348 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree with your ideals behind your reasoning, but I don't agree with the reasoning when it comes to the Reapers. I've always found Synthesis to be unconscionable; forcibly altering people's DNA in the name of "peace," and Control is far too dangerous for me ("abosolute powers corrupts absolutely"). I'm normally not an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, and I stated so in the Miri thread, but I am when it comes to this.

Remember, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're making a Renegade decision in this.

I don't think you're saying in wrong either, but I don't see destroy as Renegade decision. Anderson thought it was viable and the right choice, and he embodies what a Paragon is in the game.

This is an association fallacy. Just because someone appeared mostly Paragon throughout the game does not mean every decision he supports is Paragon. Just as the fact that TIM is the antagonist doesn't mean that every idea he ever had is bad. Or as the fact that Saren was an antagonist and wanted some unity of man and machine doesn't mean Synthesis is bad. I could as easily argue that Control is Paragon because it's the blue ending, and blue was always associated with Paragon in the game. That would also be a fallacy.

If Paragon and Renegade are loosely defined philosophies, then actions must be defined as Paragon or Renegade through these philosophies rather than irrelevant associations.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Vigilant111]

As far as I am concerned, every option has both paragon and renegade elements, yes that includes synthesis, regardless of subjective opinion

[Luxure]

Or as the fact that Saren was an antagonist and wanted some unity of man and machine doesn't mean Synthesis is bad

Haha. Hello buddy, sorry no.

You remember how much he wanted Synthesis ? Hmm ? Do you ? Do you ? I'll remind you. That's all he wanted, Synthesis. Up to the point where he's at the Citadel control panel and Shepard starts talking to him. Using the most powerful weapons ever known to man - words - to make him realize that he had those thoughts implanted inside his mind, because guess what, he was indoctrinated. When he realized that - with the help of Shepard of course - HE SHOT HIMSELF IN THE HEAD, just because he couldn't stand that terrible idea of Synthesis, and because he was going to be forced into "Synthesis" by those good ol' chaps the Reapers.

@OP Destroy.

Modifié par Luxure, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[Someone With Mass]

Neither, since both are a future depending on the Reapers.

If you destroy them, you're giving the galaxy a chance to make its own future without the influence of some delusional machine intelligence.

Luxure wrote...

Or as the fact that Saren was an antagonist and wanted some unity of man and machine doesn't mean Synthesis is bad

Haha. Hello buddy, sorry no.

You remember how much he wanted Synthesis ? Hmm ? Do you ? Do you ? I'll remind you. That's all he wanted, Synthesis. Up to the point where he's at the Citadel control panel and Shepard starts talking to him. Using the most powerful weapons ever known to man - words - to make him realize that he had those thoughts implanted inside his mind, because guess what, he was indoctrinated. When he realized that - with the help of Shepard of course - HE SHOT HIMSELF IN THE HEAD, just because he couldn't stand that terrible idea of Synthesis, and because he was going to be forced into "Synthesis" by those good ol' chaps the Reapers.

@OP Destroy.

This. I really don't understand how people can think that's what Saren really wanted, considering that Sovereign was manipulating him through his implants and the whole indoctrination thing.

It could have might as well been Sovereign telling Shepard that.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 07 septembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Hrothdane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Note that two prevalent reasons for choosing Destroy are 100% Renegade:

(1) "I won't let the Reapers get away with this" - Renegades believe in punishment, Paragons in redemption.
(2) "Destroy is the only way to guarantee the Reapers won't do something bad again." - Renegades kill to make 100% sure, Paragons believe in giving second chances.

There is really no arguing this. Those mindsets are established as Renegade repeatedly throughout all three games. If you choose Destroy for these reasons, you are making a Renegade decision.

Oh, but I will argue it. You make no differentiation between justice and punishment.

