266 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

BiO_MaN wrote...

If TIM was indoctrinated, why the hell did he revive Shepard and pit him against the collectors?

Because he wasn't indoctrinated when they wrote Mass Effect 2. But he was indoctrinated when they wrote the ending of Mass Effect 3.

[bboynexus]

The games do not exclude important details from the other mediums. They simply lack the insight those details provided.

Ignoring those points on the principle that the games should supersede everything else is erroneous.

[bboynexus]

Taleroth wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

If TIM was indoctrinated, why the hell did he revive Shepard and pit him against the collectors?

Because he wasn't indoctrinated when they wrote Mass Effect 2. But he was indoctrinated when they wrote the ending of Mass Effect 3.

Again, patently false.

[BiO]

starlitegirlx wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

If they were such amazingly important plot points, It should have been stated in the game. That is the difference between good writing and bad.

The games themselves should have all the information you need to understand it. If something important happened in one of the books that effects the main game, then I need to know what happened, why it happened, and what the consequences are of what happened.

If the audience is having to ask questions, you've failed as a writer. I'm sorry for how harsh that sounds but the point to being an author is to clearly convey messages and story and asking questions shows that they either didn't state something clearly or didn't state what they needed to in the first place.

Absolutely. You don't leave out stuff that comes from a video game and stick it into a book hoping to get more money out of your fans (diehards). I don't have time to waste on a comic that is supposedly integral to the story of my video game. Nor do I care to waste time or money or energy learning details that were added along the way (for MONEY to be made off me) yet not included in the game. If they wanted to do that, they could have done it and still added these details into the game (and not the codex or whatever because I'm playing a game, not reading it).

Major fail on the plot points that never made it to the game but were somehow important to it. What kind of brain damaged idiot does something like that to its audience? Honestly, it takes a moron of historic proportions to put something important to a video game trilogy in a comic or wherever but not in the game. The fact that is even an issue shows how screwed up BW/EA are. The fact that the OP defends it shows a massive lack of understanding in good storytelling. A good story contains all the elements needed within that story (in this case the trilogy and DLC does not count - sorry but it just doesn't because it's not the original story or original trilogy).

Fail on Bioware for that.

You would have noticed that the books and comics started appearing after ME1, at which point EA was setting up deadlines for Bioware. I would assume the reason for the books and comics having such debatable importance is because there was just no time, or way, to include them in the main games. I have said it before in this thread, I am not defending Bioware, and I am not against constructive criticism. My problem is how most of the complaining regarding the plot is because of unfamiliarity with ME lore.

[Sparse]

I have read the books (wasn't a fan to be honest) but I do tend to agree with the people saying that if it wasn't in the games then it shouldn't have been used in ME3.

Particularly given that EA were so insistent that ME3 had to be an entry-point to the series rather than just a culmination, it seem strange logic to say 'we don't want people to have had to play the games, but they are going to have to have read the books".
 

[bboynexus]

I don't think Bio_Man is defending the legitimacy of the books and comics in delivering material outside of the game that nonetheless influences the core narrative. He's arguing that it exists, that it is important, and that it should not be disregaded. Retribution, for examples, does quite a lot to elucidate Cerberus' role in Mass Effect 3, and that was written by Drew Karpyshyn himself.

[Xellith]

Moral of the story - if its a bioware game then make sure you "somehow" aquire the books/et

[Star fury]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Please, go read the additional ME content, like the books or the comics.

Yes, so go read book like this.

http://www.eurogamer...-deception-book

http://www.joystiq.c...s-effect-novel/

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

[BiO]

Sparse wrote...

I have read the books (wasn't a fan to be honest) but I do tend to agree with the people saying that if it wasn't in the games then it shouldn't have been used in ME3.

Particularly given that EA were so insistent that ME3 had to be an entry-point to the series rather than just a culmination, it seem strange logic to say 'we don't want people to have had to play the games, but they are going to have to have read the books".
 

I've been thinking about that, as well. On many occasions Shepard and co have been making statements that have obvious explanations, but instead Shepard acts like he doesn't know anything. A good written scene would have Shepard or an NPC explain these important factors to the player, so both those who've read the extended media, and those who have never even played ME2, have equal knowledge of the plot. This is mainly happening with Cerberus.

