19 réponses à ce sujet

[-Tentei-]

 Is it just me or is the valient the best sniper, I mean, it does good damge, doesn't weigh a lot, and has a three round mag.

[capn233]

It is amongst them if it isn't.

Here is a 22 page thread on the matter.

Granted, some of us were not completely on topic in the middle of it.

[TheTobifreed]

I think it comes down to play style.
Like, for me, the M-98 Widow is the best Sniper Rifle for my play style.

@Capn:
Interesting thread.

Modifié par TheTobifreed, 06 septembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Granted, some of us were not completely on topic in the middle of it.

Come on, we were.

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Come on, we were.

Yeah you are right.  All that whining from some of the other guys was completely unfounded.

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Yeah you are right.  All that whining from some of the other guys was completely unfounded.

/high5
What they knew?
And it was one of the best discussions I ever had for my 15+ years in internet. So, thank you very much for that.

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...

Rudy Lis wrote...

Come on, we were.

Yeah you are right.  All that whining from some of the other guys was completely unfounded.

GOING OFF TOPIC IS GOOD FOR THE SOUL AND SAVES KITTENS

[Rudy Lis]

JaegerBane wrote...

GOING OFF TOPIC IS GOOD FOR THE SOUL AND SAVES KITTENS

If that is gun-related, then it also increase your mojo and attractiveness!

[capn233]

Rubios wrote...

It is the most efficient one, tastes are like butts tho.

It's less efficient than the Black Widow on infiltrators.  It is probably better on nearly every other class though.

[-Tentei-]

I has a ridiculous reload time though.

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

It's less efficient than the Black Widow on infiltrators.  It is probably better on nearly every other class though.

What is so different on inflitrator? Cloak works somehow different than, say, Adrenaline?

[capn233]

Rudy Lis wrote...

capn233 wrote...

It's less efficient than the Black Widow on infiltrators.  It is probably better on nearly every other class though.

What is so different on inflitrator? Cloak works somehow different than, say, Adrenaline?

Yes it does in fact.  Mainly because cloak bonus duration is 2s after you break cloak, which is enough time to fire the whole clip from the Black Widow.  Then cloak minimum cooldown is in play which can then be used to reload cancel the Black Widow.  With the Valiant the rapid reload speed (which is the key to its higher sustained DPS over BW) does not synergize nearly as well with the short duration, short cooldown of cloak bonus and is much better paired with Adrenaline Rush (longer duration bonus).

And the damage bonus is such that you can one-shot basics with a body shot with the Black Widow which is not possible with the Valiant.  Additionally in order to get near the killing speed of the Black Widow against large targets you have to continually fire the Valiant in between cloak bonuses... and even doing so you aren't killing something like an Atlas faster.

If you can guarantee that you will always get headshots on the target, only then would the Valiant become superior on an infiltrator against low-mid tier enemies... and that is only if you can actually take advantage of the higher rate of fire via rapid transition between targets.

I am fairly certain that I described the test I did with them back to back on Noveria in that other thread.  Also tested ROF of the squad using various sniper rifles.

[Ares Caesar]

capn233 wrote...

Rudy Lis wrote...

capn233 wrote...

It's less efficient than the Black Widow on infiltrators.  It is probably better on nearly every other class though.

What is so different on inflitrator? Cloak works somehow different than, say, Adrenaline?

Yes it does in fact.  Mainly because cloak bonus duration is 2s after you break cloak, which is enough time to fire the whole clip from the Black Widow.  Then cloak minimum cooldown is in play which can then be used to reload cancel the Black Widow.  With the Valiant the rapid reload speed (which is the key to its higher sustained DPS over BW) does not synergize nearly as well with the short duration, short cooldown of cloak bonus and is much better paired with Adrenaline Rush (longer duration bonus).

And the damage bonus is such that you can one-shot basics with a body shot with the Black Widow which is not possible with the Valiant.  Additionally in order to get near the killing speed of the Black Widow against large targets you have to continually fire the Valiant in between cloak bonuses... and even doing so you aren't killing something like an Atlas faster.

If you can guarantee that you will always get headshots on the target, only then would the Valiant become superior on an infiltrator against low-mid tier enemies... and that is only if you can actually take advantage of the higher rate of fire via rapid transition between targets.

