224 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

JesseLee202 wrote...

This thread needs to ascend.

Agreed there too. Man we really think alike!

Modifié par pirate1802, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Vigilant111]

Rhayak wrote...

Shepard had a choice not to choose synthesis

Uh, yeah, and water is wet. That doesn't really work to disprove my point.

BTW, your example is crap... you equate synthesis as something benevolent when there is no way you can ascertain that.

Actually, there is no way to ascertain it isn't. In the ending cinematic, Synthesis IS benevolent. Period. The only thing you can do is entrench yourself in the baseless assumption that the populace gets brainwashed, like most Synthesis bashers do. That and/or some up with inconsistent headcanon.

May I ask why you didn't say that the bomb was actually for napalm instead of cancel curing? Your analogy is utter useless when it is not objective

Uh.... because if i said napalm, THEN it wouldn't have been objective. Duh.

Seriously where the hell is TAO? She'd oppose me but at least she'd understand.

Dude, I get you, okay? is that clear? Telling people they are stupid doesn't help your case, yeah synthesis is benevolent so are other options. Baseless assumptions? like you don't have any other than some fanfic?

Oh? so you got my point, you recognise its all subjective, right? then you must realise how incredibly crap your analogy is then

Modifié par Vigilant111, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[ghost9191]

pirate1802 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

This thread needs to ascend.

Agreed there too. Man we really think alike!

At least your little back and forth made me laugh a bit:lol:

[DirtyPhoenix]

Its all subjective.. All options are right yet all options are wrong. Choose your nightmare and live through it..

[DirtyPhoenix]

ghost9191 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

This thread needs to ascend.

Agreed there too. Man we really think alike!

I'm prepared for ascension.

Excellent!

[ghost9191]

Son Of A ...  

[DirtyPhoenix]

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

[zambot]

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

And thousands of examples throughout human history.

[His Name was HYR!!]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

without Reapers we wouldn´t forced to built the Crucible and wouldn´t forced to choose from Catalyst´s dinner menu.

When did that happen?

Last I checked, those options came from the thing we created: the Crucible. Options that the Catalyst can't influence past offering his $0.02 on the matter.

Actually the choices come from the Citadel, and by extension the Catalyst, since i doubt that Crucible engineers went and created the two terminals in the end game themselves.

Nope, they come from the Crucible!




The only one that you can make a case for originating with the Citadel/Catalyst is synthesis.

[Lisa_H]

The Catalyst says it can not be forced, but I disagree. I do not for one second believe that every single being in the galaxy wanted to be changed(just look at how many people on this forum thinks it is abhorrent) Javik for once hates synthetics. People are never able to agree on anything to belive that every single being would agree to be changed to a half synthetic being is ridiculous

[Rhayak]

Telling people they are stupid doesn't help your case

I'm not doing that to help my case.

yeah synthesis is benevolent so are other options.

No they are not. Destroy murders the Geth and EDI, Refuse murders everyone, and Control is a shade of grey.

like you don't have any other than some fanfic?

dude.... i'm basing my whole point on the ending cinematic, NOT on subjective opinions. Are you even reading my posts in full?

dude, i get you, okay? is that clear?

If you don't think there's an analogy between the cure bomb and Synthesis, then not only you didn't get me at all, but you probably can't or plain refuse to.

[Queenie4000]

wizardryforever wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

The problem I have is that I'm supposed to just take his word for it that we are ready. In the few minutes I spend talking to him, he's already shown me that his judgements and grasp of deductive reasoning are lacking.

Even if I did have faith in his ability to arrive at conclusions via sound logic, I would require evidence to back up his assertions, which he seems loathe to give me. He could explain why he thinks we are ready in more detail, but he doesn't. Whether or not that is his fault or due to the limited time we apparently have is irrelevant; I will not make such an extraordinary decision without extraordinary evidence.

That's the thing though.  Most people are willing to believe what he says about everything else, or at least believe that he believes it, but they suddenly get skeptical when he brings up synthesis.  If we take what the Catalyst says with a grain of salt, then pretty much everything he says is called into question.

Besides, he cites why he knows that synthesis cannot be forced: he tried it before and it failed every time.  Presumably, because he tried to force it on an un-ready galaxy.  Interestingly, he doesn't say what happened to the previous cycles that he tried to actually force synthesis on.  They were of course harvested, but what were the results of the failure?  One's headcanon of that answer could play a significant part in making your choice without metagaming.

But of course, when we actually watch the synthesis ending, we see that it worked perfectly, as intended.  So clearly, the galaxy actually was ready.

And of course if we watch the control and destroy ending through the cut scences we aslo see that those options "worked perfectly, as intended" (in so far as doing to the universe what was told to us).  I think the biggest problem is that we all have our own way of seeing things, wanting things to go a certain way.  Without knowing if Bioware ever really meant for there to be a "cannon ending" (which I don't - I think these endings were specifically intended to give each of us our own ending) we cannot make others agree with the ending that we choose.  So no matter how rational you may believe your point to be, for those who simply do not like, did not choose syntheses there really is no way to sway their opinion.