Going beyond the constraints of justice into the realm of punishment is a renegade action. The separation between justice may seem small, but it is significant and cannot be ignored. Justice is enacted without malice and is a function of order; it is a corrective reaction to an incorrect action. Punishment is enacted with malice and is an escalation of chaos; it is an incorrect reaction to an incorrect action.

Paragons distinctly favor justice and fairness, as evidenced by the paragon interrupt with the volus and C-Sec
officer accusing the quarian of stealing. They also support actions that enforce the letter of the law, such as turning in the evidence on the volus shipper during Samara's quest. Samara herself is a further example of a paragon that is compelled to kill when justice and her codecommand her to. Regardless of anyone's personal feelings towards her character, she is distinctly and consistently presented as a paragon character, even going so far as to only have romantic dialogue with paragons. She has no compunctions about giving out death if she is
forced to, and she does so dispassionately. Some paragons tend more towards good than lawful and
others more towards lawful than good, but they are all paragons. Notice as well that most of those "second chances" paragon Shepard gives out still must face the legal consequences of their actions.

When I say that the Reapers must be shut down, I do not say so with malicious intent. They have acted wrongly on such a wanton scale and with such lack of remorse or even respect that the only fair response is termination. A full pardon for such an extensive list of war crimes sets a precedent that many lovers of law shudder to consider. Actions must have consequences, and great and terrible actions must have great and terrible consequences. Those consequences must be administered dispassionately and without malice, but they must be administered.

Modifié par Hrothdane, 07 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[_FLANDERS]

I say Destroy, But you do lose EDi, the geth and all after you help, so It would be nice if you could save them because they did get you to where you are now.

[Helios969]

It depends on your thought-processes. For me it was destroy. I simply do not believe the Catalyst as to the consequences of the other choices...and any choice that leaves the Reapers around for future mischieve is a mistake. If it really was a choice between control and synthesis, I'd choose control and order the Reapers to gather up all their forces and fly into the nearest sun.

[kumquats]

Since my Paragon is a racist and a huge **** against everyone who works for Cerberus. I did choose Control.
Have fun with your racist Guardian. ;D

[Alien Number Six]

Control.....

You become the most awesome force for good in the universe. You do not change anything or anyone but yourself and the Reapers. You become the true Shepard. And if some outside force tries to crush your flock remind them of your strength. You where the Illusive Man's fail safe. He brought you back unchanged knowing you would make the right choice if he could not.

[shodiswe]

Alien Number Six wrote...

Control.....

You become the most awesome force for good in the universe. You do not change anything or anyone but yourself and the Reapers. You become the true Shepard. And if some outside force tries to crush your flock remind them of your strength. You where the Illusive Man's fail safe. He brought you back unchanged knowing you would make the right choice if he could not.

I like that interpretation.

It is at the same time disscincerting that TIM built in a failsafe that was supposed to get rid of Shepard once the Collectorbase had been secured...
A failsafe that EDI deactivated after she became free, which wasn't part of TIM's plan.

However, I don't think there is a perfect option.

I rate Refuse as the worst one however.

Destoy is tainted by what I consider genocide... It doesn't matter how much you object that killing a few billion people wasn't your goal, you decided that they were expendable and that their death was required for you to get what you want. That is the exact reason given by most people who commit genocide, the act itself isn't what they are after the act it just a means to an end of furthering their own agendas.
Sure, Shepard survives, the Reapers are gone... Long live the Leviathans!
Destroy was pretty bad before the leviathan DLC but I think it was jsut made worse by it  

If EDI's words are true everyone is more alive and happier than ever, their eyes have been opened, the have gained more knowledge and understanding than they had previously.
Knowledge gives alterantive rutes to avoid conflict, also knowledge is power and when it's shared it becommes harder for any one entity or faction to start a fight since they havn't got the advantage to assure a victory.
A littel bit like how democraticaly shared power tends to reduce the risk of violence and civilwar.

[d-boy15]

there is no paragon or renegade ending but if you want that so bad, each ending
can defined to be both.

