266 réponses à ce sujet

[Coreniro]

[quote]starlitegirlx wrote...



[/quote]

Well, I'm pissed because I only got into the game in May. Never played it before. Never heard of it before. Got xbox in 2010 but was unable to get into it due to real life taking precidence and the one game I had that came with it was final fantasy 13 which didn't hold my attention. I only discovered mass effect in May due to serious illness. I played one and loved it. Played it again and again. Discovered there was a second and played it again and again then went to three and was like WTH?!?!

So from May till now, and given the fact that I was only interested in playing the games because I enjoyed them but not getting involved in every other mass effect piece of work out there can you please see then how bioware failed. Also, if they didn't think of it until after, then they could have somehow incorporated it into the next one. Yes, it would take time and rethinking, but that's why they make millions, probably billions, of dollars.

I'm sorry if I came off as attacking you. It's just disturbing how the whole thing played out. And I only got into it starting in May. I can only imagine how fans who waited over the years for each release felt.

Also, if it needs to be expanded upon then that also counts as a fail. It should be understood barring some sort of plot twist that is meant to make you think.

[/quote]

if you don't like it, if you feel like bioware tricked you, you have the right to ask for a refund. 
if you don't have time or money, or you don't like reading, there are a lot of short movies. 15 minutes and you're done. But again, you don't need any of the books, or the comics, to fully understand the Mass Effect trilogy. Everything you need to know is in the games.
Then, if you managed to understand everything, but you still don't like it, tell me why this should be someone's fault. You paid as much as those who bought the game paid, so you're not special. giving money to someone doesn't make you special. And this consumer facade is just stupid. I'm a consumer, sellers owe me everything. Yeah, sure. Where the **** do you live, in Iceland?

[BiO]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The problem is that most of those comics and books are unbelievably bad in terms of quality and writing, so I can see why people wouldn't want anything to do with them.

The only one which is unbelievably bad is Deception, which brings nothing new to the table.

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Coreniro]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Coreniro wrote...

I read a lot of comments whining about the crime that bioware writers committed by writing books and comics, stuff that, as we all know, is mainly published to earn trillions of dollars. Are you serious? There are easier,cheaper and more succesfull ways to take money from your pockets. 

I like this new rule, made by Mr Godknows, that only the game must have key plot points. Otherwise, bioware writers are bad writers. Sure, you're absolutely right.
Almost everything shown in comics or written in the books becomes the game's background. That's it. Books and comics expand secondary characters stories. Mass Effect is about Shepard and the present.
Op, you don't need to read anything to understand the games. 

I didn't say what Bioware did is right.

"Op, you don't need to read anything to understand the games."

In ME3's case, obviously, you do.

No, you don't.
Redemption is fully explained between ME2 and ME3.

Incursion and Inquisition are free to read. the first is mentioned in ME2, the second in ME3.

You don't need to read Evolution to understand that Saren and TIM lost their minds. But you can read it if you want to know why the robot in mars is called Eva Corè

conviction is free, and is completely irrelevant

Invasion set the background for a future dlc. Nothing more than that.

Homeworlds are 2ndary characters backstories, nothing important to know.

the books (except the first one, which is about Saren and Andersons backgrounds) keep on going around the same topics, they're parallel, but they never get inside Shepard's story.

Basic points are fully explained in the main games. Books and comics expand some of the secondary elements.

[BiO]

^^ TIM didn't lose his mind. If not for Shepard's intervention on the Mars Archives, TIM would have already been controlling the Reapers by the time they reach Thessia.

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Tipsyfresh]

bboynexus wrote...

The games do not exclude important details from the other mediums. They simply lack the insight those details provided.

Ignoring those points on the principle that the games should supersede everything else is erroneous.

I don't disagree with the "insight" other mediums provide. But if ME started as a video game then that's where the important or main stuff should be, insight and answers included.

I Don't Know If ME started as a Comic but if it did then we can't really complain about bioware using other mediums.