[zambot]

Queenie4000 wrote...

And of course if we watch the control and destroy ending through the cut scences we aslo see that those options "worked perfectly, as intended" (in so far as doing to the universe what was told to us).  I think the biggest problem is that we all have our own way of seeing things, wanting things to go a certain way.  Without knowing if Bioware ever really meant for there to be a "cannon ending" (which I don't - I think these endings were specifically intended to give each of us our own ending) we cannot make others agree with the ending that we choose.  So no matter how rational you may believe your point to be, for those who simply do not like, did not choose syntheses there really is no way to sway their opinion.

QFT.  Different endings for different folks.  Bioware makes it crystal clear that each ends the reaper threat.  You get to end it on 4 different terms, and if you don't like any of those terms, that really is too bad that Bioware let you down.  There's no need to bash on endings other people like.  Unless you really do enjoy being a jackhat.  Then that's a reason I guess.

[Isichar]

"No it isnt"
"Yes it is"
"No it isnt stupid"
"yes it is idiot"
"No it isnt moron"

...

Seems like Ieldra2 is the only poster in this thread that is willing to actually discuss anything.

[paul165]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...
Yes, Synthesis is forced. And yes, the results vastly compensate the absence of popular vote.
Shepard makes the leap of faith and everyone in the Galaxy is shot with green energy. Love it or hate it, now you got green DNA.

As i said sometime ago, if a mad scientist set off a bomb that did nothing except making everyone in the world immune to cancer, forever, would people **** and moan because he "didn't have the right"?

The answer is a resounding yes.... but now you can't get cancer, douchebag. Perhaps after a few generations your descendants will have grown the brains to feel thankful.

This sums up my thoughts about it perfectly. There's a war for survival, and Synthesis doesn't just end it, it also upgrades everyone with the ability to integrate technology and gives access to a treasure trove of knowledge that puts the sum of all Prothean beacons to shame - and people complain because they didn't ask for it. Call me a cynic, but people complaining about something good is a consequence I can live with very well.

As for the line "It cannot be forced", I interpret that as "if you're not ready, the results will be less than satisfactory or it won't work at all." It has nothing to do with the moral dimension of the decision. If you make the decision for the whole galaxy, then you force the change on everyone.

And the price for access to that knowledge is horrific.

You have sentient husks, banshees, brutes - can we say body horror? Yes, yes we can.
The species that was trying to exterminate you is now wandering around your cities and everyone is just supposed to be okay with that?

Yes the knowledge is nice but the cost the galaxy pays is beyond anything even the most mad scientist would willingly accept.

Especially since control gives you access to most of the "good" aspects - knowledge and rebuilding without the body horror of synthesis.

That of course disregards the whole synthesis as written makes very little sense - I am aware Ieldra2 has had a play with and headcanoned it into something far more sane but as written everything is affected by synthesis. Armour, animals, plants. I'm sure the apple tree outside my window as I write this is really "ready" for synthesis not to mention all the fridge logic that synthesised plants and animals generate.

And hey you think uplifting the krogan was bad congratulations you have just uplifted everyone.

[Kamfrenchie]

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

[Kamfrenchie]

paul165 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...
Yes, Synthesis is forced. And yes, the results vastly compensate the absence of popular vote.
Shepard makes the leap of faith and everyone in the Galaxy is shot with green energy. Love it or hate it, now you got green DNA.

As i said sometime ago, if a mad scientist set off a bomb that did nothing except making everyone in the world immune to cancer, forever, would people **** and moan because he "didn't have the right"?

The answer is a resounding yes.... but now you can't get cancer, douchebag. Perhaps after a few generations your descendants will have grown the brains to feel thankful.

This sums up my thoughts about it perfectly. There's a war for survival, and Synthesis doesn't just end it, it also upgrades everyone with the ability to integrate technology and gives access to a treasure trove of knowledge that puts the sum of all Prothean beacons to shame - and people complain because they didn't ask for it. Call me a cynic, but people complaining about something good is a consequence I can live with very well.

As for the line "It cannot be forced", I interpret that as "if you're not ready, the results will be less than satisfactory or it won't work at all." It has nothing to do with the moral dimension of the decision. If you make the decision for the whole galaxy, then you force the change on everyone.

And the price for access to that knowledge is horrific.

You have sentient husks, banshees, brutes - can we say body horror? Yes, yes we can.
The species that was trying to exterminate you is now wandering around your cities and everyone is just supposed to be okay with that?

Yes the knowledge is nice but the cost the galaxy pays is beyond anything even the most mad scientist would willingly accept.

Especially since control gives you access to most of the "good" aspects - knowledge and rebuilding without the body horror of synthesis.

