224 réponses à ce sujet

[Kamfrenchie]

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it. 

i'm sorry but i must disagree on bioware's ability to craft choice. All but refuse an destoy mke no sense, as we've been fighting gaint control the whole tme, and synthesis just sk you to throw your logic out th window.

There is really nothin challnging in these choices.

Geth vs quarans would be better.

For better choices, there is Alpha protocol

[Warrior Craess]

Warrior Craess wrote...

I'm still waiting for the answer about how it isn't forced. Not everyone would be happy about becoming a hybrid. Some people consider an un-augmented body that has reach a certain level to be perfect, and would be highly upset if it was augmented against their will.

secondly What about the reaper forces. Even if a husk can be re-incorporated into society, what about Cannibals? What about Brutes? They are both Hybrid synthetic's already, now they've regained their "humanity" umm now what? you have a batarian, with a living weapon (who just happens to be a human) instead of an arm, I'm sure they are going to be over freaking joyed at regaining consciousness. And Brutes, the body of a krogan, with the head of a turian. How are they going to fit back into this society.

These Hybrid race synthetics can they breed now? Or are they sterile? What if they had kids? What if the human converted into a weapon, improved to be aware again had kids?

You all look at synthesis as if it solves all the issues, and yet fail to grasp the possible consequences of Shepard forcing a change on to the galaxy.

Not only is it forced the many of the results are abhorrent.

Still waiting for someone to answer..

[Wayning_Star]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

I'm still waiting for the answer about how it isn't forced. Not everyone would be happy about becoming a hybrid. Some people consider an un-augmented body that has reach a certain level to be perfect, and would be highly upset if it was augmented against their will.

secondly What about the reaper forces. Even if a husk can be re-incorporated into society, what about Cannibals? What about Brutes? They are both Hybrid synthetic's already, now they've regained their "humanity" umm now what? you have a batarian, with a living weapon (who just happens to be a human) instead of an arm, I'm sure they are going to be over freaking joyed at regaining consciousness. And Brutes, the body of a krogan, with the head of a turian. How are they going to fit back into this society.

These Hybrid race synthetics can they breed now? Or are they sterile? What if they had kids? What if the human converted into a weapon, improved to be aware again had kids?

You all look at synthesis as if it solves all the issues, and yet fail to grasp the possible consequences of Shepard forcing a change on to the galaxy.

Not only is it forced the many of the results are abhorrent.

Still waiting for someone to answer..

The situation in the MEU leaves for little to few 'choices'. So a simi synthetic reality isn't a choice so much as a demand from all concerned. Unfortunately, arguements notwithstanding, Synthesis is the only choice that actually removes the reapers as reapers. They are decommissioned at their own request. Sent out to do 'odd jobs' for the benifit of the MEU, without the harvest.  With sythesis, even their creator race, Leviathan, get a dose of human DNA from Shep, forever altering their perception of other organics and synthetic life forms as,in the least, acceptable peers. They haven't any for very long time,if ever.

You have to understand that the 'results' are not automatically in on synthesis, nore is it a super duper god send, converting all to some new life form. It's only an idea, sent out with force of nature. Similar to a big bang, only different and proposed by someone other than the known examples in the MEU. There is no clear cut choice, only the best guess. Hope and that Shep has had an epiphany that works...

edit: you're other questions about victims of the reaper harvest. It would be better to ask how the other choices deals with those. You have to 'play god' either way. It's that choices given you that decide just how civil you can be in that posistion. They would probably be helped as best could be under the circumstances, I doubt they'd be abandoned, or just illiminated coldly? It's really hard to tell what would become of those transmutated, Their cures would be foremost, whouldn't you think?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[TheWerdna]

KrAzY WiSh wrote...

Are you saying that Synthesis isn't forced onto everyone?

So what OP is saying, Starbrat is even more full of **** then we origonally thought, if he thinks the synthesis ending is not forced upon everyone.

[inversevideo]

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it. 

No problem! We are all passionate about ME, and no matter how you feel about the endings there are clearly lots of concepts being raised, worthy of discussion.  And lots of really intelligent folks willing to debate.

I've been exposed to many viewpoints, not all of them I agree with, but I honestly feel I learn something from the exposure. And BSN is at it's best, when it's classy!  

[Wayning_Star]

TheWerdna wrote...

KrAzY WiSh wrote...

