266 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story.

Period.

[Snoopy1955]

Also, it is hard not to see the truth in a lot of what is being said here. Why do I need to read a book for a game that I've been playing for up to three parts? If there are plot holes in the game large enough that they need whole books, comics, and other media to fill them, should they...you know...not need books and other media in order to fill them?

[Eterna]

Ozida wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Ozida wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
If they were such amazingly important plot points, It should have been stated in the game. That is the difference between good writing and bad.

^ This. I wasn't even aware of books before finishing ME3 and tried paying attention to what was happening within the game I was playing.

So instead of reading up on the wikia about what else there could be to help you understand the plot, you instead decide to go to BSN and complain about how ****ty everything was.

First of all, please watch yout tone. I have as much rights to come here and express my opinion regarding the game as everyone else. 

I wish that you and a lot of annoying people didn't. 

[AresKeith]

Eterna5 wrote...

Ozida wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Ozida wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
If they were such amazingly important plot points, It should have been stated in the game. That is the difference between good writing and bad.

^ This. I wasn't even aware of books before finishing ME3 and tried paying attention to what was happening within the game I was playing.

So instead of reading up on the wikia about what else there could be to help you understand the plot, you instead decide to go to BSN and complain about how ****ty everything was.

First of all, please watch yout tone. I have as much rights to come here and express my opinion regarding the game as everyone else. 

I wish that you and a lot of annoying people didn't. 

oh well, sue us and deal with it

[Eterna]

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Ozida wrote...

BiO_MaN wrote...

Ozida wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
If they were such amazingly important plot points, It should have been stated in the game. That is the difference between good writing and bad.

^ This. I wasn't even aware of books before finishing ME3 and tried paying attention to what was happening within the game I was playing.

So instead of reading up on the wikia about what else there could be to help you understand the plot, you instead decide to go to BSN and complain about how ****ty everything was.

First of all, please watch yout tone. I have as much rights to come here and express my opinion regarding the game as everyone else. 

I wish that you and a lot of annoying people didn't. 

oh well, sue us and deal with it

Why would I sue you? What a stupid thing to say. 

[blueumi]

sorry no the game should make sense in itself i have no interest in giving bioware any more money for mass effect books and stuff

i am no longer as big of a fan of this as i once was sorry but i really hate the way this game went down at the end

[Han Shot First]

bboynexus wrote...

Bio_Man, my old friend, I agree with you on most counts.

It is, indeed, a common misconception that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated throughout Mass Effect 3. That assumption is patently false. He only falls under Reaper influence after he implants himself towards the end, as you say yourself.

It is very important, first of all, people recognize that there are two distinct forms of Indoctrination going on throughout ME3; Reaper Indoctrination and Cerberus Indoctrination.

I disagree with this.

Vendetta talks about how the Reaper cycles always fit the same pattern, and how they always conquer the galaxy by setting up a faction of dissdents just like Cerberus in a divide and conquer strategy. Javik notes that they also did it in his cycle, but that it was discovered too late. Cerberus in ME3 fits that bill perfectly.

As such it is clear that TIM is under the Reapers' thumb from the start of ME3, where he has his troops attacking the Alliance rather than the Reapers.

My take is that TIM became indoctrinated by salvaged tech (including piece of an actual Reaper) from the Collector Base, that was incorporated into his own base. The Reaper nanites later only hastened his descent and placed him more firmly under Reaper control, much like Sarens upgrades in ME1. Saren was indoctrinated prior to those 'upgrades,' the upgrades just placed him more firmly under Reaper Control.

[BiO]

Han Shot First wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Bio_Man, my old friend, I agree with you on most counts.

It is, indeed, a common misconception that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated throughout Mass Effect 3. That assumption is patently false. He only falls under Reaper influence after he implants himself towards the end, as you say yourself.

It is very important, first of all, people recognize that there are two distinct forms of Indoctrination going on throughout ME3; Reaper Indoctrination and Cerberus Indoctrination.

I disagree with this.

