally as shallow. So here's hoping for some positive relationship changes in DAIII!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 09 septembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[brushyourteeth]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Problem though is that the cheese wheel will stay with some tinkering done on it as was said by BW...

I would love to have more influence and that has been said that would be made possible too..wondering about how they can pull it of accordingly so the PC will say and act like you want him to .

Bahahaha - cheese wheel. 

Maker, I hate that thing.

I think a lot of it boils down to the writing and programming process and how it works together. I mean, do they sit around and say "uhh. writers, write me a sarcastic response!" and then fill it into the "cheese wheel" accordingly? How does that put together a cohesive storyline? Or do they take the pre-written lines and try to force them into one of those categories, even if it doesn't exactly fit? And then, do the eventually say "This is a mean response, but we already have too many of those, so let's label it the blunt response. Nobody will ever know the difference."?

Because I definitely noticed a difference. There was definitely a disconnect in the implementation somewhere.

Don't get me wrong - I love BW's writing, but the wheel didn't cut it in DAII. The paraphrases have always been off (even in ME) and even if you just left the paraphrase out and chose only an icon or intent button, I still wouldn't trust the protagonist to pull off my idea of that intended emotion.

Wow. I really make it sound hopeless. Somebody talk me out of this dialogue pessimism, please. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

nightscrawl wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actially, I'd say that sometimes that is exactly what would/should happen.
when you're trying to save someone from themselves, they usually dont take it well. At least not at first.

Or ever.  I can't imagine ever thinking that was okay.

Oh I don't know... Imagine you do an intervention for someone who is an addict, or harming themselves in some way. If they get better, they very well might thank you for it later on.

It is the height of arrogance to suggest that you ever know other people's best interests better than they do.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[labargegrrrl]

i like the idea of it being optional. not because i didn't like it (i loved being able to status-check my companion inclinations in both games), but because the immersion junkies really seem to need little touches like that for a better experience. and i might find it interesting to try out myself.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It is the height of arrogance to suggest that you ever know other people's best interests better than they do.

So... parents don't know more about life than their children and can't or shouldn't make decisions for them? Or perhaps abused children should never be removed from their parents? There is even a legal system designed to appoint someone to look out for an individual's best interest, the guardian ad litem (usually children, but sometimes the elderly as well).

Are you actually suggesting that letting your partner or friend be an addict, not only harming themselves but the people around them as well, is in their best interest? It's one thing to moralize and philosophize and say statements like that, but I'm talking about real situations, where real lives are destroyed.

I take it you prefer the "school of hard knocks" and "tough love" kind of thing? You would go to such extreme lengths with that ideology that you would let the person destroy themselves, and hope they eventually take the hint?

[nightscrawl]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Hawke, to me, didn't always sound like she was coming from a place of love when she (I) chose rivalry responses, though. It often ended up being more like "You're creepy and possessed." or "So you were a slave - get over it." or "You're a blood mage and it's disgusting."

That's why I said "depending on choices." If you've played the game enough times as I have, you know how to craft the relationship for it to go exactly the way you want it to. Friend or rival, romance or non-romance, quest dialogue responses, gift responses, during and post-fade responses. There are a lot of opportunities for points that don't involve you being an a-hole.

As far as "you're creepy and possessed" goes, I usually play rival Anders, non-romance, and it comes off more as a lack of control issue, which is something that greatly bothers me in real life and I project onto my characters. I happen to think that rival Anders Act 3 Questioning Beliefs is one of the best scenes in the entire game, certainly his best scene. Similarly, Fenris can be impulsive, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as Anders's control issue. I trust Fenris. I do not trust Anders.

I'll add though that I'm only able to play how I want with all of the followers because I severely metagame with all of them, which is far from realistic, ideal, or how the devs designed the game to be played. And to link this back to the original topic, whether there is a visible meter or not, there will always be guides and breakdowns of conversations to craft a game toward your goals. It may take a while for you to see the real result of any given conversation choice but it will happen, people will put two and two together to make four on forums and websites like DAwiki, and you will still be able to pick your path.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 09 septembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

nightscrawl wrote...

So... parents don't know more about life than their children and can't or shouldn't make decisions for them? Or perhaps abused children should never be removed from their parents? There is even a legal system designed to appoint someone to look out for an individual's best interest, the guardian ad litem (usually children, but sometimes the elderly as well).

Why are we bringing children into this?  No one is claiming that children are fully formed persons..

