626 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

jillabender wrote...

Emzamination wrote…

Syllogi wrote…

The King Cailan armor is not technically using the toolset to replicate DLC exclusive items, because the armor model and texture was already in the game as Orlesian plate.  All the modder did was recolor it gold and gave it new stats.  There are no rules against recoloring/retexturing existing ingame items.  Even without the toolset, plenty of people do this for DA2, and I don't think Bioware objects.

As for the Blood Dragon Armor and Warden's Keep armor, are you actually sure that those mods can be used without the original files?  I can't test it at the moment, but I know that DLC specific mods I've seen in the past are not able to be used without owning the DLC.  

Saying that the toolset should be eliminated just because it can be misused is a terrible argument anyway, because it's assuming the worst about the community.  The majority of modders are passionate, creative, and loyal fans, and they don't deserve to be accused of theft simply because they want to use their skills and creativity to increase the enjoyment of a game.  If you see mods that are definitely taking resources from DLC (without making the mod DLC dependent), you can always contact the mod site owners, and the file will usually be taken down pretty quickly.  If they don't, you can send an email to EA about the infringement.  Penalizing all modders for the misdeeds of a few is not the answer, and it's pretty insulting of you to claim so.

I'm sorry syllogi, I didn't see your post.I appologize if I offended you or any other modder using the toolset for your own enjoyment, this certainly wasn't my intention.

Thank you – I appreciate that.

No problem

[RosaAquafire]

BrotherWarth wrote...

That's nonsensical. I haven't played a lot games that I know are crap.

I've played a lot of games I thought were crap and ended up enjoying them. I've also played a lot of games I was sure I'd like and they were crap. Insert for movie/book/album/literally any form of entertainment. Forming an opinion on something you haven't seen for yourself is not only arrogant, your opinion has no value.

All of this is just a really long, drawn out way of saying that just because DA2 was a dud at retail it doesn't mean it was bad game. Sure, some great games don't sell well. But those are the exception, not the rule.

I was arguing that DA2's sales don't indicate that a majority of its players were dissastisfied with it, but if you want to get into sales being a mark of quality than I have a list of games as long as my arm that sold outrageously well that you probably "know are crap."

[ElitePinecone]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Cyne wrote...

I don't mind if there's multiplayer in DA3 as long as it doesn't detract from single player. me 3 managed to do it fine excluding the ending. I would love to see the care and attention to detail shown in guild wars 2.

Uh.. this may have been a fluke of sorts.

EA originally intended to co-release two Mass Effect Games: One our Bioware's traditional single player that we know and love, the other a Call of Effect Multiplayer. So the single player and multiplayer were developed in large part seperately. But due to who knows what they decided to release one game as one game, and they were released in the same cover.

This may not be the case with DA3. If the multiplayer is developed by the same studio group as the singleplayer, it will effectively take away from singleplayer UNLESS they allocate additional time for development which will not happen (I doubt we will see something that could be called "polished" on either front).
And if the DA3 multiplayer is the ME3 multiplayer with staffs instead of guns... well what the hell.

Adding multiplayer would change sales projections and would almost certainly influence the development budget, so I think it's a bit simplistic to say MP would necessarily detract from the zots available for singleplayer. Particularly when the whole point of Bioware Montreal (and other Bioware label studios) is to provide support to Edmonton for their big projects. What's to say, for example, that an auxillary team at Montreal isn't busy making art assets and environments/maps for some hypothetical co-op mode? They have their own projects in development, and are doing a certain amount of work for ME3, but they've been hiring like crazy. 

I agree that it would be... bad... if a team roughly the size of DA2's tried to make a *much* more polished singleplayer in addition to developing a completely new co-op mode, but we have no evidence that this is the case. We have no evidence of anything, really, so until we do I'd prefer to hold off on the pessimism just a little. 

[augustburnt]

 Because wasting man hours on ME3 multiplayer worked out so well... wait...

[ianvillan]

RosaAquafire wrote...