Perhaps in their attempt to stream-line the game for newer audiences, they stripped out some key scenes, in order to not confuse the new players with issues from 2 games ago. Also, remember that Bioware had to re-write the plot numerous times, after EA ordered them to cut Javik as a DLC, and after the script leaks.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

The truth is that this happens in a lot of movies too both The Matrix and The Transformers trilogies did this and so did the JJ Abrams Star Trek reboot, and so has the Star Wars and the Indiana Jones series they all used some sort of combo of comics, novels, video games, and anime shorts to fill in the blanks and to explain the backstory and to expand their respective universes. 

And Mass Effect is hardly the only video game series to use other media to fill in the blanks so has the makers of Dragon Age, Fable, Halo, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and The Elder Scrolls are just a few that have done the same the damn thing over the years.

  

[bboynexus]

I repeat; the books do NOT contain information that is necessary for story COMPREHENSION in Mass Effect 3. The books simply provide greater insight, a more thorough exploration of certain thematic ideas.

[Arisugawa]

If the primary medium is going to be the games themselves, any relevant information pertaining to the story must also be contained within that medium. This part is not up for discussion.

Now, expanded material can always be found in additional mediums: comics, novels, etc. But if you must ever venture beyond the primary medium for an explanation for something in the primary medium, the story has failed.

There are exceptions to this, mind you, namely when the primary medium in cancelled and it falls to secondary mediums to tell the remaining story or fill in the pieces the primary medium wasn't given time to. The easiest example to provide of that is Firefly.

But the Mass Effect series is not Firefly. It had the opportunity to tell the entirety of its primary narrative within its primary medium. If we're going to say that the novels and comics must be read to understand the primary narrative of the games, then the narrative of the games has failed.

A fan of the Star Wars films does not need to read the expanded universe novels to understand the events of the six films. Nor do they need to read the novelizations of the films for a better explanation of the events of the films. Additional material can be found in those books to be sure, but that material isn't vital to understanding the films.

A fan of Star Trek doesn't need to read the hundreds of volumes of fiction to understand  the narrative of any respective series. Again, additional information is found in those volumes, but its connection to the primary narrative is sporatic and may not always be considered canon.

If BioWare is suddenly expecting fans of the franchise to purchase all relevant secondary medium material to understand the storyline of the primary medium, then the primary medium's storyline has failed entirely. I understand the lure of creating what was once referred to as a multimedia franchise, but that places undo expectations on the audience and punishes those who are loyal to the primary meidum only.

For the record, I don't think BioWare did this.

I think everything you need to understand the narrative of three games is included within the three games. As a personal aside, I wish Kai Leng, a character who up until the third game was nothing more than a secondary medium exile, was not brought into the third game (perhaps to encourage us to buy the secondary medium material...). I don't think it is inecessary to venture into the secondary mediums to understand the games or the games' narrative.

As an audience, we may not like the answers that are found within the primary medium, and we might try to find alternate explanations or try to find connections to previously unconnected facets of the narrative. That doesn't meant the primary medium doesn't have the answers, or is missing vital pieces of the narrative that can only be understood by venturing elsewhere.

[iSousek]

BiO_MaN wrote...

iSousek wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

iSousek wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

thinking that TIM is indoctrinated, which is completely wrong

Catalyst outright tells you this in the ending so I think you might be mistaken here.

Evolution doesn't prove that TIM is NOT indoctrinated. If anything it hints the opposite.

The Veluvian priests are not a normal form of indoctrination. TIM was not fully transformed, which allowed him to retain his identity, but it also showed him what the Reapers planned. Everything TIM does after that is to thwart the Reapers, not their arrival, but their cycle of harvest. Which is why he never told Shepard about the Alpha Relay, but instead targeted him at the Collectors.

Yes, as I said, Evolution does not exclude the possibility of TIM being indoctrinated. He was in a presence of the reaper artifact, and even more than that.

If TIM was indoctrinated, why the hell did he revive Shepard and pit him against the collectors?

Indoctrination works in many different shapes and many different forms. We don't really know that much about indoctrination. But TIM being indoctrinated doesn't exclude him reviving Shepard. He was always doing what he tought was for the best. 

In my opinion TIM is a textbook example of a slow indoctrination. Much like Saren, he believes that his actions will result in "good" at the end of the day. And is willing to do anything for it. Often not seeing that he is playing into reapers trap.

[BiO]

iSousek wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

iSousek wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

iSousek wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

thinking that TIM is indoctrinated, which is completely wrong

Catalyst outright tells you this in the ending so I think you might be mistaken here.

Evolution doesn't prove that TIM is NOT indoctrinated. If anything it hints the opposite.