Are you actually suggesting that letting your partner or friend be an addict, not only harming themselves but the people around them as well, is in their best interest? It's one thing to moralize and philosophize and say statements like that, but I'm talking about real situations, where real lives are destroyed.

You're incorrectly assuming an excluded middle.  I don't know other people's best interest.  No one other than you can ever know your best interests.  But by claiming that I don't know their best interests I am not also claiming that they always do.  As such, you're chasing the wrong target by trying to point out examples where someone is apparently acting contrary to his own interests.

I take it you prefer the "school of hard knocks" and "tough love" kind of thing? You would go to such extreme lengths with that ideology that you would let the person destroy themselves, and hope they eventually take the hint?

And here you're still assuming that you know what other people's best interests are.  What hint do they need to take?

Your best interests are informed by your beliefs, values, and goals.  Remember the Heaven's Gate cult?  They committed mass suicide in order to reach some sort of extraterrestrial saviour.  I would argue that they acted in their own best interests.  Given their belief in an extraterrestrial saviour, and given their belief that the way to reach that saviour was death, and further given their desire to reach that saviour, there's no way to frame their actions in less than positive terms.

That you wouldn't want the same to happen to you doesn't mean that other people don't want it to happen to them.  You're being misled buy your empathy.  Your empathy, which is merely a projection of your own feelings onto others, is telling you that those people don't want to be behaving as they do.  What?  How is that possible?  If they don't want to behave that way, why are they doing it?  Your position requires a rejection of free will, and that opens a much bigger metaphysical can of worms.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nightscrawl wrote...

I'll add though that I'm only able to play how I want with all of the followers because I severely metagame with all of them, which is far from realistic, ideal, or how the devs designed the game to be played. And to link this back to the original topic, whether there is a visible meter or not, there will always be guides and breakdowns of conversations to craft a game toward your goals. It may take a while for you to see the real result of any given conversation choice but it will happen, people will put two and two together to make four on forums and websites like DAwiki, and you will still be able to pick your path.

I would rather, though, that those metagame tools were optional, and not something displayed to us involntarily within the game's UI.

BioWare is already letting us hide some metagame information: we can disable plot helpers.  They should let us disable the relationship meter as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
And here you're still assuming that you know what other people's best interests are.  What hint do they need to take?

Your best interests are informed by your beliefs, values, and goals.  Remember the Heaven's Gate cult?  They committed mass suicide in order to reach some sort of extraterrestrial saviour.  I would argue that they acted in their own best interests.  Given their belief in an extraterrestrial saviour, and given their belief that the way to reach that saviour was death, and further given their desire to reach that saviour, there's no way to frame their actions in less than positive terms.

That you wouldn't want the same to happen to you doesn't mean that other people don't want it to happen to them.  You're being misled buy your empathy.  Your empathy, which is merely a projection of your own feelings onto others, is telling you that those people don't want to be behaving as they do.  What?  How is that possible?  If they don't want to behave that way, why are they doing it?  Your position requires a rejection of free will, and that opens a much bigger metaphysical can of worms.

Really? You're using that silly line of reasoning?

People make mistakes. And sometimes you can see them making a mistake from a mile away. They don't. The reasons why can vary - they can be misinformed, mislead, they can be too obsessed to properly evaluate the situation or their chancess of sucess, etc, etc...

Point is, if you care abotu someone you will try to protect them from making such mistakes. You will try to stop them from throwing away their lives or doing something they will later regret.

Yes, they might act out of their convictions - but then again so do you.

***

Personally I want the PC to only have acess to information he should logicly have.
As the PC can't read minds, he can only judge how much others like him based on their reactions. Note that he cannot be sure of the sincerity of those reactions.

[Morty Smith]

If the system was hidden, I would apreciate more than a binary outcome for the "romance" ingame.

I call this, the SMALZ-meter ™

(25 SMALZ) - I need you as a friend.

(50 SMALZ) - thanks for all the help, what would I do without you. (KISS)

(75 SMALZ) - thanks, it´s hot in here. Why do you wear a mask? ... (Jingles)

(100 SMALZ) - I´ll die by your side. (All of the above + hastly put together "just-married" slide-show at the end)

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really? You're using that silly line of reasoning?

People make mistakes. And sometimes you can see them making a mistake from a mile away. They don't. The reasons why can vary - they can be misinformed, mislead, they can be too obsessed to properly evaluate the situation or their chancess of sucess, etc, etc...

Point is, if you care abotu someone you will try to protect them from making such mistakes. You will try to stop them from throwing away their lives or doing something they will later regret.