Vendetta talks about how the Reaper cycles always fit the same pattern, and how they always conquer the galaxy by setting up a faction of dissdents just like Cerberus in a divide and conquer strategy. Javik notes that they also did it in his cycle, but that it was discovered too late. Cerberus in ME3 fits that bill perfectly.

As such it is clear that TIM is under the Reapers' thumb from the start of ME3, where he has his troops attacking the Alliance rather than the Reapers.

My take is that TIM became indoctrinated by salvaged tech (including piece of an actual Reaper) from the Collector Base, that was incorporated into his own base. The Reaper nanites later only hastened his descent and placed him more firmly under Reaper control, much like Sarens upgrades in ME1. Saren was indoctrinated prior to those 'upgrades,' the upgrades just placed him more firmly under Reaper Control.

Go back to Evolution. TIM was never fully transformed, which is the reason why he is an anomaly in this cycle.

And again, I am going to backtrack, stating facts - why did he steal Shepard from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the collectors? Why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? 

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Blueprotoss]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Please, go read the additional ME content, like the books or the comics. If you don't have access to those, don't want to waste money on something you may not like, at least go read their plot on the wikias. Quite frankly, most of the ****ing on this forum is because some key points were made in the books and comics, and most players aren't aware of them. The most popular one, thinking that TIM is indoctrinated, which is completely wrong, is expanded on Evolution. Or that Omega is built by the Reapers in Retribution.

This is very true and this is normally the dead horse that gets beaten when video games get expanded universes.

[BiO]

The negativity on this board is truly astonishing.

[Snoopy1955]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Bio_Man, my old friend, I agree with you on most counts.

It is, indeed, a common misconception that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated throughout Mass Effect 3. That assumption is patently false. He only falls under Reaper influence after he implants himself towards the end, as you say yourself.

It is very important, first of all, people recognize that there are two distinct forms of Indoctrination going on throughout ME3; Reaper Indoctrination and Cerberus Indoctrination.

I disagree with this.

Vendetta talks about how the Reaper cycles always fit the same pattern, and how they always conquer the galaxy by setting up a faction of dissdents just like Cerberus in a divide and conquer strategy. Javik notes that they also did it in his cycle, but that it was discovered too late. Cerberus in ME3 fits that bill perfectly.

As such it is clear that TIM is under the Reapers' thumb from the start of ME3, where he has his troops attacking the Alliance rather than the Reapers.

My take is that TIM became indoctrinated by salvaged tech (including piece of an actual Reaper) from the Collector Base, that was incorporated into his own base. The Reaper nanites later only hastened his descent and placed him more firmly under Reaper control, much like Sarens upgrades in ME1. Saren was indoctrinated prior to those 'upgrades,' the upgrades just placed him more firmly under Reaper Control.

Go back to Evolution. TIM was never fully transformed, which is the reason why he is an anomaly in this cycle.

The fact of the matter stands that TIM was in fact transformed. A new language became available in his head, his body was physically different, he was connected to by some psychic source that drew him to Illium, and at several points after his transformation he can "feel" the other unfortunates who were transformed by the artifact.

He may not be "indoctrinated" but there is little doubt that the Reapers are able to exert some form of pressure on him that could in fact manipulate his actions.

Regardless of whether or not this is your dictionary definition of indoctrination is irrelivant.

[Baa Baa]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story.

Period.

[BiO]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

The fact of the matter stands that TIM was in fact transformed. A new language became available in his head, his body was physically different, he was connected to by some psychic source that drew him to Illium, and at several points after his transformation he can "feel" the other unfortunates who were transformed by the artifact.

He may not be "indoctrinated" but there is little doubt that the Reapers are able to exert some form of pressure on him that could in fact manipulate his actions.

Regardless of whether or not this is your dictionary definition of indoctrination is irrelivant.

On the contrary, it is very important. An indoctrinated TIM would be working for the Reapers. This TIM is transformed, yes, but everything he's done over the course of the franchise, prior to Cronos, has been against the Reapers's plans.

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Peranor]

DJRackham wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story.

Period.

QFT!

I should not have to refer to sources outside the game for relevant in game information.