And using new and alternative ways to tell a story is great, IF you have a story to tell AND the method benefits the audience's  experience.  As for the other mediums bioware uses, great theyre a way to expand lore and backstory. But to use it as a crutch rather than an extension to the main game...fail(and I think they crutches it). Also if you don't know how your story ends but you've already dove into multi-media storytelling...get your priorities right. 

I had begun to believe bioware could tell an engaging epic story but ME3 showed that they just make video games...leave the books behind.

[Tipsyfresh]

Also to those saying that you need the other mediums to understand the game:

That might be because other fans establish those connections(sometimes correctly) and they can do it in such magnificent ways (charts and walls of text) that it's as if the writers told you themselves. All the while in actuality there isn't much of a need to look at the other mediums beside random tidbits ie reapers built Omega or some ish...

Who cares its not like you be able to see the repercussions of that.

[Coreniro]

BiO_MaN wrote...

^^ TIM didn't lose his mind. If not for Shepard's intervention on the Mars Archives, TIM would have already been controlling the Reapers by the time they reach Thessia.

Catalyst said that TIM wasn't able to control the reapers, and the fact that he went over his thin morale by abducting everyone. Are you sure he didn't lose his mind? 
By the way, all he could find on mars was the crucible scheme. How could he build it without the help of the galaxy? And why am I asking this kind of stupid questions. It's a ****ing story!

[I am disappoint]

BiO_MaN wrote...

^^ TIM didn't lose his mind. If not for Shepard's intervention on the Mars Archives, TIM would have already been controlling the Reapers by the time they reach Thessia.

How exactly would TIM be controlling the Reapers by Thessia?

[BiO]

I am disappoint wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

^^ TIM didn't lose his mind. If not for Shepard's intervention on the Mars Archives, TIM would have already been controlling the Reapers by the time they reach Thessia.

How exactly would TIM be controlling the Reapers by Thessia?

He would have constructed the Crucible in secret without anyone's knowledge. Then he would have exploited Udina's conscious regarding Earth, taken control of the Citadel, use the Crucible to control the Reapers.

Coreniro wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

^^ TIM didn't lose his mind. If not for Shepard's intervention on the Mars Archives, TIM would have already been controlling the Reapers by the time they reach Thessia.

Catalyst said that TIM wasn't able to control the reapers, and the fact that he went over his thin morale by abducting everyone. Are you sure he didn't lose his mind?
By the way, all he could find on mars was the crucible scheme. How could he build it without the help of the galaxy? And why am I asking this kind of stupid questions. It's a ****ing story!

The reason the Catalyst states it is because TIM implanted himself with Reaper nanites, which allowed them take control. Same to what happened with Paul Grayson. Only that TIM, with the knowledge from Sanctuary and Retribution, thought he would be able to keep the Reapers at bay, and even trick them.

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[eddieoctane]

What I'm getting from the OP is that I'm a bad fan for not shelling out another $100+ for all of the novels, comics, cell-phone games, and a preorder of Paragon Lost.

I'm pretty sure this actually means EA is a bad company, making BioWare scatter essential plot details across several different media just to force people to buy them as a means of further increasing profit.

[Coreniro]

So, what do you need to read Retribution for? to understand the ways of TIM? 2nd game is all about TIM methods. 3rd is about him going too far. Isn't it enough? You don't need to read Retribution to understand that TIM is controled by reapers. You just need to play the Cronos mission to get the prooves. (grayson's fate is a proof of the same kind).
I'm not saying you shouldn't buy any of the comics or books. Buy and read'em, you're gonna enjoy them. But they're not necessary to understand everything.

[BiO]

Coreniro, you're completely missing the point I'm trying to put across. TIM is not indoctrinated, nor is he under Reaper control.

[Coreniro]

the point of this post is that you need to read novels and comics to understand the game. You don't need them.
But, if TIM is not under reapers' control, nor is he indoctrinated (aren't these two things the same?), what the hell is he?
And you stated in a previous comments that TIM wasn't strong enough to control the reapers, so they controlled him. You're contradicting yourself just to tell me I'm wrong?

