626 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

ianvillan wrote...

Now I am all for attracting new players, I want dragon age to be a huge success, but these statements show that the games you made were made to appeal to a new audiance and have been changed from what the old fans enjoyed for a more mainstream game.

Case in point: what's the point in Dragon Age expanding and trying to attract new plaers if it is no longer Dragon Age in the process? And that's pretty much what happened with DA2.

[ianvillan]

Terror_K wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Now I am all for attracting new players, I want dragon age to be a huge success, but these statements show that the games you made were made to appeal to a new audiance and have been changed from what the old fans enjoyed for a more mainstream game.

Case in point: what's the point in Dragon Age expanding and trying to attract new plaers if it is no longer Dragon Age in the process? And that's pretty much what happened with DA2.

In Dragon Age Origins Bioware made a game that was given perfect scores and had great fan feedback, yet instead of improving on it they scrap almost all the systems that made it get perfect scores in the first place and make a game just to appeal to the mainstream audience, yet when the game is released they say they were shocked that it was recieved so negitively.

Bioware says for the next game they wont do a 180 degree turn because it would put too many people off, yet they had no problem doing it in the first place, even after DA2 did worse with the fans than Origins got less scores and sold less they still insist on going in the wrong direction.

[ElitePinecone]

Terror_K wrote...
... a deliberate effort to stab fans of the original in the backs by making a sequel damn near the opposite of the original game.

I'm not saying the main purpose of the game was to alienate the original fanbase directly, but that given the change in direction they intentionally went for and the fact they purposefully diverted the sequel so strongly away from the original vision and premise of the series that it was an inevitable outcome. DA2 wasn't born out of mistakes, it was born out of a direct effort to appeal to the mainstream masses rather than be a proper sequel.

How on earth can you blame the company for your sense of entitled offence? 

The idea that the sole purpose of the game was to personally insult, backstab and betray you and fans like you is ludicrous. It's a completely useless line of debate if the arguments revolve around the developers having some dastardly, deliberate sense of malice towards old-school games. It's not like Bioware devs sat cackling in an office plotting how best to upset fans, shouting with triumph every time a senior producer thought of a new way to make die-hard RPG fans cry. If you feel so strongly about game features being cut, perhaps you're overinvested. 

They made a product, as a company and a business, with a target audience in mind. That target audience might not be you. You aren't obligated to buy the game, you're certainly entitled to feel disappointed that it wasn't aimed at you, but to take it as a deliberate attack is delusional. 

Throwing around words like betrayal or backstabbing does no justice to your cause, if you really do want to see DA3 become better than its predecessor. It pushes the grounds for debate so far out of reality that it's honestly hard to respond to. Worse, it distracts from the quite valid arguments that can be made against DA2's style of streamlining, because the point you're starting from is just so nonsensical. 

[ianvillan]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
... a deliberate effort to stab fans of the original in the backs by making a sequel damn near the opposite of the original game.

I'm not saying the main purpose of the game was to alienate the original fanbase directly, but that given the change in direction they intentionally went for and the fact they purposefully diverted the sequel so strongly away from the original vision and premise of the series that it was an inevitable outcome. DA2 wasn't born out of mistakes, it was born out of a direct effort to appeal to the mainstream masses rather than be a proper sequel.

How on earth can you blame the company for your sense of entitled offence? 

The idea that the sole purpose of the game was to personally insult, backstab and betray you and fans like you is ludicrous. It's a completely useless line of debate if the arguments revolve around the developers having some dastardly, deliberate sense of malice towards old-school games. It's not like Bioware devs sat cackling in an office plotting how best to upset fans, shouting with triumph every time a senior producer thought of a new way to make die-hard RPG fans cry. If you feel so strongly about game features being cut, perhaps you're overinvested. 

They made a product, as a company and a business, with a target audience in mind. That target audience might not be you. You aren't obligated to buy the game, you're certainly entitled to feel disappointed that it wasn't aimed at you, but to take it as a deliberate attack is delusional. 