[BiO]

Given the excessive QFT of "If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story." leads me to believe most of you don't even care about the story in the first place.

[Peranor]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Given the excessive QFT of "If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story." leads me to believe most of you don't even care about the story in the first place.

Personally I was refering more to the "I should not have to refer to sources outside the game for relevant in game information." quote.

Bioware failed to convey vital story information inside the game. Thats either lazy, stupid or both.

I'm perfectly fine with them releasing books and such. But that should be isolated stories. And any tie-ins with the story taking place in the games shuold be trivial at most.

Shepards story started on a game and any information relevant to the plot should have been conveyed on that medium during the three games.

I realize that they just want to sqeueeze a few more dollars out of the story and that is why they did this. But that doesn't mean I like it.

[BiO]

anorling wrote...

I'm perfectly fine with them releasing books and such. But that should be isolated stories. And any tie-ins with the story taking place in the games shuold be trivial at most.

Shepards story started on a game and any information relevant to the plot should have been conveyed on that medium during the three games.

I realize that they just want to sqeueeze a few more dollars out of the story and that is why they did this. But that doesn't mean I like it.

I agree, but my main point here was to read up on the wikia, at least, regarding a certain plot point, instead of disregarding it as a plot hole, or as a dropped story element.

What I don't agree with you, however, is your assumption that they're doing it to squeeze more money. More like not having enough dev time to fleshen out their ideas, because of ridiculous project time given from EA, taking into account the scale of the game.

[Snoopy1955]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

The fact of the matter stands that TIM was in fact transformed. A new language became available in his head, his body was physically different, he was connected to by some psychic source that drew him to Illium, and at several points after his transformation he can "feel" the other unfortunates who were transformed by the artifact.

He may not be "indoctrinated" but there is little doubt that the Reapers are able to exert some form of pressure on him that could in fact manipulate his actions.

Regardless of whether or not this is your dictionary definition of indoctrination is irrelivant.

On the contrary, it is very important. An indoctrinated TIM would be working for the Reapers. This TIM is transformed, yes, but everything he's done over the course of the franchise, prior to Cronos, has been against the Reapers's plans.

Or has it?

Harbinger was very interested in Sheppard's body for all of ME2. Maybe he was interested in it before ME2, and blowing up the Normandy was a bit of an oopsie on his part. Suddenly Harbinger is left in a scramble to make Sheppard exactly the way he is, after all, even the Catalyst states that there is something special and the Reapers don't know what it is, that allows him to activate the Crucible. To rebuild him, Harbinger gives TIM a gentle nudge to get the ball rolling.

Why go after the Collectors and Collector base then?

Well, Harbinger would need to test his newly built Sheppard to make sure that it was still working the way that the old one was. That means that Shep needs something to go out and fight, and Harbinger would prefer he could directly monitor these tests. He thinks about it for a couple of minutes and then says to himself, "Wait...I think I have a couple of those Prothean husk things that I use to make shady deals with pirates and criminals kicking around. Hey TIM. Send Shep on a quest to kill those guys. I'll bodyjack them, make sure that you rebuilt him the right way."

Now TIM, whether he is being puppeted directly, or indirectly, sees this as a good idea, because if he is being directly controlled at this point, the tests are important. If he is being controlled indirectly, then murdering Collector's appeals to him.

The main point of the argument is that the Reapers are a galactic super-intelligence that have plans that even the race that created them don't seem to understand. They also have a bad track record for rebuilding dead people and not turning them into zombie slaves who charge mindlessly into battle and don't appear to be capable of independant thought or action, so maybe rebuilding Shep exactly like he was just wasn't something that the Reapers could do (and if they could, it wasn't like the rest of the galaxy would let him pretend that he hadn't been rebuilt by the reapers).

[bboynexus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The problem is that most of those comics and books are unbelievably bad in terms of quality and writing, so I can see why people wouldn't want anything to do with them.

There isn't really anything wrong with the first three novels, particularly Retribution.

[Cobretti ftw]

Bioware employee detected

[Han Shot First]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Bio_Man, my old friend, I agree with you on most counts.