I don't think they are. People like me who are diehard DA2 fans, who see that the game had flaws but love the finished product way more than DA:O's, and would love to get something like DA2 with DA:O's level of effort and branching storylines -- we're just ****ing tired of arguing about it. The hatred is so loud, so passionate, so full of vitriol, and so completely lacking in respect for anyone who could possibly disagree with them ... ****, why bother? It's so completely not worth the effort.

When you love something and half the internet is screaming how much they hated it, it's a huge mellow harsher and eventually you just get off the internet. Nothing you say is going to convince me that I secretly hate DA2 or invalidate the fun I've had with it, but it WILL bum me the hell out and nobody likes getting insulted for their opinions. I know that Bioware knows people like me are out there, and are not a minority, that we equal at least half of DA2's playerbase, and I just don't want to engage in the circle of hate. It's poisonous, it makes me feel bad, and so I shut my mouth and just talk about DA2 with my friends -- every single one of which, by the way, feels the same way about it as I did.

Just because we got tired of listening to you yell doesn't mean we don't exist. I'm glad I don't have to keep wading into the toxic atmosphere to remind Bioware that I'm here.

What about the people who are diehard DAO fans, who know that the game had flaws but love the finished product way more than DA2, and would love to get something like DAO.

Alot of DAO fans get passionate because all we heard before the release of DA2 from Bioware marketing and the devs was how bad Origins was in almost every way.

Then when DA2 comes out and we see that they have stripped almost everything from Origins out and have streamlined it to something that a lot of people hated, yet Bioware still will not come out and say what they liked and want to keep about Origins but are praising and keeping most of DA2 it makes us upset.

Bioware must know that people like me who prefer Origins to DA2 are out there, and we are not a minority, and we equal at least half of the playerbase, so why are we not being taken in to consideration.

[Chokra Broodslayer]

Ah... the old multiplayer discussion and argument... I remember the first incarnation of this back when it was just "Dragon Age" in development and Obsidian hadn't even released "Neverwinter Nights 2" yet. It was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate II (which does have multiplayer), while many of us hoped it would be the spiritual successor to Neverwinter Nights (especially after NWN2 was released and the PW options were way too limiting) so we could continue to use its resources to build our own multiplayer worlds.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the original NWN but it's very dated now on graphics and capabilities. DA3 needs to finally live up to some of the things that the original DA (pre DA:O) was supposedly striving for (such as multiplayer, MP toolset, PW server support, DM client, etc.). The majority of my friends who were heavy into NWN and our guild, have all quit playing BioWare games because they want more MP experience. I still buy the BioWare games but I've noticed I'm starting to slack (I haven't bought ME3 yet! -- Normally I pre-order and so on).

I think a lot of people are waiting for the next NWN.

[Chokra Broodslayer]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was produced in ten months.  Hardly the kind of thing to start from when trying to prognosticate the next not-going-to-be-made-in-ten-months game's quality.

Mass Effect 3 was brilliantly received except for the ending. The ending was of course, a single player event.

What is even your point? "I didn't personally like the multiplayer in Mass Effect 3, therefore it was bad, therefore all BioWare multiplayer will be bad, therefore BioWare is a bad company, therefore they should listen to me?"

Pointing to the reviews doesn't really help your case since so many reviewers admitted after the backlash started that they never even finished the game before reviewing it. The game was not properly vetted by the gaming press. And Bioware has said over and over that they started developing DA2 before Origins even launched. That means they had at least 16 months to develop it, which is more time than a lot of AAA titles.

Wasn't "Dragon Age: Origins" more than 5 years in the making, though?

[Chokra Broodslayer]

BrotherWarth wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

That's nonsensical. I haven't played a lot games that I know are crap.

I've played a lot of games I thought were crap and ended up enjoying them. I've also played a lot of games I was sure I'd like and they were crap. Insert for movie/book/album/literally any form of entertainment. Forming an opinion on something you haven't seen for yourself is not only arrogant, your opinion has no value.

I've never seen Starship Troopers 3.
Your argument is invalid.

I've never HEARD of Starship Troopers 3.

Then again, I refuse to believe that there were any "Highlander" movies after the first... or any further "Alien" movies after "Aliens"... and I refuse the thought process that there's anything after "The Matrix." And "Star Wars" was three movies made in the late '70s and early '80s with some unfortunate business about Ewoks.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Chokra Broodslayer wrote...