Throwing around words like betrayal or backstabbing does no justice to your cause, if you really do want to see DA3 become better than its predecessor. It pushes the grounds for debate so far out of reality that it's honestly hard to respond to. Worse, it distracts from the quite valid arguments that can be made against DA2's style of streamlining, because the point you're starting from is just so nonsensical. 

I have no problem with them making a game for a new audience instead of the old fans, what I do have a problem with is when they change a successfull game that was liked by the old audience to appeal to the mainstream audience and them believeing the old fans are a minority so if they loose them it dosen't matter.

Then when the new game is not successfull in getting the big number of fans they want, Bioware then tries to get the old fans back by saying we value you and listen to what you want but they are still making the same game as DA2 with a bone thrown in for the old fans expecting us to crawl back.

Bioware are working of the next game as we speak and have no problem implementing most of the features from DA2 what ever the feedback may say, but they are having difficulty finding one feature of Origins they can confidently implement.

Modifié par ianvillan, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:53 .

[Terror_K]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
... a deliberate effort to stab fans of the original in the backs by making a sequel damn near the opposite of the original game.

I'm not saying the main purpose of the game was to alienate the original fanbase directly, but that given the change in direction they intentionally went for and the fact they purposefully diverted the sequel so strongly away from the original vision and premise of the series that it was an inevitable outcome. DA2 wasn't born out of mistakes, it was born out of a direct effort to appeal to the mainstream masses rather than be a proper sequel.

How on earth can you blame the company for your sense of entitled offence? 

The idea that the sole purpose of the game was to personally insult, backstab and betray you and fans like you is ludicrous. It's a completely useless line of debate if the arguments revolve around the developers having some dastardly, deliberate sense of malice towards old-school games. It's not like Bioware devs sat cackling in an office plotting how best to upset fans, shouting with triumph every time a senior producer thought of a new way to make die-hard RPG fans cry. If you feel so strongly about game features being cut, perhaps you're overinvested. 

They made a product, as a company and a business, with a target audience in mind. That target audience might not be you. You aren't obligated to buy the game, you're certainly entitled to feel disappointed that it wasn't aimed at you, but to take it as a deliberate attack is delusional.

For starters, as I've stated previously, it's not entitlement to expect a product and sequel to stay true to its roots and source material.

Also, like I said, I don't think they went out of their way to deliberately stab old school RPG fans in the back in the manner you suggest. What I'm saying is that they deliberately went against the grain and deliberately designed DA2 to move away from what DAO started and what Dragon Age was designed to be originally. In doing that, they deliberately alienated and backstabbed their old fanbase. I guess the distinction is that while it wasn't the main intent behind the changes from Origins to DA2, it was the main side-effect, and one they were completely unapologetic about. They knew what they were doing and they had to know what it was going to result in, but they still did it anyway, probably arrogantly thinking, "We are the mighty BioWare! We can do no wrong!" the whole time.

As for a target audience, should not fans of the original game be the primary target audience of a sequel? Isn't that the entire point of a sequel and what separates it from being something else entirely? Branching out is one thing, but trying to deviate so much from the source material and alienating the original fanbase because the sequel is next to none of the things the original game was is not the way to do this.

Throwing around words like betrayal or backstabbing does no justice to your cause, if you really do want to see DA3 become better than its predecessor. It pushes the grounds for debate so far out of reality that it's honestly hard to respond to. Worse, it distracts from the quite valid arguments that can be made against DA2's style of streamlining, because the point you're starting from is just so nonsensical. 

BioWare already started rendering debate pointless by throwing down the gauntlet from the get-go though. You say the point I'm starting from is nonsensical, but that's merely a reaction to a stubborn and blind BioWare already stating things like that they are trying to find a blend between DA2 and DAO and that it'll be a voiced PC with a dialogue wheel again and another overly-defined and set role, with strong indications once more that we're forced into being a human, etc. When BioWare just stubbornly outright refuse to deal with several key issues and just blatantly say, "No! This is the way things are going to be, **** you!" then what's the point debating at all?