[BiO]

TIM got indoctrinated after Cronos. I never said otherwise.

My original point saying that you need to read the books to understand Cerberus' agenda has not been disproven. You just refuse to look at the facts.

Let me ask you this - if TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? Why did he steal Shepard's corpse from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the Collectors?

[SubAstris]

No one playing a game such as Mass Effect should be expected to refer to outside media; plot points brought up in the game should be resolved in the game

[Coreniro]

Ok, it was just a misunderstanding.
I never said that he was indoctrinated since day first. I said that he lost his mind, and went too far to stop the reapers (see the abductions and the Sanctuary experiments).
It's true, Cerberus agenda has not been disproven, they just speeded up their methods to reach their goal (the human dominance) because of the invasion.
but, again, I didn't need to read it from the book. To me, the game completely delivered this point.

[JaceBelerin]

BiO_MaN wrote...

TIM got indoctrinated after Cronos. I never said otherwise.

My original point saying that you need to read the books to understand Cerberus' agenda has not been disproven. You just refuse to look at the facts.

Let me ask you this - if TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? Why did he steal Shepard's corpse from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the Collectors?

Cerberus agenda was explained in ME2.

Liara and Feron stole Shepards corpse and gave it to TIM.

Shepard destroyed the collectors, not TIM.

As for Sanctuary, he was free from complete control, but was still being influenced.

[Coreniro]

JaceBelerin wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

TIM got indoctrinated after Cronos. I never said otherwise.

My original point saying that you need to read the books to understand Cerberus' agenda has not been disproven. You just refuse to look at the facts.

Let me ask you this - if TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? Why did he steal Shepard's corpse from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the Collectors?

Cerberus agenda was explained in ME2.

Liara and Feron stole Shepards corpse and gave it to TIM.

Shepard destroyed the collectors, not TIM.

As for Sanctuary, he was free from complete control, but was still being influenced.

he meant that TIM was behind Shepard and Liara.

[BiO]

JaceBelerin wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

TIM got indoctrinated after Cronos. I never said otherwise.

My original point saying that you need to read the books to understand Cerberus' agenda has not been disproven. You just refuse to look at the facts.

Let me ask you this - if TIM was indoctrinated, why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? Why did he steal Shepard's corpse from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the Collectors?

Cerberus agenda was explained in ME2.

Liara and Feron stole Shepards corpse and gave it to TIM.

Shepard destroyed the collectors, not TIM.

As for Sanctuary, he was free from complete control, but was still being influenced.

Cerberus agenda was explained in ME2.

No, it really was not. Illusive Man himself said to not presume that we know his intentions.

Shepard destroyed the collectors, not TIM.

I'm not even going to bother replying to that one.

Liara and Feron stole Shepards corpse and gave it to TIM.

It was TIM who directed them to.

As for Sanctuary, he was free from complete control, but was still being influenced.

That makes no sense.

[IllusiveManJr]

I went and read Mass Effect: Deception, does that count?

[clarkusdarkus]

But why? i never took notice of comics, twitter deaths, apps books etc before ME3 so why should i after it? for a part time story in game they should sell the game for less then if its not complete and we have to check elsewhere. Ridiculous logic to blame fans for not going outside of a game to see whats up. Plot points belong in game and always will.

[Rudy Lis]

