348 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Jamie9 wrote...

I think the problem is that many on this forum equate renegade with evil. That's not the case. Picking the renegade option doesn't make you evil, it just has you pick a more "pragmatic" option.

That's pretty much what I was saying...

[Eterna]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To me Destroy is the mass murderer of another species.

But what if there is no "another species"? i.e. The Geth were gone because no peace was possible between the Quarians and Geth? You had to choose. Quarians had the larger fleet.

You are still responsible for the death of the geth anyway.

Right. And at that moment in time they were not fully AI or fully sapient; they are simply machines. Only Geth VI was sapient, and you had orders from Hackett to deliver the Quarian fleet at all costs. So easy peasy lemon squeezy!

Since they're not sapient, you tell Geth VI to stop the upload and it attacks you. Then Tali kills it. And Gerrel and the Quarians wipe out the rest of the Geth that have done nothing but attack you or side with the reapers the entire 2.5 games (except for Legion). Done and done. Simple.

So essentially you let the Quarians take out the trash.

If it helps you sleep at night oh great genocidal paragon.

[Han Shot First]

Neither.

Destroy is the paragon ending choice. Besides Anderson (a paragon) being the avatar for Destroy, the best possible Destroy ending is more easily achieved if Shepard destroyed the Collector Base in ME2. (a paragon decision) In contrast TIM (a renegade) is the avatar for Control and the best possible Control ending is most easily achieved if Shepard kept the Collector Base in ME2. (a renegade decision)

Also, deciciding to become God-King of the Reapers is about as renegade a decision as you can get. Forcing synthesis on every one isn't a very paragon thing to do either.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Jamie9]

Taboo-XX wrote...
That's pretty much what I was saying...

Well then we agree! I guess the exact wording (paragon/renegade) was just semantics.

[Wayning_Star]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

I think the problem is that many on this forum equate renegade with evil. That's not the case. Picking the renegade option doesn't make you evil, it just has you pick a more "pragmatic" option.

That's pretty much what I was saying...

it entails independence, and a inherent disrespect for authority. Self proclaimed. Driven from within,not so much from outside influence. Make your own choices regardless of chain of command. ******,overbearing,obtuse. Indifferent and most times insensitive to others feelings as impertanant, sometimes enough to make Javik blush...lol

[teh DRUMPf!!]

TheWerdna wrote...

Synthesis is giving into what starchild wants and is forcing a change upon everyone in the galaxy without their consent "for their own good". That in my mind is very renegade.

You think that consent is on Destroy or Control's side, given all the options?

I can guarantee you lots of people around the galaxy would not consent to one of those if they knew what decisions were on the table. Many a synthetic would oppose Destroy. Hell, many organics are very close to synthetics: Rannoch peace, Joker/EDI, etc.

If Destroy and Synthesis violate free-will, it will only be once. Control is the greatest threat to continue that violation.

No matter how you spin it, your decision is going to make some folks happy, and ****** others off. For that reason, the issue of consent is really not worth lamenting.

[Vigilant111]

Jamie9 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That's pretty much what I was saying...

Well then we agree! I guess the exact wording (paragon/renegade) was just semantics.

The only bit associating destroy to renegade is that seemingly Shepard betrays EDI and the Geth, if you want to talk about semantics

Renegade is evil, but evil can get stuff done just like a paragon can, and being rational is not renegade-exclusive

[Wayning_Star]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That's pretty much what I was saying...

Well then we agree! I guess the exact wording (paragon/renegade) was just semantics.

The only bit associating destroy to renegade is that seemingly Shepard betrays EDI and the Geth, if you want to talk about semantics

Renegade is evil, but evil can get stuff done just like a paragon can, and being rational is not renegade-exclusive

Thats funny?!? I picked synthesis just cause everyone says it's bad? Now I'm confused..but only 40% renegade.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Senior Cinco]

Luchino1701 wrote...

Indeed, destroy is not paragon at all, you kill all synthetics, the reapers, the geth, EDi...
Also, note that Control is blue colored (paragon color), and Destroy is red colored (renegade color).
...

You actually see TIM as a Paragon. Besides not killing the Reapers for the sake of the Geth and EDI? Your not wiping out a race. They are Robots. 

To the guy that choose Syn and said the same choice was related to curing the Krogan...

No...it's not the same. The Krogan "wanted" that. It wasn't cast onto then without their knowledge. They consent to it. To forego Syn on the entire Galaxy is obsurd. You have no right to male that choice fore everypone. Wiping out the Geth and EDI for the destruction of the Reapers is a sacrifice of tools for the greaqter good. That is a Paragon option.

[Micon2]

I did choose Synthesis (only playthru, so far), but I was sorely tempted to go for Control, but I wasn't convinced that this would be a lasting for ever solution.
I read somewhere that if you choose Destroy, that you can survive, if your combined forces are > 5000.
In mine, I chose the "wrong" choice after Rannoch and Tali and all the Quorians died.
Is this the 4th option people talk about, actually surviving as a Human?
Do you really think there can there be a Mass Effect 4?

[XXIceColdXX]

Too many Geth/AI sympathisers here, I'm out.