Besides, as I've stated several times, debating specifics about DA3 is pointless when all we have are symptoms of a far greater problem. Unless the rot is removed from BioWare higher up, there's no point in debating specifics because in the end BioWare are still afflicted at the moment with the same stubborn arrogance and the same "have our cake and eat it too" attitude that stops them from creating a deep, meaningful RPG. They're still too concerned about pandering to the mainstream, broadening appeal and trying to find this "perfect hybrid" to appeal to all instead of making a proper RPG. They are going in the complete wrong direction and are just heading towards making more story-driven action games overly dependent on cinematics and too concerned with action and style over substance, etc.

Debate is a waste of time... they won't listen. They're too damn invested in their new ways and too damn stubborn and blind to even see what's wrong, let alone do anything about it.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
... a deliberate effort to stab fans of the original in the backs by making a sequel damn near the opposite of the original game.

I'm not saying the main purpose of the game was to alienate the original fanbase directly, but that given the change in direction they intentionally went for and the fact they purposefully diverted the sequel so strongly away from the original vision and premise of the series that it was an inevitable outcome. DA2 wasn't born out of mistakes, it was born out of a direct effort to appeal to the mainstream masses rather than be a proper sequel.

How on earth can you blame the company for your sense of entitled offence? 

The idea that the sole purpose of the game was to personally insult, backstab and betray you and fans like you is ludicrous. It's a completely useless line of debate if the arguments revolve around the developers having some dastardly, deliberate sense of malice towards old-school games. It's not like Bioware devs sat cackling in an office plotting how best to upset fans, shouting with triumph every time a senior producer thought of a new way to make die-hard RPG fans cry. If you feel so strongly about game features being cut, perhaps you're overinvested. 

They made a product, as a company and a business, with a target audience in mind. That target audience might not be you. You aren't obligated to buy the game, you're certainly entitled to feel disappointed that it wasn't aimed at you, but to take it as a deliberate attack is delusional. 

Throwing around words like betrayal or backstabbing does no justice to your cause, if you really do want to see DA3 become better than its predecessor. It pushes the grounds for debate so far out of reality that it's honestly hard to respond to. Worse, it distracts from the quite valid arguments that can be made against DA2's style of streamlining, because the point you're starting from is just so nonsensical. 

I have no problem with them making a game for a new audience instead of the old fans, what I do have a problem with is when they change a successfull game that was liked by the old audience to appeal to the mainstream audience and them believeing the old fans are a minority so if they loose them it dosen't matter.

Then when the new game is not successfull in getting the big number of fans they want, Bioware then tries to get the old fans back by saying we value you and listen to what you want but they are still making the same game as DA2 with a bone thrown in for the old fans expecting us to crawl back.

Bioware are working of the next game as we speak and have no problem implementing most of the features from DA2 what ever the feedback may say, but they are having difficulty finding one feature of Origins they can confidently implement.

I wouldn't go and make so many judgements until we have some concrete data as to what DA3 will be like.  We know so very little right now...

[ElitePinecone]

If you don't like the way DA3 is shaping up when it's eventually (finally....) announced, you're most welcome not to buy it. Several million people had that opinion about DA2, and they chose not to purchase it. The best way to send a message about what you like or don't like about a game is with your wallet. I haven't seen anything that makes me particularly pessimistic about DA3, if anything the 'marketing survey' - if genuine - painted a picture of a game I'd probably love playing.

What I find baffling is the sense of betrayal. Disappointment, sure, confusion, fine, but to take it as a personal attack that a company made business choices is being totally unreasonable.

(That being said, I do think Bioware's communication and marketing has been underwhelming. Honest explanations of why they're doing certain things or why they don't have the resources to do other things, would convince me a whole lot more than sparkly marketing and PR-speak that disappoints when it doesn't match reality.)