Since I’m not artist and have no integrity, I think that putting plot-critical and plot-important things to different media, which is not part of core media is bad idea. Expanding universe, like describing asari tribal culture or stone tables with recordings of “old ways of krogans” are fine – that’s why they called “expansion”.
Also, my lack of artistic integrity practically burst out of laughing: in ME2 you could buy Drew Karpyshin’s “books”. Yeah, you right – why not sell existing books in game itself? It’s just fcuking text! How big are they, 200 kb? 300 kb? Apparently very hard to save memory and implement such “patching” in console systems… For anything that still holy – I read tons of texts on daily basis off computer screen because it’s part of my job (plus sites and forums, like this one). So I see no difference in launching game, getting up to Shepard’s cabin, choose datapad with required book and read it there, with occasional animations of Shepard scratching his balls, sipping some water from glass, or rubbing his eyes if you read long enough (as a message “go take a rest, mate”). Come on, bioware, you nicked a lot of things from Deus Ex: Human Revolution, couldn’t do that with books? Okay, look into your own past. Right, old pepperboxes remember: Baldur’s gate. Yeah, there were books. Even Bethesda, former leader of my schitlist, continues to add books inside their games, Skyrim included. And I read them. And it is fun. Well, not all of them, but some of them – like IRL. But they are there. What’s the problem, digital book is easier (not to mention – much faster) to purchase for us, those who live outside of North America and still wants to read original texts, in case you sold rights to some local publishers. My English may hurt eyes (and feelings) of those to whom English is mother’s tongue (my sincerest apologies, don't shoot piano player, he's doing best he can), but I prefer to be a sole responsible for translation, especially when hefty sum is involved - I read enough bad translations, so I won't take it till it's totally free (and since it's not...).
And final, to topic starter. I respect you approach (really), but since you, apparently, read those books, can you tell me, is that writing as schitty as it is in games, especially ME3 (Dietz excluded, just for “clarity of poll”)? I mean plot holes, logic holes, inconsistencies, discrepancies, conflicting to itself and basic logic? Like:
- Ashley’s jump from Operations chief to LtCdr in 6 months, or Kaidan’s jump from StLt to StCdr in 2 years and then, after about 6 months to Major (how other officers look in comparison – Anderson, Hackett, Shepard’s mom; they either slowpokes or spent a lot of time in their highest actual ranks).
- Anderson’s being graduated as 2nd Lt and full-fledged member of N7 program at age 20. HTF is that possible, by description such program a) accept only officers and since it’s not “home” program, it should be quite long, 21-28 months total for 7 grades – where the hell he got time to study at Academy? Oh, he was “gifted”. Gifted by two by four?
Elysium defense, relatively nonsensical, but how about centuries old rule about attacker outnumbering defender 3-5 to 1? So, if we trust Joker, that means Elysium garrison had 2-3 thousands of troops? Otherwise attacking it sounds a way too gambling. Isn’t that garrison a little bit too little for “symbol of human colonization” or whatever nonsensical name it was awarded? By evaluating numbers of population on Elysium (since no hard numbers were given), it is possible to come to number of approximately 5 millions (to the time of attack). This number suggest that by minimal standards, number of Law Enforcement officers per such population should be at least 5000. And this is in case where one LEO “covers” thousand people. If we choose, say, US numbers, that’s three times more. 15K LEOs. If we choose Russia’s numbers – that’s 10 times more, 50K LEOs. Yes, I know LE agencies roster, ToE and MO are differs from those of military. So if Elysium during attack was more or less rural, thus spread, thus having relatively large perimeter, that would require, say, 2 regiments to defend it. So about 4000 men. 9000 vs 10000 – that’s barely an advantage for attack, even surprise, even with long term agents and saboteurs: where Counterintelligence and Internal Security looked? New issue of “Miranda’s youth”?
Moreover, singlehandedly one vs 10000. Imagine density of fire, even within slowest ME2 projectiles velocities. Shepard definitely did that on Casual and spammed “Immunity”.
- Or, my favorite – Cerberus’ attack on Citadel. 300K C-Sec officers according to Pallin. Even with reduced numbers, say 200K (that, actually, huge cut). So, even if any Cerberus trooper was better than anyone (minus Shepard) in Galaxy, so they shouldn’t needed 3/5-to-1 ratio, how the hell you suppose to ferry that amount of soldiers, plus atlases and gunships? Cerberus troopers are humans, you can’t fold them down and mothball in cargo bay until needed. Not to mention food and water they needed.
- Or Mars: loyal to death Cerberus’ troops manage to disobey order and not just sent tram, they sent two! Not to mention such minor issues with turret that couldn’t pierce thin walls in her one and only avenue of approach or has limited turn angle (and, probably, elevation as well).
- And such minor general things like ship building rate, travel rate, guardian’s shield with open slot (hello, same polycrystalline used for Atlas “windshield” and it is fully transparent), SR1 fuselage width from the outside is 8 metres tops, while from inside is 26 at least, economy system – Shepard’s resurrection: 2 millions credits, Kodiak Shuttle – 3 millions, SR1 drive core – 120 billions, Trident drive core – 10 millions, if Adams’ words are correct, SR2 drive core is three times bigger than SR1, so, does it mean that it is 3 times more expensive? If yes, than that is 360 billion. So, comparing Shepard’s revival price, Cerberus could just blow it all on hats.