I don't know why but robot/AI lovers remind me of Fang Bangers from True Blood. Weird.

[Comsky159]

What I say pertains to Paragon only.

Shepard's killed enough people in the name of the mission already. I chose the solution that saved everyone, and would allow Shepard (the single outlier in the catalysts plan and the only one capable of uniting synthetic and organics without bloodshed) to remain a presence as the galaxy's paternal figure in the wake of corporeal expiration. Without Shep, the galaxy eventually goes to hell again (being the starchild's anomaly) and so I'm willing to trust him with the role of galactic guardian; heck he's already nigh a deity in a lot of ways.

Ultimately I chose control because it seemed right, not because I was blindly following the ideals of another. Shepard can make his own decisions; he's not the obedient sheep of Anderson or TIM. When so many lives hang in the balance, you can't absolve to simply follow the orders of your superiors; use your own goddamn intellect. Choosing destroy because your military superiors want you to doesn't cut it in my mind; Anderson hasn't met legion, nor seen the Quarians/Geth reach peace; compared to Shep he's dreadfully ignorant and inexperienced faced with this kind of choice.

Absolute power can only corrupt absolutely in the wake of human frailty. Shepard sheds that frailty in control and becomes more than human. Now he can rebuild what was destroyed, leave a tangible, practical legacy to his benevolence and keep the peace that only he is capable of maintaining without the utility of an iron fist.

In light of all that; honestly the only real reasons I can think of to choose destroy are to get revenge on the Reapers (avatars of a twisted logic), save face in the wake of TIM's death, or save your own life. None of these to me warrant the destruction of a friend, an entire species and the galactic framework; unless you're one hell of a renegade.

Edit: Oh and synthesis is one of the more retarded 'solutions' I've ever encountered. I don't even bother considering it.

Modifié par Comsky159, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Vigilant111]

Senior Cinco wrote...

Luchino1701 wrote...

Indeed, destroy is not paragon at all, you kill all synthetics, the reapers, the geth, EDi...
Also, note that Control is blue colored (paragon color), and Destroy is red colored (renegade color).
...

You actually see TIM as a Paragon. Besides not killing the Reapers for the sake of the Geth and EDI? Your not wiping out a race. They are Robots. 

To the guy that choose Syn and said the same choice was related to curing the Krogan...

No...it's not the same. The Krogan "wanted" that. It wasn't cast onto then without their knowledge. They consent to it. To forego Syn on the entire Galaxy is obsurd. You have no right to male that choice fore everypone. Wiping out the Geth and EDI for the destruction of the Reapers is a sacrifice of tools for the greaqter good. That is a Paragon option.

I vividly remembered that doing what TIM wants in the Suicide Mission is considered renegade...hmmm, HOW did it change so quickly

[EnvyTB075]

Destroy.

[Senior Cinco]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Senior Cinco wrote...

Luchino1701 wrote...

Indeed, destroy is not paragon at all, you kill all synthetics, the reapers, the geth, EDi...
Also, note that Control is blue colored (paragon color), and Destroy is red colored (renegade color).
...

You actually see TIM as a Paragon. Besides not killing the Reapers for the sake of the Geth and EDI? Your not wiping out a race. They are Robots. 

To the guy that choose Syn and said the same choice was related to curing the Krogan...

No...it's not the same. The Krogan "wanted" that. It wasn't cast onto then without their knowledge. They consent to it. To forego Syn on the entire Galaxy is obsurd. You have no right to male that choice fore everypone. Wiping out the Geth and EDI for the destruction of the Reapers is a sacrifice of tools for the greaqter good. That is a Paragon option.

I vividly remembered that doing what TIM wants in the Suicide Mission is considered renegade...hmmm, HOW did it change so quickly

No kidding... Why that is blue is beyond me. the color obviously have nothing to do with it. Does anyone really see Anderson as a Renegade?

And that was another thing (off topic) It didn't make any difference on what you decided about that ship. There is still a Human Reaper in ME3 and it adds nothing to the game one way or the other.

[Vigilant111]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Too many Geth/AI sympathisers here, I'm out.

I don't know why but robot/AI lovers remind me of Fang Bangers from True Blood. Weird.

Now now, hate the ending, don't hate the robots, they did nothing wrong, they are just people. Otherwise you would just confirm what the Catalyst says is true

[JeffZero]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Too many Geth/AI sympathisers here, I'm out.

I don't know why but robot/AI lovers remind me of Fang Bangers from True Blood. Weird.

Yeah, that is weird. Toodles.

[Eterna]

Senior Cinco wrote...

Luchino1701 wrote...

Indeed, destroy is not paragon at all, you kill all synthetics, the reapers, the geth, EDi...
Also, note that Control is blue colored (paragon color), and Destroy is red colored (renegade color).
...

You actually see TIM as a Paragon. Besides not killing the Reapers for the sake of the Geth and EDI? Your not wiping out a race. They are Robots. 

I thought it would be fairly obvious that Shepard and the Illusive Man have different motives for controlling the reapers.

[JeffZero]

Comsky159 wrote...

What I say pertains to Paragon only.