Are you saying that Synthesis isn't forced onto everyone?

So what OP is saying, Starbrat is even more full of **** then we origonally thought, if he thinks the synthesis ending is not forced upon everyone.

What ,exactly, IS forced in synthesis? What IS synthesis? And how would we judge it's rewards if we're not sure of what it is in the first place? Besides, everything IN the MEU is forced on the MEU?  How/what do we quantify as forced upon everyone?

[Wayning_Star]

inversevideo wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it. 

No problem! We are all passionate about ME, and no matter how you feel about the endings there are clearly lots of concepts being raised, worthy of discussion.  And lots of really intelligent folks willing to debate.

I've been exposed to many viewpoints, not all of them I agree with, but I honestly feel I learn something from the exposure. And BSN is at it's best, when it's classy!  

ahhh, synthesis DOES work out OK..boy glad to hear that one for a change.. lol

well, at least on the BSN..sometimes..

[inversevideo]

Wayning_Star wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it. 

No problem! We are all passionate about ME, and no matter how you feel about the endings there are clearly lots of concepts being raised, worthy of discussion.  And lots of really intelligent folks willing to debate.

I've been exposed to many viewpoints, not all of them I agree with, but I honestly feel I learn something from the exposure. And BSN is at it's best, when it's classy!  

ahhh, synthesis DOES work out OK..boy glad to hear that one for a change.. lol

well, at least on the BSN..sometimes..

Nothing more to add. Would be like taking a whip to a deceased quadrupped.

Synthesis advocates believe in their choice, it's cool.
I'm fond of Destroy 

That said it really is good to get a perspective different from my own.

Now if you will excuse me, best for me to back out of here now, before I feel the urge to start singing Kumbaya.

Modifié par inversevideo, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Wayning_Star]

inversevideo wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, inversevideo, I don't know if I could.  The choice should be difficult, and it is.  Like someone said earlier, it is a leap of faith.  But the other two endings are leaps of faith as well, just of a lesser magnitude.  Using the Crucible at all is a leap of faith, but it is required in order to have any chance.  For those unable to make any leap of faith whatsoever, there's always refuse.  It's about weighing risk vs reward, then taking moral concerns into account.  The risk isn't really greater than that of Control, but the reward is so off the charts that several of my Shepards feel that it makes up for it.  I feel like the people who argue about "violations" are analogous to the people in The Incredibles who complain about minor damages despite having their lives saved by the heroes.  They miss the big picture.  "Accentuate the Negative" is the appropriate trope here, along with a few others that fit.

I fully respect those who apply a strict "no metagaming" policy with regard to their choices.  It's a perfectly valid playstyle and that's fine.  But I started this thread to address points made by fellow metagamers, not those folks. 

I do think that it speaks well of Bioware's ability to craft choices when they make the choice this difficult.  The bickering on the forum and in this very thread is proof of that, at least.

PS: Thanks for keeping it civil even when I lost my cool.  I appreciate it. 

No problem! We are all passionate about ME, and no matter how you feel about the endings there are clearly lots of concepts being raised, worthy of discussion.  And lots of really intelligent folks willing to debate.

I've been exposed to many viewpoints, not all of them I agree with, but I honestly feel I learn something from the exposure. And BSN is at it's best, when it's classy!  

ahhh, synthesis DOES work out OK..boy glad to hear that one for a change.. lol

well, at least on the BSN..sometimes..

Nothing more to add. Would be like taking a whip to a deceased quadrupped.

Synthesis advocates believe in their choice, it's cool.
I'm fond of Destroy 

That said it really is good to get a perspective different from my own.

Now if you will excuse me, best for me to back out of here now, before I feel the urge to start singing Kumbaya.

admit it,there's FEAR there..rofl

I must be one'o the first true renegades' to pick synthesis..heheh

[Warrior Craess]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

I'm still waiting for the answer about how it isn't forced. Not everyone would be happy about becoming a hybrid. Some people consider an un-augmented body that has reach a certain level to be perfect, and would be highly upset if it was augmented against their will.

secondly What about the reaper forces. Even if a husk can be re-incorporated into society, what about Cannibals? What about Brutes? They are both Hybrid synthetic's already, now they've regained their "humanity" umm now what? you have a batarian, with a living weapon (who just happens to be a human) instead of an arm, I'm sure they are going to be over freaking joyed at regaining consciousness. And Brutes, the body of a krogan, with the head of a turian. How are they going to fit back into this society.