Well, obviously I can go on and on, but that's just from top of my head. Simply put, moving away personal affection toward franchise (totally), and distancing yourself from your sympathy and antipathy, will those book be worth of money in first place? Judge them not as fan, but as person who will pay his hard-earned cash for them.

Of course, I'm mere human, no artist, have no integrity, don't hide behind art and may be wrong, so feel free to correct me, if you want. Unless you just don't like me for personal reasons (like you feel I've offended your favorite characters, studio or series, or just because potato (come one, we're all adults here)), that's opened for critique as well, but, I'm afraid, I won't be able to provide any positive changes. So my apologies for that.

P.S. If you be so kind, please, avoid "nitpicking" and "it's just game" comments on my comments. Let's say it's a way too much flaws and not enough interesting content for me to ignore flaws anymore. What's the saying, "let's agree to disagree"? Well, let's.

[BiO]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

But why? i never took notice of comics, twitter deaths, apps books etc before ME3 so why should i after it? for a part time story in game they should sell the game for less then if its not complete and we have to check elsewhere. Ridiculous logic to blame fans for not going outside of a game to see whats up. Plot points belong in game and always will.

I'm not blaming fans. All I'm saying is go check up on the wikia for the additional facts, if you're confused about a certain plot point, instead of screaming "plot holes" or "artistic integrity", because quite frankly, it's really frustrating to see people complain about something that is easily explainable with additional context.

Seriously, how many times is TIM being indoctrinated going to pop-up on these forums? It's like you guys have never played a previous ME game.

[Raizo]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

If they were such amazingly important plot points, It should have been stated in the game. That is the difference between good writing and bad.

The games themselves should have all the information you need to understand it. If something important happened in one of the books that effects the main game, then I need to know what happened, why it happened, and what the consequences are of what happened.

If the audience is having to ask questions, you've failed as a writer. I'm sorry for how harsh that sounds but the point to being an author is to clearly convey messages and story and asking questions shows that they either didn't state something clearly or didn't state what they needed to in the first place.

Having read the first 3 books I never really had a problem with ceratin events taking place in these books and not in the games themselves but now that I have played ME3 I do agree that the writers of ME3 should have made more of an effort to explain certain things better.

The Human counsellor decision in ME3 should not have happened the way it did period but if it had to end up with Udina on the council anyway then ME3 at the least should have explained that Anderson was the cousellor for a while, that he resigned, why he resigned and how the other counsellors and Shepard felt about that decision.

I know I getting slightly off topic but twitter events such as Emily Wong and Kal Reegar should not have happened either. I don't even think Emily Wong's fate is even mentioned anywhere in ME3, I certainly did not know about it until read about it on these forums.

[Snoopy1955]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Please, go read the additional ME content, like the books or the comics. If you don't have access to those, don't want to waste money on something you may not like, at least go read their plot on the wikias. Quite frankly, most of the ****ing on this forum is because some key points were made in the books and comics, and most players aren't aware of them. The most popular one, thinking that TIM is indoctrinated, which is completely wrong, is expanded on Evolution. Or that Omega is built by the Reapers in Retribution.

I read Evolution, and I'm not convinced that TIM isn't indoctrinated. He was obviously physically and psychologically changed by the Reaper artifact that he came into indirect contact with. While it may not be what we would typically call indoctrination, assuming that the Reapers have been able to exert some level of control over him since he came into contact with the artifact isn't actually that unrealistic.