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 17 septembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Bioware should have built upon the success of Origins instead of trying to reinvent it along the lines of what made Mass Effect so succesful. As of to date, Origins is still Bioware's most succesful game withi only ME3 coming close to its sales numbers. But ME3 wouldn't have had its sales numbers of selling 4 million if it wasn't for the success of ME1 and 2. Making the decision to change the Dragon Age IP was unwarrented.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 17 septembre 2012 - 01:05 .

[ianvillan]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you don't like the way DA3 is shaping up when it's eventually (finally....) announced, you're most welcome not to buy it. Several million people had that opinion about DA2, and they chose not to purchase it. The best way to send a message about what you like or don't like about a game is with your wallet. I haven't seen anything that makes me particularly pessimistic about DA3, if anything the 'marketing survey' - if genuine - painted a picture of a game I'd probably love playing.

What I find baffling is the sense of betrayal. Disappointment, sure, confusion, fine, but to take it as a personal attack that a company made business choices is being totally unreasonable.

(That being said, I do think Bioware's communication and marketing has been underwhelming. Honest explanations of why they're doing certain things or why they don't have the resources to do other things, would convince me a whole lot more than sparkly marketing and PR-speak that disappoints when it doesn't match reality.)

For me this is probably what caused the main problem, it was just seeing how in the interviews they had to go out of their way and critisize Origins and say how what they are implementing is a great improvement, yet when the game game out it never lived up to the claims and in many ways was worse than before.

Now we hear some of the same speak like best of both worlds and listening to feedback but I am not seeing anything but DA2 systems and direction.

[Terror_K]

ElitePinecone wrote...

If you don't like the way DA3 is shaping up when it's eventually (finally....) announced, you're most welcome not to buy it. Several million people had that opinion about DA2, and they chose not to purchase it. The best way to send a message about what you like or don't like about a game is with your wallet. I haven't seen anything that makes me particularly pessimistic about DA3, if anything the 'marketing survey' - if genuine - painted a picture of a game I'd probably love playing.

I'm not going to buy it, or any other future BioWare game. At least not so long as they're in their current mode. I've already decided that.

What I find baffling is the sense of betrayal. Disappointment, sure, confusion, fine, but to take it as a personal attack that a company made business choices is being totally unreasonable.

(That being said, I do think Bioware's communication and marketing has been underwhelming. Honest explanations of why they're doing certain things or why they don't have the resources to do other things, would convince me a whole lot more than sparkly marketing and PR-speak that disappoints when it doesn't match reality.)

I don't see how it can been seen as anything less.

When they spend about 7 years hyping up this new IP called Dragon Age that's supposed to herald a return to the classic, epic fantasy RPG designed around the PC and intended as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate made for hardcore RPG fans, then proceed to completely abandon every single one of these factors with the first sequel only a year after the original was finally released by deliberately turning it into a generic console-designed hack'n'slash action RPG made for the mainstream, casual gamer instead it's nothing less than a betrayal.

You can't create an IP and series for the purposes of being one thing and then completely abandon that the next moment by turning it into the very type of game that Dragon Age was supposed to liberate us from. That was the original point and reason Dragon Age was made in the first place: to NOT be what Dragon Age 2 was.

How is that NOT a betrayal?

Modifié par Terror_K, 17 septembre 2012 - 01:35 .

[kellyofthemagi]

WOW! The negativeness of this thread is smothering to say the least. The game is not even officially been announced yet. In defense of the DA developement team they are veterans they know what they are doing and the direction in which the series is going. DA2 was the catalyst for the series.It was not a sequal to DAO. They are separate games in the same DA world. As the next will be a separate game. Some characters or bits a pieces of previous stories may appear but its not a Sequall! Bioware is a business, What do businesses do try to make money. Trying to appeal to more consumers is not wrong it was business. Not everyone makes the best disitions all the time and learn from mistakes. Hind sight is 20/20. I'm optimistic to the next installment of the series I have faith in the developement team for DA. And I Thank any of you here that share my optimism and that don't cry and whine about a game they didn't like. DA DEV TEAM THUMBS UP!!!!1

[Darth Death]

Terror_K wrote...

