224 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

wizardryforever wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

I don't think it ever shows or claims that the behavioral changes happen instantly.  The slides happen an indefinite period of time after the end.  Maybe it's a few days, maybe it's several months or even years.  We just don't know.

We do know. According to Bioware, the early slides start at about 10-15 years after the end of the war and the later slides up to 200 years later.

[NKKKK]

The hate here is strong.

[Podge 90]

So are we all decided that Synthesis is silly?

[Ieldra]

Podge 90 wrote...
So are we all decided that Synthesis is silly?

No.

[jstme]

"Cycle is ready" and thus it is not forced is just an excuse. I am glad that it works for you but it certainly does not work for me.
What is cycle,after all? If Mr Jack Jackson does not want to have his whole organism suddenly change into totally different life form - it is forced on him.
If drosophilidae does not want the change - it is forced on it.
How about - Catalyst can't force it because it is shackled but here comes usefull idiot Shepard - first organic to stand there and s/he is stupid enough to jump and disintegrate in the beam because his arch-enemy just suggested that.
And suddenly this cycle is ready to be cleansed of all organic life and to create various phsychological traumas to unsuspecting syntethics.
Any way you try to twist it - synthesis is forced on individuals,races, species, life forms and forms of existance.
It is not forced on cycle? Maybe - since cycle is just a name for a  period of time.

Modifié par jstme, 06 septembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Suspire]

tumblr post (WARNING FOR PROFANITY -not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

(edit 2: just a warning for the language, don't wanna get myself banned for nothing)

Modifié par Suspire, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[Lisa_H]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

I liked that post it summed it up good

[JPR1964]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

Thanks, nice one!

JPR out!

[Mcfly616]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I prefer destroy....but there's no problem with synthesis


I mean, unless you have a problem with "the Force" or "beam me up, Scotty", and the Hendrix song in Starbucks head leading to earth

its called Sci Fi....sh*t gets trippy some times, it can get out there, and some times some of it is left unexplained or up to interpretation


A lot of people on these forums, seemingly have little experience with the genre

Sometimes not all the time even the force got explained stop using that arguement sci fi is not science fantasy. Yes they do sometimes cross but not always and not without a crap ton of foreshadowing to make it work usually.
That last bit is just pretencious.

yeah....the force got explained about as much as you proclaim synthesis did. And guess what, it made no f*cking sense. I dont really care what you consider sci fi and "fantasy", as every Space Opera that has ever been created, always incorporates fantastical elements into the story.

Crap ton of foreshadowing? Ha I can think of countless instances when foreshadowing wasn't used and it was better for it.

Usually?....maybe....sometimes.....you sure you're 100% behind your argument? Because you don't seem it

"Pretencious". Oooh...I care? Lol

I pefer Asimov

really? Then you should know that the the ending of Mass Effect 3 and the setting for the Catalyst conversation as well as the 3 choices, are highly inspired by a specific Asimov story....

In fact, you could say the whole concept for the ending was ripped straight from Asimov's book, and Bioware just filled in their own dialogue.

I'm glad you brought it up though. One of the reasons I love the EC ending is because of the correlations between it and Asimov

[Kamfrenchie]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

I don't think it ever shows or claims that the behavioral changes happen instantly.  The slides happen an indefinite period of time after the end.  Maybe it's a few days, maybe it's several months or even years.  We just don't know.

We do know. According to Bioware, the early slides start at about 10-15 years after the end of the war and the later slides up to 200 years later.

link please ? also, everyone could be indoctrinated:wizard:
still, you let genocidal warmachines around, terrible idea

[Mcfly616]

To those still arguing over, "it cannot be forced.....you are ready"


You're reading way too much into it. Shepard represents every organic being. Shepard is the Avatar of this cycle. He is the only organic ever to reach the Catalyst. He united the entire galaxy in order to do so. The races of the galaxy follow him. Therefore we are "ready"

It's called symbolism.....look it up.




.....but I still chose Destroy lol

Modifié par Mcfly616, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Steve The Seal]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

hmm interesting.. It actually made me think about the transition from synthetic to half synthetic and half organic... Because funny enough, to be considered an organic, your body needs to be driven by organs (surpise it lies in the word itself ), muscle tissue and so on... So for the synthetics to become hybrids, the green beam should insert certain organs into the synthetic... Probably a brain mostly, for them to get organic features (emotions and whatever)... but the brain need oxygen and nutriage... so probably also a heart, lungs, blood for O2 to travel to the brain, stomach, intestines, maybe kidneys too and a bladder.. I guess that should do it... 