Ah... the old multiplayer discussion and argument... I remember the first incarnation of this back when it was just "Dragon Age" in development and Obsidian hadn't even released "Neverwinter Nights 2" yet. It was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate II (which does have multiplayer), while many of us hoped it would be the spiritual successor to Neverwinter Nights (especially after NWN2 was released and the PW options were way too limiting) so we could continue to use its resources to build our own multiplayer worlds.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the original NWN but it's very dated now on graphics and capabilities. DA3 needs to finally live up to some of the things that the original DA (pre DA:O) was supposedly striving for (such as multiplayer, MP toolset, PW server support, DM client, etc.). The majority of my friends who were heavy into NWN and our guild, have all quit playing BioWare games because they want more MP experience. I still buy the BioWare games but I've noticed I'm starting to slack (I haven't bought ME3 yet! -- Normally I pre-order and so on).

I think a lot of people are waiting for the next NWN.

I think we have seen the end of the era of toolsets being released, at least from Bioware. Despite the huge attention from a segment of fans in the pre-release of DAO that it got (yes, back when the entire discussion was ONE THREAD is the much better behaved and moderated old Bioware forums), this just isn't the direction that Bioware is apparently interested in anymore. Either EA/Biowae do not think there is a market (or a substantial enough market) that would justify the work of making a user friendly enough tool set, EA/Bioware don't care about said market, or said market is not as easy to satisfy and as such there isn't as much pay off in appealing to them (as say, the CoD crowd).*

Also, Bioware might then have to develop better ways to deliver user-generated content, because frankly, the BSN is a joke in this capacity. Of course that leads to all sorts of problems since then content has to be monitored, since it is moving through an official EA/Bioware website, blah blah blah. While there were plenty of amazing third party sites for NWN content to download, I don't think we will see that kind of fan dedication again. Which is ashame, since some of the best CRPG experiences I had were with original modules made in NWN. 

Anyways, I think the MP discussion needs to evolve and become something more nuanced and distinquish between different types of interaction. Also, the assumption that if people liked NWN then they have to like MP needs to be revisited (as I loved NWN, spent hundreds if not thousands of hours on it, and never particapted in a MP modile or persistent world). 




*Yes, I know this probably unfair, but they should never, EVAH, live down that statement. 

[ElitePinecone]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

I think we have seen the end of the era of toolsets being released, at least from Bioware. Despite the huge attention from a segment of fans in the pre-release of DAO that it got (yes, back when the entire discussion was ONE THREAD is the much better behaved and moderated old Bioware forums), this just isn't the direction that Bioware is apparently interested in anymore. Either EA/Biowae do not think there is a market (or a substantial enough market) that would justify the work of making a user friendly enough tool set, EA/Bioware don't care about said market, or said market is not as easy to satisfy and as such there isn't as much pay off in appealing to them (as say, the CoD crowd).*

Mark Darrah had something interesting to say in response to a toolset question at one of the PAXseseses, basically they had no plans to release a toolset but the circumstances of The Next Thing meant he couldn't give specifics as to what exactly that meant. Make of that what you will...

While it's certainly possible that Bioware/EA just aren't interested in providing a toolset for a whole bunch of different reasons, the one they've officially given any time the question has come up is that it'd need to use proprietary software and systems that they don't own. 

[Morty Smith]

Don´t fool yourself, the real MP is and has always been played here on the BSN.

It´s a blast!

Modifié par Kroitz, 10 septembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[The Elder King]

Chokra Broodslayer wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was produced in ten months.  Hardly the kind of thing to start from when trying to prognosticate the next not-going-to-be-made-in-ten-months game's quality.

Mass Effect 3 was brilliantly received except for the ending. The ending was of course, a single player event.

What is even your point? "I didn't personally like the multiplayer in Mass Effect 3, therefore it was bad, therefore all BioWare multiplayer will be bad, therefore BioWare is a bad company, therefore they should listen to me?"