These Hybrid race synthetics can they breed now? Or are they sterile? What if they had kids? What if the human converted into a weapon, improved to be aware again had kids?

You all look at synthesis as if it solves all the issues, and yet fail to grasp the possible consequences of Shepard forcing a change on to the galaxy.

Not only is it forced the many of the results are abhorrent.

Still waiting for someone to answer..

The situation in the MEU leaves for little to few 'choices'. So a simi synthetic reality isn't a choice so much as a demand from all concerned. Unfortunately, arguements notwithstanding, Synthesis is the only choice that actually removes the reapers as reapers. They are decommissioned at their own request. Sent out to do 'odd jobs' for the benifit of the MEU, without the harvest.  With sythesis, even their creator race, Leviathan, get a dose of human DNA from Shep, forever altering their perception of other organics and synthetic life forms as,in the least, acceptable peers. They haven't any for very long time,if ever.

You have to understand that the 'results' are not automatically in on synthesis, nore is it a super duper god send, converting all to some new life form. It's only an idea, sent out with force of nature. Similar to a big bang, only different and proposed by someone other than the known examples in the MEU. There is no clear cut choice, only the best guess. Hope and that Shep has had an epiphany that works...

edit: you're other questions about victims of the reaper harvest. It would be better to ask how the other choices deals with those. You have to 'play god' either way. It's that choices given you that decide just how civil you can be in that posistion. They would probably be helped as best could be under the circumstances, I doubt they'd be abandoned, or just illiminated coldly? It's really hard to tell what would become of those transmutated, Their cures would be foremost, whouldn't you think?

I don't support any of the endings. 
At least in control, I could remove the reaper ground forces from the equation, by simply keeping them inside the reaper ships. And as a bonus there isn't any chance that they are going to suddenly regain awareness.

However control would lead to war in short order. Esepcially if Shepard AI is as isolated as the Star Child was. If shepard can't tell everyone why the reapers stopped attacking, what exactly do you think everyone is going to be secretly working on?  a Way to kill reapers.  In the SC own words it's inevitable. And can't say as I really would expect anything different. 

Destroy - kills EDI and the Geth, though that may or may not be a sticking point. 

Sorry BW can paint a rosy picture all they want, and all it does is prove that they gave not a second consideration to what their choices actually mean. Crappy writing is crappy writing.

[plfranke]

I don't really understand the OP, I'm afraid. Are you saying, that simply because starkid says it is not something that can be forced, that means choosing synthesis is not forcing it on the galaxy? That's crazy talk. Just because he says something doesn't make it true.
Just like he says in control that Illusive Man could have never taken control, because they controlled him, but Shepard can. If they controlled the Illusive Man, and Illusive Man believed he could control the Reapers, that means starkid was forcing Illusive Man to believe something untrue. What's stopping him from doing the same thing here?

Kind of off topic but just wanted to get this out there - Catalyst is still at large in synthesis, so what's from stopping him from thinking in the future that synthesis was a failure and there's a higher form of evolution out there somewhere and the cycle must begin again?

[Mordak55]

Synthesis is BW's rainbow and unicorn ending, which is funny, given that anyone asking for a proper shep reunion scene in destroy is accused of wanting a happy disney ending.

That aside I am not convinced on synthesis even after EC DLC slide show, am waiting for it to go pear shaped.

[TheRealJayDee]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We do know. According to Bioware, the early slides start at about 10-15 years after the end of the war and the later slides up to 200 years later.

In which of their favourite not-in-the-game (or at least the BSN?!) channels did they say that?

As for Synthesis... still one of the most "wrong!" things I've ever seen in a video game. The way it's advertised by Bioware and presented in the EC it looks so shiny and great and happy, but once I start thinking about what is actually happening there and on what scale and... and...

[Kamfrenchie]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

I'm still waiting for the answer about how it isn't forced. Not everyone would be happy about becoming a hybrid. Some people consider an un-augmented body that has reach a certain level to be perfect, and would be highly upset if it was augmented against their will.

secondly What about the reaper forces. Even if a husk can be re-incorporated into society, what about Cannibals? What about Brutes? They are both Hybrid synthetic's already, now they've regained their "humanity" umm now what? you have a batarian, with a living weapon (who just happens to be a human) instead of an arm, I'm sure they are going to be over freaking joyed at regaining consciousness. And Brutes, the body of a krogan, with the head of a turian. How are they going to fit back into this society.