Debate is a waste of time... they won't listen. They're too damn invested in their new ways and too damn stubborn and blind to even see what's wrong, let alone do anything about it.

I definitely know how you feel, if it means anything. Couldn't agree more with your post. 

[ElitePinecone]

ianvillan wrote...
For me this is probably what caused the main problem, it was just seeing how in the interviews they had to go out of their way and critisize Origins and say how what they are implementing is a great improvement, yet when the game game out it never lived up to the claims and in many ways was worse than before.

Now we hear some of the same speak like best of both worlds and listening to feedback but I am not seeing anything but DA2 systems and direction.

For what it's worth, the stated reason they're taking such a long (long, long, long...) time to officially reveal anything new is precisely to avoid the trap of promising things they can't actually deliver, the idea - it looks like - is to back up that marketing speak with actual gameplay. I think it's probably wise - looking back at much of DA2's marketing there wasn't really a hint of how radically different it was from Origins in terms of scope or scale, or just how much had been affected by a shorter development time. The implicit assumption was that this was a sequel in name and content, and I don't think the developers adequately 'prepared' people for the reality of the game.

Some things obviously aren't going to be compromised on, but I'd think they're trying - at the very least - to avoid the mistakes of how DA2 was presented to fans of the series. 

(Though if I hear anything about generals, spartans or awesome buttons I might just pack up and abandon everything)

[ianvillan]

ElitePinecone wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
For me this is probably what caused the main problem, it was just seeing how in the interviews they had to go out of their way and critisize Origins and say how what they are implementing is a great improvement, yet when the game game out it never lived up to the claims and in many ways was worse than before.

Now we hear some of the same speak like best of both worlds and listening to feedback but I am not seeing anything but DA2 systems and direction.

For what it's worth, the stated reason they're taking such a long (long, long, long...) time to officially reveal anything new is precisely to avoid the trap of promising things they can't actually deliver, the idea - it looks like - is to back up that marketing speak with actual gameplay. I think it's probably wise - looking back at much of DA2's marketing there wasn't really a hint of how radically different it was from Origins in terms of scope or scale, or just how much had been affected by a shorter development time. The implicit assumption was that this was a sequel in name and content, and I don't think the developers adequately 'prepared' people for the reality of the game.

Some things obviously aren't going to be compromised on, but I'd think they're trying - at the very least - to avoid the mistakes of how DA2 was presented to fans of the series. 

(Though if I hear anything about generals, spartans or awesome buttons I might just pack up and abandon everything)

So I take it you are fine with Hot Rod Samurai    

[kellyofthemagi]

OMG!!! Everyone LOOK at Bioware Blog from today. WOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! ITs Announced!!!!!!!!

[Pedro Costa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Just to make sure we're clear here. You feel that people play the MP more because the SP is subpar, rather than because they think the MP is fun?

In my case, yes?
After being so disheartened with ME3's conclusion (sill am, even with the EC), I can't bring myself to replay the SP storyline, so the only way I could find to make my purchase (Digital Deluxe) not feel like I just threw money into the garbage bin was to give MP a chance, and... I ended up actually liking it.
Sadly, the constant disconnects, bugs, DLC/server checks hinder this greatly, but, all in all, MP ended up actually being fun.

Still, and to make sure my point goes across, although I find MP fun after I gave it a chance, I only started playing it because the SP is, well, bad. If it were everything its development team said it would be, I very much doubt I'd have invested much time, if any at all, on ME3's MP.

As far as DA multiplayer goes, I was a very vehement supporter of no-MP in ME3, and, as I stated, for me it ended up being ME3's only redeeming feature (not saying there weren't great moments in the SP campaign, only that I can't bring myself to replay them knowing how it all ends, so they end up having no value at all), so I'll wait and see what the DA team will come up with, after all, this is the game that will "make or break" BioWare for me.

[The_11thDoctor]

I hope it has both co-op and MP. I dont understand why keep 2 amazing modes out of a current gen game? They had a separate team make co-op in ME3 and it turned out better than the SP honestly... despite its huge flaws in the shop system. There are tons of amazing RPGs with Co-Op. I wish people stop playing with clubs and sharpened rock arrows and join 2012, but there will always be that 1 guy right?