Pointing to the reviews doesn't really help your case since so many reviewers admitted after the backlash started that they never even finished the game before reviewing it. The game was not properly vetted by the gaming press. And Bioware has said over and over that they started developing DA2 before Origins even launched. That means they had at least 16 months to develop it, which is more time than a lot of AAA titles.

Wasn't "Dragon Age: Origins" more than 5 years in the making, though?

Yeah. People often forget that a RPG needs more development time than a FPS, or TPS. Not necessarily 5 years, but I think that less than two years is surely an insufficient time to develop a RPG.
And DA2 clearly shown that. Regardless of the opinion about the game, the third Act is clearly rushed, there's a lot of reused areas in the game, and there were tons of bugs (one/two made the game unplayable).
Plus, I think Bioware too said that the development time for DA2 wasn't enough.

[ElitePinecone]

It's worth noting that a fair chunk of DAO's early dev time seemed to be just developing the IP, it did take them a long while to sit down and actually create the universe, its characters and its stories (as well as a new engine, etc). It's not like that entire five or six years was solid work on anything like a finished game.

Wasn't someone saying a while ago that once the fragmentation of the dev team for things like Witch Hunt and other DLC was taken into account, the actual solid development period for DA2 was even shorter than a year? I'm frankly surprised they were able to produce as much content as they did.

[cJohnOne]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Chokra Broodslayer wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was produced in ten months.  Hardly the kind of thing to start from when trying to prognosticate the next not-going-to-be-made-in-ten-months game's quality.

Mass Effect 3 was brilliantly received except for the ending. The ending was of course, a single player event.

What is even your point? "I didn't personally like the multiplayer in Mass Effect 3, therefore it was bad, therefore all BioWare multiplayer will be bad, therefore BioWare is a bad company, therefore they should listen to me?"

Pointing to the reviews doesn't really help your case since so many reviewers admitted after the backlash started that they never even finished the game before reviewing it. The game was not properly vetted by the gaming press. And Bioware has said over and over that they started developing DA2 before Origins even launched. That means they had at least 16 months to develop it, which is more time than a lot of AAA titles.

Wasn't "Dragon Age: Origins" more than 5 years in the making, though?

It wasn't 5 years of developing the game we got. The early game was very different in pretty much every aspect. And in that 5 years they created all of Thedas and a metric **** load of lore. Not in-game, obviously, but they do have a "Thedas Bible" of sorts with all the history of all the nations, the cultures, etc. Dragon Age 2 didn't require that much time because the franchise was already established. That said, they didn't really manage their time wisely with DA2 IMO. They completely revamped the art style and made the combat super anime fun time instead of making the city in which the entire game takes place interesting or active. It's just a dead city with no one doing anything except parachuting in to fight you for no reason.

I found there was an adequate ammount of people in Kirkwall. There just wasn't anybody to talk to.

[Sabriana]

ianvillan wrote...

What about the people who are diehard DAO fans, who know that the game had flaws but love the finished product way more than DA2, and would love to get something like DAO.

Alot of DAO fans get passionate because all we heard before the release of DA2 from Bioware marketing and the devs was how bad Origins was in almost every way.

Then when DA2 comes out and we see that they have stripped almost everything from Origins out and have streamlined it to something that a lot of people hated, yet Bioware still will not come out and say what they liked and want to keep about Origins but are praising and keeping most of DA2 it makes us upset.

Bioware must know that people like me who prefer Origins to DA2 are out there, and we are not a minority, and we equal at least half of the playerbase, so why are we not being taken in to consideration.

I couldn't have said it better, and I agree with this post 100 %

[bEVEsthda]

Chokra Broodslayer wrote...
I've never HEARD of Starship Troopers 3.

Then again, I refuse to believe that there were any "Highlander" movies after the first... or any further "Alien" movies after "Aliens"... and I refuse the thought process that there's anything after "The Matrix." And "Star Wars" was three movies made in the late '70s and early '80s with some unfortunate business about Ewoks.

I've never heard of Starship Troopers 2.
Unfortunately, I've seen some few minutes of ST 3. If you remember the first movie, you know that it was made in a certain "style", tounge in cheek and very much intentionally and polished so. Now imagine that some greedy but poor producers totally mistook it for being serious, and assembled a team of other fools who also mistook Starship Troopers as serious. Starship Troopers 3 is not that movie. Imagine instead the sequel again to that movie, made with an even lower budget and employing the writer that did the end of ME3. - That's Starship Troopers 3! Strangely enough, it's considered better than ST 2, which is maybe why I never heard of the second movie.