[wizardryforever]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

I don't even know how to respond to the level of bull**** in that rant.  There's just so much wrong with it that is contradicted by what we are shown and told in-game, especially in the epilogue itself.  Suffice to say, the rule in my sig applies in full force here.  People are ignoring what we are given and make up crap to justify their hatred.  If there is ever a negative interpretation of anything, that's the thing that people jump on, while ignoring the vast amounts of positive that make the negative seem microscopic by comparision. 

[His Name was HYR!!]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

Okay everyone, circlejerk at once! 

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[JPR1964]

wizardryforever wrote...

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

I don't even know how to respond to the level of bull**** in that rant.  There's just so much wrong with it that is contradicted by what we are shown and told in-game, especially in the epilogue itself.  Suffice to say, the rule in my sig applies in full force here.  People are ignoring what we are given and make up crap to justify their hatred.  If there is ever a negative interpretation of anything, that's the thing that people jump on, while ignoring the vast amounts of positive that make the negative seem microscopic by comparision. 

I don't believe in jerk mass insulting others for having their own opinion...

Believe it or not : you're a good example of your own sig, you just believe Bioware and their craphorse patched, copypasted endings...

Have fun...

JPR out!

Modifié par JPR1964, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Suspire]

Well to me your sig applies to yourself, so really we all should just agree to disagree and realize we'll never see eye to eye on this, instead of "here let me show how you're wrong" with this type of thread

[inversevideo]

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

Wow! Thanks for posting that.

The author sums up my feelings quite eloquently.

I'm often shocked at the ease with which people say they would choose synthesis without any thought towards the fact that they are introducing changes to people on a genetic level, without the consent of those folks, or even much thought to the possible repercussions.   

It's a bit unnerving to tell the truth. You wonder how many folks have jobs, in the real world, that might allow them to make analogous choices? You know like bio-genetics, or working on the Hadron Collider?  I mean could you imagine if some physicist, working on the Hadron Collider, decided to carry out an experiment that might have impact to everyone on Earth, even if the possiblity is small? Like say create a mini-blackhole? 
I know no one would take the risk of moving forward with such an experiment in real life, so ...oh ...wait what?

Sorry, back on track, I do wonder how many people, who say that they would choose synthesis, with only 5 minutes to examine the proposition, and they would do so without meta-gaming, would repeat the choice if Bioware showed the result of synthesis, not to be shiny happy beings of luminous green eyes, but people screaming in agony, civilization grinding to a halt, the galaxy condemned to a slow and horrific demise; and Starkid proclaiming this cycle is now at an end? 

Modifié par inversevideo, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[wizardryforever]

JPR1964 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

I don't even know how to respond to the level of bull**** in that rant.  There's just so much wrong with it that is contradicted by what we are shown and told in-game, especially in the epilogue itself.  Suffice to say, the rule in my sig applies in full force here.  People are ignoring what we are given and make up crap to justify their hatred.  If there is ever a negative interpretation of anything, that's the thing that people jump on, while ignoring the vast amounts of positive that make the negative seem microscopic by comparision. 

I don't believe in jerk mass insulting others for having their own opinion...

Believe it or not : you're a good example of your own sig, you just believe Bioware and their craphorse patched, copypasted endings...

Have fun...

JPR out!

Only everything we are told and shown in-game actually backs up what I've been saying, while people have to "fridge" everything they've been countering with.  IE headcanon.

But yes, I am growing weary of this back and forth.

[Suspire]

It's Borg to me, pretty much. And the ME3 writers have no idea what "evolution" means, either (it's pretty funny)
And I added a warning for the profanity to that link, sorry about that folks

Modifié par Suspire, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:36 .

[Warrior Craess]

I'm still waiting for the answer about how it isn't forced. Not everyone would be happy about becoming a hybrid. Some people consider an un-augmented body that has reach a certain level to be perfect, and would be highly upset if it was augmented against their will.

secondly What about the reaper forces. Even if a husk can be re-incorporated into society, what about Cannibals? What about Brutes? They are both Hybrid synthetic's already, now they've regained their "humanity" umm now what? you have a batarian, with a living weapon (who just happens to be a human) instead of an arm, I'm sure they are going to be over freaking joyed at regaining consciousness. And Brutes, the body of a krogan, with the head of a turian. How are they going to fit back into this society.

These Hybrid race synthetics can they breed now? Or are they sterile? What if they had kids? What if the human converted into a weapon, improved to be aware again had kids?