The Veluvian priests are not a normal form of indoctrination. TIM was not fully transformed, which allowed him to retain his identity, but it also showed him what the Reapers planned. Everything TIM does after that is to thwart the Reapers, not their arrival, but their cycle of harvest. Which is why he never told Shepard about the Alpha Relay, but instead targeted him at the Collectors.

Yes, as I said, Evolution does not exclude the possibility of TIM being indoctrinated. He was in a presence of the reaper artifact, and even more than that.

If TIM was indoctrinated, why the hell did he revive Shepard and pit him against the collectors?

Indoctrination works in many different shapes and many different forms. We don't really know that much about indoctrination. But TIM being indoctrinated doesn't exclude him reviving Shepard. He was always doing what he tought was for the best. 

In my opinion TIM is a textbook example of a slow indoctrination. Much like Saren, he believes that his actions will result in "good" at the end of the day. And is willing to do anything for it. Often not seeing that he is playing into reapers trap.

Everything TIM has done up to ME3's ending was to harm the Reapers in the long run. None of the indoctrinated characters in all games have ever done something that is against the Reaper's ultimate plans.

[bboynexus]

And yet he is in direct conflict with the Reapers right up until the Reapers attack the Cerberus-run Sanctuary facility, whose purpose directly subverts and threatens Reaper operations.

The Illusive Man was NOT indoctrinated prior to the moment he implanted himself with Reaper technology.

Modifié par bboynexus, 06 septembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[Kel Riever]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story.

Period.

[bboynexus]

starlitegirlx wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Okay, so it's bad writing. Are you going to try and understand it, or are you going to **** about it? Which is more productive to this board?

Defending them just makes you look like one of their pawns. Telling people to go read the stuff instead of be pissed is wholly out of line on your part. People are well within their rights to be outraged that important details were left out.

A self-defeating and entirely ignorant assertion.

[BiO]

starlitegirlx wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Okay, so it's bad writing. Are you going to try and understand it, or are you going to **** about it? Which is more productive to this board?

**** about it, thank you very much. I choose to be pissed at this kind of stuff. That's called being a wise consumer. I am not going to try to understand the inedptitude of a company that could not be bothered to add this info into the game under the presumption I would figure it out or be foolish enough to waste time and money on something that was meant as a game and should stand alone as a complete story.

Defending them just makes you look like one of their pawns. Telling people to go read the stuff instead of be pissed is wholly out of line on your part. People are well within their rights to be outraged that important details were left out.

Again, I am not telling you to NOT complain about it. I am telling you to go read up on the wikia, so that you can hopefully get a better outlook on ME3, and try to understand it's plot with this newfound information. I am not telling you Bioware is right and that you are wrong to complain about it, but complaining about lore inconsistency is different to complaining about bad decision making on Bioware's part. I am against the former, not the latter, when I said "**** about it".

You're free to complain about Bioware's bad writing, and I am not stopping you.

[bboynexus]

"but complaining about lore inconsistency is different to complaining about bad decision making on Bioware's part."

Precisely!

[Coreniro]

I read a lot of comments whining about the crime that bioware writers committed by writing books and comics, stuff that, as we all know, is mainly published to earn trillions of dollars. Are you serious? There are easier,cheaper and more succesfull ways to take money from your pockets. 

I like this new rule, made by Mr Godknows, that only the game must have key plot points. Otherwise, bioware writers are bad writers. Sure, you're absolutely right.
Almost everything shown in comics or written in the books becomes the game's background. That's it. Books and comics expand secondary characters stories. Mass Effect is about Shepard and the present.
Op, you don't need to read anything to understand the games. 

[BiO]

Coreniro wrote...

I read a lot of comments whining about the crime that bioware writers committed by writing books and comics, stuff that, as we all know, is mainly published to earn trillions of dollars. Are you serious? There are easier,cheaper and more succesfull ways to take money from your pockets. 

I like this new rule, made by Mr Godknows, that only the game must have key plot points. Otherwise, bioware writers are bad writers. Sure, you're absolutely right.
Almost everything shown in comics or written in the books becomes the game's background. That's it. Books and comics expand secondary characters stories. Mass Effect is about Shepard and the present.
Op, you don't need to read anything to understand the games. 

I didn't say what Bioware did is right.

"Op, you don't need to read anything to understand the games."

In ME3's case, obviously, you do.

[Someone With Mass]

The problem is that most of those comics and books are unbelievably bad in terms of quality and writing, so I can see why people wouldn't want anything to do with them.