It is, indeed, a common misconception that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated throughout Mass Effect 3. That assumption is patently false. He only falls under Reaper influence after he implants himself towards the end, as you say yourself.

It is very important, first of all, people recognize that there are two distinct forms of Indoctrination going on throughout ME3; Reaper Indoctrination and Cerberus Indoctrination.

I disagree with this.

Vendetta talks about how the Reaper cycles always fit the same pattern, and how they always conquer the galaxy by setting up a faction of dissdents just like Cerberus in a divide and conquer strategy. Javik notes that they also did it in his cycle, but that it was discovered too late. Cerberus in ME3 fits that bill perfectly.

As such it is clear that TIM is under the Reapers' thumb from the start of ME3, where he has his troops attacking the Alliance rather than the Reapers.

My take is that TIM became indoctrinated by salvaged tech (including piece of an actual Reaper) from the Collector Base, that was incorporated into his own base. The Reaper nanites later only hastened his descent and placed him more firmly under Reaper control, much like Sarens upgrades in ME1. Saren was indoctrinated prior to those 'upgrades,' the upgrades just placed him more firmly under Reaper Control.

Go back to Evolution. TIM was never fully transformed, which is the reason why he is an anomaly in this cycle.

And again, I am going to backtrack, stating facts - why did he steal Shepard from Harbinger's hands? Why did he destroy the collectors? Why did the Reapers percieve him as a threat on Sanctuary? 

Evolution is set prior to the events of Mass Effect 1 during the First Contact War.

I think TIM's indoctrination largely occurs between ME2 and ME3, when he's playing around with tech salvaged from the Collector Base.

But either way, whether he's fully indoctrinated during Evolution or after when he salvages tech from the Collector Base, he's certainly indoctrinated at the start of Mass Effect 3.

[EnvyTB075]

BiO_MaN wrote...

Given the excessive QFT of "If a games story needs other media to fill in the vast majority of the blanks, its a bad story." leads me to believe most of you don't even care about the story in the first place.

Or maybe its a bad idea to leave out key plot points in the main Mass Effect media which started everything in the first place, y'know, the games? If extra media is required, not bonus, content then you're simply doing it wrong and shows an incredible amount of laziness in the storytelling because you're relying on someone else to fill in the gaps you simply can't be bothered filling.

And whether you like it or not, many people seem to agree.

[The Spamming Troll]

i didnt buy the game to read the book.

[Rudy Lis]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i didnt buy the game to read the book.

Well, if it's a good book, it's worth reading, problem is, topic-starter does not explain his isolated stance toward books quality (not that he has any obligations to do so) and most, if not all "franchise-based" books I've read were mediocre, with few shining moments on occasion.
I did some quick yahooing, it seems that books sold at price range 8-12 USD for paperback and more for other forms of edition. So if their quality (franchise isolated) is good, that's Ok price. If they as crappy as ME3 writing, well, no, thanks, I'll find better use for my money - new X-com is upcoming, for example.

[JPN17]

Rudy Lis wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i didnt buy the game to read the book.

Well, if it's a good book, it's worth reading, problem is, topic-starter does not explain his isolated stance toward books quality (not that he has any obligations to do so) and most, if not all "franchise-based" books I've read were mediocre, with few shining moments on occasion.
I did some quick yahooing, it seems that books sold at price range 8-12 USD for paperback and more for other forms of edition. So if their quality (franchise isolated) is good, that's Ok price. If they as crappy as ME3 writing, well, no, thanks, I'll find better use for my money - new X-com is upcoming, for example.

The trio of books written by Drew were decent enough. Not pulitzer prize winners by any stretch of the imagination, but I personally thought they were entertaining, and easy reads. The Deitz novel does not count. Having said that, everyone who says they shouldn't have to look outside the game for pivotol plot information is correct. Plot relevant data needs to be in the game to form a cohesive story. But regarldess the OP is way off base with his assertion. The books and comics do nothing to explain the inconsistencies and the complete lack of logic regarding god kid, and how ME3 rendered ME and ME2 completely irrelevant. That's still what the majority of the complaints on here are about.