That of course disregards the whole synthesis as written makes very little sense - I am aware Ieldra2 has had a play with and headcanoned it into something far more sane but as written everything is affected by synthesis. Armour, animals, plants. I'm sure the apple tree outside my window as I write this is really "ready" for synthesis not to mention all the fridge logic that synthesised plants and animals generate.

And hey you think uplifting the krogan was bad congratulations you have just uplifted everyone.

the knoledge of previous cycles i useless anyway, excet as a curiosity.

They only existd for 50k years and their tech devlopment was similar bcause basedoff the relays and eezo

[BatmanPWNS]

Nothing in the synthesis makes sense. Even Bioware know it doesn't make sense.

[knightnblu]

"This doesn't jive with the popular "synthesis forces a change on the galaxy!" line of logic that is so prevalent. It flat-out contradicts it, in fact. Of course, people try to backpedal and twist the words the Catalyst uses to mean that it needs a willing organic to initiate synthesis. That doesn't work either, because it is still being forced. The Catalyst doesn't say "I cannot force it" or "We cannot force it." he says "it is not something that can be forced." Implying that nobody can force it."

Apples and oranges. Being ready for something doesn't mean that the sentience of an organic consents to it. For example, once a female menses she is ready to be impregnated. However, that says nothing about her willing to be impregnated. In the case of synthesis, you operate under the false assumption that the Catalyst can authorize an action of the part of Shepard because he states that the galaxy is ready to be fundamentally altered.

In another context, any woman of age is ready for sexual intercourse. But that doesn't mean that you have a blanket invitation to avail yourself of that fact because she has never expressed consent. Alternatively, if I am ready to die does that entitle you to kill me?

Further, the Catalyst offers no argument for his opinion. You state your case as a matter of fact when it clearly is not so. Indeed, it has never been established that the Catalyst is truthful. I have already proven that the Catalyst is an insane AI and the Leviathan DLC states that it is running experiments on the galaxy in order to answer a question. Yet, you would have us assign it's opinion as fact and follow the course it wishes us to follow by fundamentally altering all organic life in the galaxy without so much as even asking for another opinion before you commit.

I have asked on these boards numerous times and I shall ask now once more, if the violation of the physical self is wrong then how much more wrong is the violation of the essence of the self? Is that not a far deeper violation? Yet nobody has ever addressed that question. They just say "Synthesis is the way to go dude!" and cannot understand the many objections to the choice.

Factor in that there are two other choices that do not rape every individual in the galaxy and your position erodes even further. If you prefer synthesis in the style of Bentham, then more power to you. But I submit that if this situation were real there would be nowhere in the galaxy you could hide from the wrath of the people you forcibly changed and if Bentham were alive he would be after you as well.

[wizardryforever]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

I don't think it ever shows or claims that the behavioral changes happen instantly.  The slides happen an indefinite period of time after the end.  Maybe it's a few days, maybe it's several months or even years.  We just don't know.

[Steve The Seal]

wizardryforever wrote...
Shepard asks the Catalyst why it never tried synthesis before, and the Catalyst responds that it did, but every attempt failed.  To which Shepard asks "Why?"  "Because they were not ready.  It is not something that can be. . . forced.  You are ready." 

Why weren't the former cycles ready? Why is this present cycle ready? What does it specificly mean to be ready? Ready for change (mentally)? Ready to end the experiment (what the catalyst does)? Geneticly ready?

This: "It is not something that can be. . . forced" can be undersood in different ways... Former cycles probably did not enjoy the idea of being probed by giant robot squids... Probably means, that shepard needs to accept synthesis on behalf of this cycle, so it's not forced onto by the reapers, but by shepard... 
And of course it's forced! A "Terms of Agreement"-Window did not suddenly apear in front of each individual, who themselves press the button for either "I Agree" or "I Disagree"... It's forced as long as each individual can't decide whether or not they want to be synthesized...

[Kamfrenchie]

wizardryforever wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

I don't think it ever shows or claims that the behavioral changes happen instantly.  The slides happen an indefinite period of time after the end.  Maybe it's a few days, maybe it's several months or even years.  We just don't know.

then the slides do a poor job
But seing as yor crew doesn't appear to have aged at all, it seems to happen right after everyone ge hit by the wave. Als notce how no one eem t be hostile to the reapers as soon as they have the geen flashy stuff on them
even years after, do you think people would be ok with living in the same society as giant genocidal machines?

[christrek1982]

A fair point but shepard dies so that rule it out for me and it may be selfish or childish but I don't want my shepard to die in the end but thats just me and I am a little upset that the only ending in witch shepard can live isn't given anywhere near as much care and attention as control and synthesis is.

[Oni Changas]

Am I the onlh one who finds irony in this statement? The forced being in the fored story saying this?

[JesseLee202]

pirate1802 wrote...

I'm a foolish bosh'tet! 

Well, you don't have to go that far...