If you care about someone, you'll respect their judgment.

Personally I want the PC to only have acess to information he should logicly have.
As the PC can't read minds, he can only judge how much others like him based on their reactions. Note that he cannot be sure of the sincerity of those reactions.

Exactly.  Now, that doesn't mean that ther players can't have extra information that the PC shouldn't have, but that information shouldn't be forced on everyone.

Ideally, I'd like to disable plot helpers, the relationship meter, the journal categories - anything that gives the narrative structure where that structure should only be visible to the PC after the fact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you care about someone, you'll respect their judgment.

Up to a point.
I care more about the persons well-being than their respect for me.

And just because I care about someone, doesn't mean they are right.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you care about someone, you'll respect their judgment.

Up to a point.
I care more about the persons well-being than their respect for me.

It's more about your respect for them.  They are better judges of their own well-being than you are.

And just because I care about someone, doesn't mean they are right.

But it should mean that you'll trust them.  After all, if you don't trust them to act, why do you care about them?

[esper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If you care about someone, you'll respect their judgment.

Up to a point.
I care more about the persons well-being than their respect for me.

And just because I care about someone, doesn't mean they are right.

It doesn't have to mean that they are right. It is arrogant to simply think that you know better.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't or shouldn't try to warn them or tell them that you are worried or even help, but at no point are whoever you are helping obliged to be thankfull or respect you for giving that help, because you are medling in their life and potentially changing it. And even if it is objectively (as objectively as it can be for such a subject) for the better, they do not have to like that change.

Some people simply prefer to be miserable.

But back to the relantionship meter. I personally could se two meters one for respect and one for affection that would give four combinations, but still not be too complex and most players should be able to manage that. 

[Morty Smith]

You are derailing the topic, please keep the argument about the topic.

Now rest your hands on the wheel, slowly.

Modifié par Kroitz, 10 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you care about someone, you'll respect their judgment.

Up to a point.
I care more about the persons well-being than their respect for me.

It's more about your respect for them.  They are better judges of their own well-being than you are.

Does that mean if you mother decides to stick her finger in the electric outlet, you will respect her judgemnt and not warn her?

Seriously.

You often have soem good points in discussions..but this? Dammit man. This is so damn idiotic that I cannot help but think someone hihjacked your account.

And just because I care about someone, doesn't mean they are right.

But it should mean that you'll trust them.  After all, if you don't trust them to act, why do you care about them?

Strawman. I care because I do. Love has no contractual conditions.
And I trust them...most of the time at least.
Love and care do not mean blind trust.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BioWare is already letting us hide some metagame information: we can disable plot helpers.  They should let us disable the relationship meter as well.

I don't think they like having a toggle or option for everything though. Going in that direction leads people to asking for things like a checkbox for sexual preference or something like that.

At some point, we have to allow Bioware to make their own decision, whether we agree with it or not, to design a game component the way they want, and not let us have options for everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

esper wrote...
It doesn't have to mean that they are right. It is arrogant to simply think that you know better.

By that logic, isn't it arrogant to think that you know better than me?

The world runs on arrogance to a degree.
Unless you are sure of yourself and your convictions, you wont' get anything done.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't or shouldn't try to warn them or tell them that you are worried or even help, but at no point are whoever you are helping obliged to be thankfull or respect you for giving that help, because you are medling in their life and potentially changing it. And even if it is objectively (as objectively as it can be for such a subject) for the better, they do not have to like that change.

Some people simply prefer to be miserable.

Indeed. I never did say the other party will like it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Does that mean if you mother decides to stick her finger in the electric outlet, you will respect her judgemnt and not warn her?

Seriously.

You often have soem good points in discussions..but this? Dammit man. This is so damn idiotic that I cannot help but think someone hihjacked your account.

I'm doing what I always do.  I'm following the logic.

Strawman. I care because I do. Love has no contractual conditions.

But it has some sort of basis.  Unless you're claiming that there could be two people who were completely indistinguishable except in that you cared for one of them but not the other.  Are you claiming that?

And I trust them...most of the time at least
Love and care do not mean blind trust.

Love and care means respect.  Respect means I don't pretend to know their minds better than they do.

nightscrawl wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BioWare is already letting us hide some metagame information: we can disable plot helpers.  They should let us disable the relationship meter as well.

I don't think they like having a toggle or option for everything though. Going in that direction leads people to asking for things like a checkbox for sexual preference or something like that.