You all look at synthesis as if it solves all the issues, and yet fail to grasp the possible consequences of Shepard forcing a change on to the galaxy.

Not only is it forced the many of the results are abhorrent.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[inversevideo]

wizardryforever wrote...

Suspire wrote...

tumblr post (not my post, but pretty spot on for me)
(edit: I had linked the wrong post lol)

I don't even know how to respond to the level of bull**** in that rant.  There's just so much wrong with it that is contradicted by what we are shown and told in-game, especially in the epilogue itself.  Suffice to say, the rule in my sig applies in full force here.  People are ignoring what we are given and make up crap to justify their hatred.  If there is ever a negative interpretation of anything, that's the thing that people jump on, while ignoring the vast amounts of positive that make the negative seem microscopic by comparision. 

Wizard, you missed the point.  

I understand what you have been saying, even if you don't understand our concern.
I don't believe in Synthesis, for me it is wrong on many levels.

But, where we do agree, is that Synthesis, as presented by Bioware is a wonderful thing.
It is obvious that this is the choice Bioware wants you to make. The choice is labelled 'green'. 
A new color. Green = life. So right away, you are being shown that you have a new choice, right?
You can be 'shackled' to the same old paragon=blue, renegade=red choices, or you can chose something new, life, maybe even life eternal. So far so good?

And when you make the 'green' choice you are rewarded with lots of shiny happy beings, whose green luminosity spills out of their eyes, the windows to their souls. EDI and Jeff are blissful together, old enemies are friends now, and EDI delivers the 'money shot' in her speech.

We all get that.  

But I submit to you sir, that you are meta-gaming, when you say this choice is the correct one.

What the 'rant' and many of us have been trying to say, is that if you do not meta-game, that is, you do not know how your choice would turn out, prior to your making it, then how did you arrive at the decision to change every living thing in the galaxy, on a fundamental level, their very genetic structure, by merging them with machines?

What existed, in Shepard's experiece, in the prior 2 games, and the 40+ hours of ME3 leading up to this point, that would convince you to make this bargain, with Starkid, and do this? 

This is the piece that I am having problems with. Please understand, this is not an attack, role-play your Shepard however you want. But,  I am serious, when I say,  I don't get it.  I can tell you I would not be happy if you did that to me IRL.  

This is not about the end results, which, as you say, Bioware has made into nirvana, paradise, all light and enlightenment. We get that.

This is about the decision itself. How did you get there? Because the choice to go the Synthesis route, the choice, not the result, is wrong. All across this globe, we have governments making choices, against the wishes of the people, or without any consent for their thoughts on the matter. We are spared such trespasses, in most western countries, but not everyone on the planet is so lucky.

If you, not Shepard, you, actually were faced with this choice, with the outcome deciding the well being of your family, your significant other, or child, would you be comfortable making a decision that would alter them physically? It could be wonderful, or it could leave them horribly deformed. You don't know, you have 5 minutes to decide. Do you even have the right to make such a choice on behalf of another person?

You see where I am going? You do not have the right to mess with people like that, whether you are Shepard, or 'The State'.  The ends do not always justify the means.  It really feels, to me, that Shepard, in making the Synthesis choice, has sold his soul to a Reaper; regardless of the fact that everything turns out pretty.  He sold his soul, for a 'green' ending.  But the ends do not always justify the means. You do see that, right?  

Modifié par inversevideo, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[George Costanza]

^Well said that man.

Personally, I didn't even get to the point where I was thinking about the ethical implications of choosing Synthesis. My brain was melted from the sheer stupidity of it as an option. Regardless of how delightfully it can pan out, and how we can all be happy, green eyed friends, getting along and having bridge nights with Harbinger, the entire idea of how Synthesis is achieved is incredible. Literally incredible.

Common sense just goes out of the window. It might as well be a button that shoots out rainbow space lasers and turns everyone in the galaxy into iced cream sandwiches. It's that ridiculous.

[AlexMBrennan]

The Catalyst doesn't say "I cannot force it" or "We cannot force it." he says "it is not something that can be forced." Implying that nobody can force it.

As much as the above is rooted in in-game facts

No, it is rooted in something one guy says. The bad guy. So your theory is all very well, but the simple explanation is : It is forced, and Catalyst is wrong.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 06 septembre 2012 - 11:09 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We do know. According to Bioware, the early slides start at about 10-15 years after the end of the war and the later slides up to 200 years later.

clarification via twitter?

sounds like "bioware."

[wizardryforever]

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it.