[Destroy]
paragon - give a freedom and a chance for galaxy to create their own future.
renegade - sacrifice all synthetics life in order to stop the reaper.

[Control]
paragon - you end the war without sacrifice any race and maintain peace of
the galaxy as a reaper.
renegade - the peace you maintained is forced, shepard will be the one who
can decide the fate of the galaxy.

[Synthesis]
paragon - Archieved the peace forever, granted the knowledge of previous race.
next level of existance for both kinds.
renegade - forced ideal on everything, decide that you had the right to choose
for everyone.

[Refuse]
paragon - Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
renedge - do nothing and let everything gone to waste.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

1. I don't think renegades have morals, renegades have only oneself

Then you aren't thinking at all.

3. We don't know if there are souls, and we don't know if they are still living after being made into goo

We do know that there are gestalt intelligences, and we  do know the Mass Effect universe's not-so-subtle answer to the question of 'do AI's have souls?'

1. Hey, don't just insult me and walk away, you want to refute my proposal, then you have got some explaining to do

You hardly explained your own position, but sure: there are a large number of Renegade-aligned characters in the game that demonstrate compassion and concern for people other than themselves.

Even in ME1, Wrex, Ashley, Renegade!Kaiden, Renegade!Garrus, and even Renegade!Shepard can all demonstrate concern for people other than themselves. Even ****!Udina shows regard and concern for Human interests, rather than personal greed. The list gets even larger in ME2: Mordin who is tied to one of the most Renegade actions in the lore, Jack, and how you could forget Miranda is only explained by a lack of attempt. This is also ignoring the many Renegade justifications for Renegade actions that focus on 'greater good', a concept that is by its nature concerned with the well-being of other people.

Your proposal is refuted by the existence of Renegade characters, justifications, and themes that contradict it.

3. I am not talking about whether AIs have souls.  Read the post properly. Yes, gestalt intelligences which support the slaughter of so many

You were, however, talking about whether the Reapers can be considered alive. The Mass Effect franchise takes a less than subtle position of 'yes.' Even genocidal AIs are as 'alive' as organics.

[Senior Cinco]

erilben wrote...

TIM and Anderson are not really paragon or renegade. But you are saying Anderson is this paragon though, so every choice he would make must be paragon. According to you, Anderson is this "pure" paragon. He will never make a renegade choice, so destroy must be paragon.

Ok...

[Dean_the_Young]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree with your ideals behind your reasoning, but I don't agree with the reasoning when it comes to the Reapers. I've always found Synthesis to be unconscionable; forcibly altering people's DNA in the name of "peace," and Control is far too dangerous for me ("abosolute powers corrupts absolutely"). I'm normally not an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, and I stated so in the Miri thread, but I am when it comes to this.

Remember, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're making a Renegade decision in this.

I don't think you're saying I'm wrong either, but I don't see destroy as Renegade-exclusive decision. Anderson thought it was viable and the right choice, and he embodies what a Paragon is in the game.

Edit: ...or maybe I'm just a Paragon who thought a Renegade decision was for the best. Who knows.

Ieldra's point isn't that it's a Renegade-exclusive decision, but that you are making a Renegade justification for it (and thus, making it a Renegade choice). If you made a Paragon argument for it, it would be a Paragon choice.

It's not like killing or even genocide is antithetically Paragon as it is: there are enough cases in the ME game that it doesn't even raise on the karma-meter. It's the motivations AND tone that distinguish between them.

This is actually easier with the Control decision, because it's more clearly differentiated. Paragon control is more about using the Reapers to help others: Renegade control is about using the Reapers as a force to enforce your will. It's the same action, and may even be similar results, but the approach and tone are what distinguish them.

[Dean_the_Young]

d-boy15 wrote...

there is no paragon or renegade ending but if you want that so bad, each ending
can defined to be both.

[Destroy]
paragon - give a freedom and a chance for galaxy to create their own future.
renegade - sacrifice all synthetics life in order to stop the reaper.