These Hybrid race synthetics can they breed now? Or are they sterile? What if they had kids? What if the human converted into a weapon, improved to be aware again had kids?

You all look at synthesis as if it solves all the issues, and yet fail to grasp the possible consequences of Shepard forcing a change on to the galaxy.

Not only is it forced the many of the results are abhorrent.

Still waiting for someone to answer..

The situation in the MEU leaves for little to few 'choices'. So a simi synthetic reality isn't a choice so much as a demand from all concerned. Unfortunately, arguements notwithstanding, Synthesis is the only choice that actually removes the reapers as reapers. They are decommissioned at their own request. Sent out to do 'odd jobs' for the benifit of the MEU, without the harvest.  With sythesis, even their creator race, Leviathan, get a dose of human DNA from Shep, forever altering their perception of other organics and synthetic life forms as,in the least, acceptable peers. They haven't any for very long time,if ever.

You have to understand that the 'results' are not automatically in on synthesis, nore is it a super duper god send, converting all to some new life form. It's only an idea, sent out with force of nature. Similar to a big bang, only different and proposed by someone other than the known examples in the MEU. There is no clear cut choice, only the best guess. Hope and that Shep has had an epiphany that works...

edit: you're other questions about victims of the reaper harvest. It would be better to ask how the other choices deals with those. You have to 'play god' either way. It's that choices given you that decide just how civil you can be in that posistion. They would probably be helped as best could be under the circumstances, I doubt they'd be abandoned, or just illiminated coldly? It's really hard to tell what would become of those transmutated, Their cures would be foremost, whouldn't you think?

ahah ! brainwashing / mind altering;

That is wronng too

victims of reaper harvst get to rest in peace

[Kamfrenchie]

Wayning_Star wrote...

TheWerdna wrote...

KrAzY WiSh wrote...

Are you saying that Synthesis isn't forced onto everyone?

So what OP is saying, Starbrat is even more full of **** then we origonally thought, if he thinks the synthesis ending is not forced upon everyone.

What ,exactly, IS forced in synthesis? What IS synthesis? And how would we judge it's rewards if we're not sure of what it is in the first place? Besides, everything IN the MEU is forced on the MEU?  How/what do we quantify as forced upon everyone?

srsly ?

the change of DNA, the alteration of people's entire body without their permssion, that's forced

[DirtyPhoenix]

plfranke wrote...

Catalyst is still at large in synthesis

How do you definitely know that?

Modifié par pirate1802, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:51 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Though I must say I haven't seen a single good argument in favour of synthesis brainwashing people other than former enemies getting along? Must be brainwashing! There can be a hundred reasons why former enemies may want to "get along".

I have never seen oppressed civlisation become friend instantly with their oppressor that were exterminating them the daay before.
French-German relationship after WW2 got progressively better, but it didn't happen in a day, and there was a purge of most **** officers and criminals.


To think the galaxy would instantly be frien with reapers who have ben attemptingto exterminate them either mean they are too dumb to live (possible/likely) or brainwashed

I don't think it ever shows or claims that the behavioral changes happen instantly.  The slides happen an indefinite period of time after the end.  Maybe it's a few days, maybe it's several months or even years.  We just don't know.

then the slides do a poor job
But seing as yor crew doesn't appear to have aged at all, it seems to happen right after everyone ge hit by the wave. Als notce how no one eem t be hostile to the reapers as soon as they have the geen flashy stuff on them
even years after, do you think people would be ok with living in the same society as giant genocidal machines?

In the destroy epilogue we see the citadel being restored in the time it takes your crew to (not) put your name up on the memorial wall. It doesn't take much to see the slides and memorial scene don't happen in chronological order.

Also, I think they confirmed it at SDCC, that the epilogue starts 10-15 years after the war and end at 200-300 years since. Also, there is no evidence of people "living" with reapers. That is your headcanon. All we see is reapers helping out them. They could have done any number of things after that.

Modifié par pirate1802, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[The Angry One]

pirate1802 wrote...