I would agree.  But since they've already established that they're willing to implement toggles to let us hide metagame information, then they should let us hide as much metagame information as possible.

I'd suggest a single toggle for all of it, or perhaps an editable .ini file.

[Demx]

We had a bar in the first game, and people complained about getting in an unexpected romance. So removing the bar shouldn't be a problem for that area. Bioware will still add icons to tell you how to flirt.

The only time I needed to check the bar in DA2, was for maximizing friendship or rivalry. Remove the need for maximizing anything, and I don't see a point in having the bar. Why should I be aware through mechanics that my companion is going to betray me, or just up and leave? It's not like the bar is the only clue. We saw hearts with numbers and got cut-scenes about our decisions and their effects on our companions. That should be enough clues for the player. The bar is just a redundancy meter for people who are not paying attention to those details.

Modifié par Siradix, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I think superior character interactions would help immersion far more than removing the alignment meter.

[BubbleDncr]

As long as they have bonuses tied to high friendship/rivalries, I think they have to keep some sort of UI so that you can check to see if you're on the right track. Otherwise, people who play to get bonuses will get frustrated that they can't easily find out how much more effort they need to put into a character.

Also, it would be easier for players to miss content without them. In Origins, if I went solely off of how my conversations with my companions went, I would have told you I was good friends with Leliana and Wynne - tho I was too busy focusing on getting Alistair's affection up to ever glance at their affection bars. But I didn't use them much, or give them a lot of gifts, so while we had nice chats in camp, I never actually got their affection up high enough to unlock either of their sidequests. When I finally did go back at the end of the game to look at their affection meters, I was disappointed that I actually wasn't as good friends with them as I had thought, based on our conversations - same thing happened with Isabela in DA2. I thought we were friends, not paying much attention to her friendship bar, going just off our conversations, but then she left me in Act 2. Relationship bar lets me reload and know why.

Another point, is that the Arishok in DA2 is basically what you're asking for. He felt differently about you, based on your actions, but the only indication of this (other than an achievement you can only get your first playthrough) was some of his dialog at the end of Act 2. And that little achievement popping up the first time saying that I had earned his respect was a lot more satisfying than the dialog, and I've been sad to not have such an indication every playthrough since.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Also, it would be easier for players to miss content without them. In Origins, if I went solely off of how my conversations with my companions went, I would have told you I was good friends with Leliana and Wynne - tho I was too busy focusing on getting Alistair's affection up to ever glance at their affection bars. But I didn't use them much, or give them a lot of gifts, so while we had nice chats in camp, I never actually got their affection up high enough to unlock either of their sidequests. When I finally did go back at the end of the game to look at their affection meters, I was disappointed that I actually wasn't as good friends with them as I had thought, based on our conversations - same thing happened with Isabela in DA2. I thought we were friends, not paying much attention to her friendship bar, going just off our conversations, but then she left me in Act 2. Relationship bar lets me reload and know why.

That's why I think the relationship bar should be optional.  I think it's more realistic never to know Isabela's true feelings.

[BubbleDncr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

Also, it would be easier for players to miss content without them. In Origins, if I went solely off of how my conversations with my companions went, I would have told you I was good friends with Leliana and Wynne - tho I was too busy focusing on getting Alistair's affection up to ever glance at their affection bars. But I didn't use them much, or give them a lot of gifts, so while we had nice chats in camp, I never actually got their affection up high enough to unlock either of their sidequests. When I finally did go back at the end of the game to look at their affection meters, I was disappointed that I actually wasn't as good friends with them as I had thought, based on our conversations - same thing happened with Isabela in DA2. I thought we were friends, not paying much attention to her friendship bar, going just off our conversations, but then she left me in Act 2. Relationship bar lets me reload and know why.

That's why I think the relationship bar should be optional.  I think it's more realistic never to know Isabela's true feelings.

I guess I just feel like without a relationship bar, dialog with Isabella would have to be a lot clearer that we weren't "friends." Because I honestly, not looking at the relationship bar, would have thought we were friends. I would just be sad when she left and never came back. Then, when I went on the internet, I would find out it was cos we weren't "friends" enough - so next time I played through, how would I try to resolve this? My first guess is I would just always have Isabella in my party, save often, and reload every single time I got rivalry points from her instead of frienship (or vice versa), since all I know is that I need to get her to like me a lot.

I would probably spend more time metagaming trying to please her, because I don't know how much I have to please her and when I could stop, then if there was a meter there telling me so.

But sure, optional relationshp bar works. But I'll never play without it.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:37 .