[ZeshinX]

An online component taking the form of inevitable activation and patch/DLC delivery - I will likely give this one a chance.

An online component taking the form of MP gameplay in any form (coop, online deathmatch, whatever) - no sale and I stop buying any game published by or in any way funded by EA.

I will not support the idea that an online component is essential with my dollars.

[Elohim_07]

Multiplayer in Dragon Age III.

So far there's a lot of fire cast in this topic about the Multiplayer. While I was praying to The Maker, I receive this message for all:

(yeah right!)....

Instead of arguing about what is bad of EA being the driver of such changes, (at the end is business and the one with the Big pocket rules the servants), lets try to pass this "woods of shadows" together and turn it into the next Hight heaven...

I would like to contribute some "specifics" about what could help develope a Social Interaction in the game (if required):

• MP or Co-Op - If any of that kind, not matter how deep, don't kill the Single Player experience requiring an Internet connection at all. The SP experience should be separated from the MP addition. It could be an add-on to the SP but not a requirement. Many games add quickmatches to create parties to play a MP that often ends up in a bad experience when the guy behind your "team player" control is giving you head-aches intead. Dragon's Dogma feels like you play with other players but thank The Maker they play intelligent compared to a random out there looking to loot and not share at all the idea of team gaming. The concept of MP invite me cause I often play online games with my wife. This cost me twice but if worth it I don't mind at all.
• Disconnetcs - inevitable? If not what does it mean... that the game freeze out or can't be played until re-starting? If that's the case don't do MP or Co-op. If you do please consider the inevitable and keep the game running even when the host leaves. Maybe a "Host Migration" like Ghost Recon Future Soldier has in their game can help.
• Friends Only - If randoms can doom an MP experience, specially when it is a RPG where looting is a most and fighting for an item is probable, why not adding a friends only option to the MP game options? Or give the hosting player the capability of "kicking" players out. Maybe clan options (this one will definetly provoke competition in the Leaderboards, if any).
• Max players - Please don't overwhelm the experience with lag connections. The more player the more lag and trouble the game gets. Keep it low (suggest 4 max).
• Challenging - Just create the right formula so if I'm lvl 5 and my friend is lvl 40 enemies can give both a challenging experience and not a frustrated one. How to do this, ideas are welcome cause I know nothing about it! But having this friend that kill everything while I die constantly because of the lvl difference will be annoying.

What you guys think about it and how would it be a great MP/Co-op/Social experience in the next DA title?

Modifié par Elohim_07, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:50 .

[cJohnOne]

There's a DA3 Inquistion forum. Did you post in the right spot? Why not start your own thread?

[Elohim_07]

cJohnOne wrote...

There's a DA3 Inquistion forum. Did you post in the right spot? Why not start your own thread?

Because that is what noobs do right?

I'll copy it to the corresponding area then... thanks!

[BringSomeGoodCo-opRPGs]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BioWare died for me as a company when they included multiplayer in Baldur's Gate. Both of them.

But you still bought their game, even Mass Effect 3.

[FaWa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's disingenuous for BioWare to give fans the type of game their after one moment, then take it away the next with the supposed sequel for the sake of appealing to an audience that already has plenty on their plates as it is.

For the last time, the audiences overlap. Mass Effect fans are the ones enjoying the Mass Effect multiplayer.

People enjoy Mass Effect Multiplayer?

[Ferretinabun]

FaWa wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's disingenuous for BioWare to give fans the type of game their after one moment, then take it away the next with the supposed sequel for the sake of appealing to an audience that already has plenty on their plates as it is.

For the last time, the audiences overlap. Mass Effect fans are the ones enjoying the Mass Effect multiplayer.

People enjoy Mass Effect Multiplayer?

Much more than I ever thought I would. So I'll not bemoaning about any potential DA MP until I've played it. It might be great.