Also, I think they confirmed it at SDCC, that the epilogue starts 10-15 years after the war and end at 200-30 years since. Also, there is no evidence of people "living" with reapers. That is your headcanon. All we see is reapers helping out them. They could have done any number of things after that.

We see people happily running about with Reapers in the background. They are there, and we are told Reapers will join the galactic community. In fact, the Catalyst seems oddly certain of this.
Stop arguing about things that are plainly obvious to anyone who sees them because they don't suit your headcanon.

[DirtyPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

We see people happily running about with Reapers in the background. They are there, and we are told Reapers will join the galactic community. In fact, the Catalyst seems oddly certain of this.
Stop arguing about things that are plainly obvious to anyone who sees them because they don't suit your headcanon.

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilzations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us"

It talks of some sort of connection. It doesn't tell what the connection is, how, why, where does the connection originates and works, nothing. You are free to headcanon what is that and how that works. I still don't see how it clearly and obviously implies reapers are living next to me. You can headcanon them  to live next to you if you want, but yours is not the only valid one.

Modifié par pirate1802, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Kamfrenchie]

pirate1802 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

We see people happily running about with Reapers in the background. They are there, and we are told Reapers will join the galactic community. In fact, the Catalyst seems oddly certain of this.
Stop arguing about things that are plainly obvious to anyone who sees them because they don't suit your headcanon.

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilzations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us"

It talks of some sort of connection. It doesn't tell what the connection is, how, why, where does the connection originates and works, nothing. You are free to headcanon what is that and how that works. I still don't see how it clearly and obviously implies reapers are living next to me. You can headcanon them  to live next to you if you want, but yours is not the only valid one.

but the reapers are there in the slides

and surely being connected to reapers isn't something everyone would want, could also make indoctrination easier

[Verit]

pirate1802 wrote...
"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilzations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us"

Come to think of it, that last part is yet another horrifying thought. Whatever's left of those entire civilizations that were turned into goo isn't something I'd want to be "connected" with. Shepard's Paragon speech after destroying the Reaper on Rannoch actually states he/she wants those souls to rest in peace. That's also why I dislike Control.

wizardyforever wrote...
This doesn't jive with the popular "synthesis forces a change on the galaxy!" line of logic that is so prevalent.  It flat-out contradicts it, in fact.

Uhm, what? The only contradiction here is what the Catalyst says. Obviously Synthesis IS forced by its very definition. Just because the Catalyst says we're "ready" doesn't mean it's actually true. Legion argued against this kind of evolution in Mass Effect 2. He said the geth rejected the Reaper's proposal to force their evolution and turn them into a Reaper, even when that was more or less their goal. He argued that the process of getting there is as important as the results. Unfortunately Bioware had the Geth do the exact opposite in ME3, but the point was still valid. Mording also argued against a forced evolution like this, citing the uplifting of the Krogan as an example of what happens as a result. Yet all this suddenly doesn't matter in the end. And that's not even counting EDI's "I'm alive" speech, which again tramples on what we learn about EDI and Legion in ME2 and most of ME3. To me it's just another example of how utterly stupid the endings are.

Modifié par -Draikin-, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[SDW]

OP, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that people are indeed okay with synthesis - the Catalyst says so, and the Catalyst is the writers' tool for passing on this information. Thus, the writers respond to the pre-EC discussions about it being forced. They flatout say "If you'd ask them, they'd all be okay with it."
Okay, writers. I get it that you're telling us we don't need to worry, it's all been taken care of. And yes, the writers determine what is true and what isn't in this universe. If they say everybody lives happily ever after (and show us so in the slides), I must assume that's the case. And I want the story to end well ...

(I do wonder if that's really what it means, though - like someone else said: Could he please define "you" and "ready"?)

But ... that's ham-fisted. 
For one, it is unrealistic: The ME characters already have differing opinions on many matters. Should Shepard be granted help to fight against a mythical race ("Ah, yes, 'Reapers' ... we've dismissed that claim.")? Should the Krogans get a new chance and a cure? Should the Geth live? Should you allow or even unshackle AIs? Just think of the differing opinions your squadmates alone offer, e.g. on Legion's loyalty mission.www.youtube.com/watch
And now we should just believe that everybody suddenly has the same opinion? Even (as others have pointed out) characters like Javik? If the writers say they do, okay, but that's not the universe they've been presenting up to that point.
Then, how would the Catalyst even know that everybody is ready? He's just an AI, not someone with direct access to people's minds. With all his powers of observation over countless cycles, I am not ready to believe that he can tell what every single person is thinking at every moment. Hey, going by his own argumentation, synthetics cannot fully comprehend organics.