[Control]
paragon - you end the war without sacrifice any race and maintain peace of
the galaxy as a reaper.
renegade - the peace you maintained is forced, shepard will be the one who
can decide the fate of the galaxy.

[Synthesis]
paragon - Archieved the peace forever, granted the knowledge of previous race.
next level of existance for both kinds.
renegade - forced ideal on everything, decide that you had the right to choose
for everyone.

[Refuse]
paragon - Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
renedge - do nothing and let everything gone to waste.

This is a good breakdown of the tone-differences between each decision.

[guacamayus]

-the removal of free will of every synthetic out there
-Catalyst 2.0... can't you see this guy coming up with a new solution in time?
-the Galaxy is policed by an AI with an army powerful enough to enforce its will unchallenged.

Synthesis may be forced or whatever (I don't really think this is such a huge problem btw, evolution is always forced, the difference this time is organics are able to control a part of the evolutionary process) however it seems to be a society governed by consensus, with a huge technological and social potential. And let's not forget about the singularity, this problem is resolved with success if you choose synthesis, controlling the reapers means a new solution or continue the harvest in time because it doesn't solve the singularity problem it only gives shepard the means to keep it under control, this is exactly what the catalyst was doing.

Anyway just my opinion I'm sure there can be other interpretations that make sense aswell seeing how little information we got about certain subjects.

[DirtyPhoenix]

guacamayus wrote...

-the removal of free will of every synthetic out there

Got any proof of this or are we dealing with head cannons here?

[The Angry One]

pirate1802 wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

-the removal of free will of every synthetic out there

Got any proof of this or are we dealing with head cannons here?

I've yet to see a proper explanation as to why the Geth are with the Reapers in the control ending rather than the Quarians.
Especially when the Geth want to be with the Quarians and loathe the Reapers. The implication is there.

Modifié par The Angry One, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vigilant111 wrote...

As far as I am concerned, every option has both paragon and renegade elements, yes that includes synthesis, regardless of subjective opinion

Are you sure?

[The Angry One]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

As far as I am concerned, every option has both paragon and renegade elements, yes that includes synthesis, regardless of subjective opinion

Are you sure?

Well, it can be viewed as paragon. From Shepard's perspective. That of a deluded, heavily concussed and dosed with several kinds of pharmaceuticals Shepard, of course.

[guacamayus]

pirate1802 wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

-the removal of free will of every synthetic out there

Got any proof of this or are we dealing with head cannons here?

Are you kidding me?  the wave takes control of the Geth, the Reapers and its troops, they could be free but instead are now under the control of this new entity...

Modifié par guacamayus, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[lillitheris]

The Angry One wrote...

Well, it can be viewed as paragon. From Shepard's perspective. That of a deluded, heavily concussed and dosed with several kinds of pharmaceuticals Shepard, of course.

^ That. Synthesis is evil (or Chaotic Stupid).

…

Control can be chosen for good reasons, and possibly even maintained as a force of good, so the choice is that or Destroy.

Edit: and Control can be used to remove the most abhorrent feature of Synthesis, the theft of free will. In Control, none of the structures required to enact Synthesis are destroyed. It can be studied and then entered into at a later time if deemed acceptable to the galaxy at large.

Modifié par lillitheris, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:56 .

[darkiddd]

destroy

[Someone With Mass]

pirate1802 wrote...

guacamayus wrote...

-the removal of free will of every synthetic out there

Got any proof of this or are we dealing with head cannons here?

Besides the fact that there's a seemingly all-powerful AI out there, which sole purpose in existence is to prevent any kind of conflict between organics and synthetics?

Hell, if anything, the Renegade Control ending seems to suggest that this AI puts the entire galaxy in an eternal police state, since it has "an army no-one will dare oppose" and that it'll "destroy the ones that threaten the future of the many".

Isn't it nice to know that you traded one villain for another?