Is it better or worse than DA2, you wonder?
I've pondered that question for long, myself, and have come to the conclusion that DA2 is better.

Oh, and the third 'Alien' movie is actually very good. Different and maybe not the kind of movie people expected, but it's a poetic and beautiful movie. 4 is crap though.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:20 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...And if the DA3 multiplayer is the ME3 multiplayer with staffs instead of guns... well what the hell.

LOL! I'm imagining endless hordes of darkspawn that we fight on maps of the Chantry or Deep Roads, all while trying to recover important, secret tomes written by Brother Genitivi.

A small childlike robot tells Hawke and the Warden to merge to make "Templages" a synthesis of mages and Templars that will be imortal and all goodie goodie but so very creepy. Or to jump on the deep roads pit and merge with darkspawn, to make all darkspawn nice and helpful but Warden and Hawke are now an Archdemon. Or you shoot a Lyrium pillar and the Fade ceases to exist, as do Darkspawn and magic, but you see Warden and Hawke styrring - you don't know if it is their last gasp before they die. Finally you can destroy the little brat and everyone in Thedas dies. 

Don't give them ideas!

[Lord_Valandil]

bEVEsthda wrote...
Oh, and the third 'Alien' movie is actually very good. Different and maybe not the kind of movie people expected, but it's a poetic and beautiful movie. 4 is crap though.

I wouldn't call it 'poetic and beautiful'.
It was crap since the very beginning, when they decided to kill off Bishop, Newt and Hicks.
Even Fincher himself hates it, that's why he has never showed up to make commentaries or something in the additional content dvds and bds.
On the other hand, I really like 4. But that's just me.

[Terror_K]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not in denial about not everyone liking DA2. If you're of the belief that there is consensus on that fact-- even here on the BSN-- then I'm afraid you're suffering from the same selective perception of which you're accusing me.

I certainly do agree that the people who don't like it are the loudest, but that's hardly unexpected given human nature. If one expects that we're going to listen to them and only them moving forward, however, and everyone else must be "people on our friends list LOL" then we've really not much to discuss. We're making a lot of changes and improvements which we'll discuss at length when we're ready. I'm fairly certain, however, that no matter what we do there will be people who'll feel they aren't getting the exact game they wanted. Which of course will mean we never listen to anyone. So be it, you know?

There's very little point when you guys aren't really listening at all, despite your claims to the contrary. There are certain factors that you guys have just stubbornly made your mind up on and that you refuse to listen to reason on, such as the voiced PC vs. the silent one, sticking with the crappy new reboot art-style and your continued insistence that despite the backlash that DA2 was the right place to take the IP. The fact that you guys have claimed that you want to find a middle-ground between DAO and DA2 alone proves that you've utterly missed the point and refused to acknowledge the problems that plague your company as of late, not just with Dragon Age, but on the Mass Effect side of things and with BioWare as a whole.

Until you guys take a step back and realise what your issues are, there's little point in fans wanting a proper, deep RPG in even saying anything, because they aren't going to get it. BioWare's mindset and philosophy lately is what's at fault. Too much pandering to the mainstream and trying to grow your audience by mainstreamlining everything and shoehorning elements that are popular trends for the sake of mass appeal rather than because its better for the game(s). You guys keep claiming you're still makers of strong RPGs, but all you want to seem to really be making now are shallow, story-driven action games. Dragon Age 2 pretty much directly spat on everything that the original DAO was supposed to be for the sake of these things.

The basic fact is, DA2 wasn't riddled with problems... it was riddled with symptoms that are caused by a far bigger problem. And I shouldn't need to spell out what that problem is. But as long as it's there, then the symptoms will continue. And it's pretty damn obvious that DA3 is going to be riddled with them too. Sure... we don't know much, but we know enough.

[FaWa]

Maybe the people who are complaining are the loudest because...They are correct!?