So yeah, everybody is happy in the synthesis ending because the writers assure us so and they are in control. Just not logical. In the end their consent is based on "It is so because we say so."

Edit: That's the point where you and some others in this thread disagree. You go by the words of the writers and their presentation. They comment on the disconnect between these words and how one would consider this outside of a story context.

Modifié par SDW, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Bill Casey]

-Draikin- wrote...

He said the geth rejected the Reaper's proposal to force their evolution and turn them into a Reaper, even when that was more or less their goal. He argued that the process of getting there is as important as the results. Unfortunately Bioware had the Geth do the exact opposite in ME3, but the point was still valid.

Shepard: How'd we get here? The Geth are better than this...

Legion: (Hangs head in shame) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

but the reapers are there in the slides

and surely being connected to reapers isn't something everyone would want, could also make indoctrination easier

We see them helping out in the initial part, and then they vanish from the rest of the slides. Who knows whether they stayed here or flew away after rebuilding, or decided to fight among each other. Thats what headcanons are for.

-Draikin- wrote...

Come to think of it, that last part is yet another horrifying thought. Whatever's left of those entire civilizations that were turned into goo isn't something I'd want to be "connected" with. Shepard's Paragon speech after destroying the Reaper on Rannoch actually states he/she wants those souls to rest in peace. That's also why I dislike Control.

My Shepard didn't say anything like that

Modifié par pirate1802, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[wizardryforever]

-Draikin- wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilzations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us"

Come to think of it, that last part is yet another horrifying thought. Whatever's left of those entire civilizations that were turned into goo isn't something I'd want to be "connected" with. Shepard's Paragon speech after destroying the Reaper on Rannoch actually states he/she wants those souls to rest in peace. That's also why I dislike Control.

wizardyforever wrote...
This doesn't jive with the popular "synthesis forces a change on the galaxy!" line of logic that is so prevalent.  It flat-out contradicts it, in fact.

Uhm, what? The only contradiction here is what the Catalyst says. Obviously Synthesis IS forced by its very definition. Just because the Catalyst says we're "ready" doesn't mean it's actually true. Legion argued against this kind of evolution in Mass Effect 2. He said the geth rejected the Reaper's proposal to force their evolution and turn them into a Reaper, even when that was more or less their goal. He argued that the process of getting there is as important as the results. Unfortunately Bioware had the Geth do the exact opposite in ME3, but the point was still valid. Mording also argued against a forced evolution like this, citing the uplifting of the Krogan as an example of what happens as a result. Yet all this suddenly doesn't matter in the end. And that's not even counting EDI's "I'm alive" speech, which again tramples on what we learn about EDI and Legion in ME2 and most of ME3. To me it's just another example of how utterly stupid the endings are.

The Catalyst is the only source of information on the Crucible's inner workings.  Thus we either trust what he says and use the Crucible, or we assume he's lying (for God knows what reason) and pick refuse.  Don't cherry pick what he may or may not be lying about, because honestly, the proof is nowhere to be found.  Ultimately the Crucible options being explained by the Catalyst and not someone we're more inclined to trust was a poor decision on Bioware's part.  So much of the dislike for the endings is based around the dislike of the Catalyst and the perception that the Catalyst is in control.  That's false, but it is understandable why people feel that way.  But regardless, the Catalyst is our only source of information about synthesis, so if we throw what he says out the window, then what are we left with?  Speculation and headcanon, and nothing else.  You see now why I think we should believe the Catalyst?

And about Mordin's uplifting dialogue, it doesn't apply because it affects everybody equally.  Nobody is being left out, and everyone's core is left the same.  The Krogan uplift was so disasterous because the Krogan were lifted with tech, but no one else was given a comparable rise in power.  That's the big difference.

EDI says "Only now do I feel alive" at the FOB, and "I am alive" in the epilogue.  The key difference is the words "feel" versus "am."  It's analogous to a blind person understanding the concept of color, then getting a miracle operation that gives them sight.  They realize that their previous understanding of color was hollow, a facsimile of the real thing.  I don't see EDI's lines as contradictory in that context.