Shepard's killed enough people in the name of the mission already. I chose the solution that saved everyone, and would allow Shepard (the single outlier in the catalysts plan and the only one capable of uniting synthetic and organics without bloodshed) to remain a presence as the galaxy's paternal figure in the wake of corporeal expiration. Without Shep, the galaxy eventually goes to hell again (being the starchild's anomaly) and so I'm willing to trust him with the role of galactic guardian; heck he's already nigh a deity in a lot of ways.

Ultimately I chose control because it seemed right, not because I was blindly following the ideals of another. Shepard can make his own decisions; he's not the obedient sheep of Anderson or TIM. When so many lives hang in the balance, you can't absolve to simply follow the orders of your superiors; use your own goddamn intellect. Choosing destroy because your military superiors want you to doesn't cut it in my mind; Anderson hasn't met legion, nor seen the Quarians/Geth reach peace; compared to Shep he's dreadfully ignorant and inexperienced faced with this kind of choice.

Absolute power can only corrupt absolutely in the wake of human frailty. Shepard sheds that frailty in control and becomes more than human. Now he can rebuild what was destroyed, leave a tangible, practical legacy to his benevolence and keep the peace that only he is capable of maintaining without the utility of an iron fist.

In light of all that; honestly the only real reasons I can think of to choose destroy are to get revenge on the Reapers (avatars of a twisted logic), save face in the wake of TIM's death, or save your own life. None of these to me warrant the destruction of a friend, an entire species and the galactic framework; unless you're one hell of a renegade.

Edit: Oh and synthesis is one of the more retarded 'solutions' I've ever encountered. I don't even bother considering it.

I disagree on Synthesis, but your writing on Control pretty much nails my reasons for two of my Shepards choosing it.
 

[Vigilant111]

Senior Cinco wrote...

No kidding... Why that is blue is beyond me. the color obviously have nothing to do with it. Does anyone really see Anderson as a Renegade?

And that was another thing (off topic) It didn't make any difference on what you decided about that ship. There is still a Human Reaper in ME3 and it adds nothing to the game one way or the other.

The only way to look at destroying the base as renegade is that Shepard betrayed TIM, but it really doesn't matter how TIM looks at it, the universe does not revolve around him

Gamers 1, TIM nil

Human reaper grants you some war asset points but yes it does not do much else in the story, maybe that extra 100 points give you an extra edge towards seeing that infamous breath scene

[erilben]

Senior Cinco wrote...
Does anyone really see Anderson as a Renegade?

Why do people think Anderson is this perfect pure paragon? He will support Shepard sacrificing the council in ME1. The characters aren't simply just paragon or renegade.

[Senior Cinco]

erilben wrote...

Senior Cinco wrote...
Does anyone really see Anderson as a Renegade?

Why do people think Anderson is this perfect pure paragon? He will support Shepard sacrificing the council in ME1. The characters aren't simply just paragon or renegade.

Who said anything about him being a "pure" Paragon? I just don't see him as a renegade. Look at his story about him and Saren. Saren took a Renegade route and killed thousands. He wasn't at all ok with that.

As far as the characters being one or the other...I ask again...You actually see TIM as a Paragon? Or even a Paragade? There is nothing Paragon about him. That leaves one to only include him in a Renegade aspect.

Modifié par Senior Cinco, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Han Shot First]

In light of all that; honestly the only real reasons I can think of to choose destroy are to get revenge on the Reapers (avatars of a twisted logic), save face in the wake of TIM's death, or save your own life. None of these to me warrant the destruction of a friend, an entire species and the galactic framework; unless you're one hell of a renegade.

Only Destroy guarantees with absolute certainty that the Reaper threat has been ended for all time. As such it is the only ending where Shepard has truly won.

Since both Control and Synthesis allow the Reapers to continue to exist, there will always remain a possibility that they could once again destroy civilization. Even making Shepard God-King of the Reapers is no guarantee of safety. After all every Reaper that has ever been created, starting with Harbinger, was created from a species that did not set out to become a Reaper and in most cases probably fought them. Despite this fact, every Reaper appears fully committed to converting other other species into Reapers and destroying anyone who resists. Choosing Control and hoping that Shepard (or the A.I. imitating Shepard) will retain Shepards morals and ideals, despite that never happening with any other Reaper is a massive gamble. Even worse it is a gamble where trillions of lives are at stake. There is no guarantee that at some point the Shepard entity won't end up turning the Reapers against the galaxy, just as the Catalyst had done before him.

Synthesis fails for similar reasons, though it is potentially worse in that it doesn't even have a Shepard entity as guardian. The Catalyst presumably remains in Control. What guarantee is there that he won't later come to view his Synthesis solution as imperfect, and requiring starting afresh with new species?

Destroy has another benefit: If the process of turning sapient beings into Reapers actually somehow uploads their conciousness to the machines and doesn't just mimic it, destroying the Reapers frees those organic souls trapped within. It is as much an act of mercy as it is an execution.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Fixers0]

The Twilight God wrote...
The narrative dictates indoctrination.

I think that's your imaginary speculation you're talking about.