I am fairly certain that I described the test I did with them back to back on Noveria in that other thread.  Also tested ROF of the squad using various sniper rifles.

Its my first time playing the Infiltrator on Insanity right now, but I'm using the Valiant 5 (playthrough 1) on Xbox, and with Cryo Ammo and so far it 1 shots Marauders, Centurians, Cannibals, and Assault Troopers WITHOUT headshots. Of course the Marauders and Centurians I'm using energy drain to drop shields first, but the Assaul Troopers and Cannibals can be 1 shot with just the Valiant + Tactical Cloak. 

So unless playthough 2 drastically raises the health of enemies on Insanity, I dont see how it doesnt 1 shot enemies with body shots. (Keep in mind the Valiant will also go from level 5 to level 10).

Of course I do agree that the Black Widow is better against the high armored units (Ravagers, Brutes, Banshees, Geth Primes, Atlas)... but so far against all the infantry units I'd prefer the user friendly Valiant... especially since you can take a Harrier, Graal, Geth Plasma Shotty, or Adas combo for similar weight to the Black Widow by itself.

On my second playthrough I'll check back to update if things change and the Valiant cant 1 shot basic enemies anymore.

[capn233]

It was an import game, not playthrough II.

If you are in NG+ it might swing back the other way with Valiant X vs Black Widow X, but I was capped at V.  Enemy health scales up as Shepard increases in level.

What I originally wrote below:

N7 Cerberus Fighter Base
Infiltrator Level 49
DA 6 - Damage/Headshots/Damage
TC 6 - Damage/Recharge/SR Damage
OM 6 - Weapon Damage/Weight Capacity/SR Damage
N7 Armor + Kuwashii Visor (+5% Weapon Damage, +10% HS damage)
Intel Bonuses: +10% Weapon Damage

Black Widow and Valiant both at Level V with Extended Barrel V and SR Piercing IV. At this level, Black Widow has 3/19 for thermal clip capacity, and Valiant has 3/30 (Val never changes by level).

This mission was done right after Citadel Coup. I played it several times. This is a snapshot in time in a game. [Import ME2 Character] should in theory push the weapons hardest since weapons are capped at Level V and enemies scale with your level. However, there are more damage bonuses from armor available than what I took. There are 3 Hahne-Kedar armor pieces available at this stage of the game, or the Armax shoulders and arms if you prefer the headshot bonus.

Cerberus Assault Troopers: With the Black Widow you could one-shot them with a body shot under cloak bonus. Alternatively it took 1 headshot out of cloak or two body shots. With the Valiant, you can also potentially one-shot them in and out of cloak with headshots, but it takes 2 body shots in cloak, or 3 out of it.

Centurions - Both weapons can kill a Centurion with 2 headshots under cloak bonus. The Black Widow can also kill with 2 uncloaked body shots, whereas the Valiant cannot (it takes 3 body shots under cloak, or 5 without cloak).

Nemesis - Black Widow could kill it with two uncloaked body shots. The Valiant needed headshots to kill it uncloaked in 2 shots, otherwise it took 4 uncloaked body shots.

Engineer - This one is interesting in that I could fairly consistently shoot him through the torso with one shot from the Black Widow and cause his pack to blow up and kill him in a single shot. Otherwise it takes 2 shots if you don't hit the pack. With the Valiant it seemed like it never wanted to penetrate through the engineer and detonate the pack, which I don't understand because SR Piercing 4 should have sufficient cover penetration distance, so it must be the damage reduction that is preventing the pack from blowing up. You can kill the engineer with 2 cloaked shots, 2 uncloaked headshots, or 3 uncloaked body shots.

Guardian - There is only one on this mission and I didn't feel like extensively testing this. You can kill him in a single headshot from either weapon. I did however want to compare cover penetration so I took cloaked shots through the shield into the torso. Black Widow killed him in 2 shots, but Valiant took 4.

Atlas - Since the reload speed of the Black Widow jives well with the cloak cooldown, I only took cloaked shots with it. It took 9 shots to kill the Atlas (this is post patch). The 8th actually broke the canopy and the 9th killed the pilot and exploded the Atlas. Since the Valiant's ROF is higher and it has faster reload, I attempted to simply fire it as fast as possible. Fired 3 shots cloaked, then 3 more, then recloak and fire 3, and repeat. This took 18 shots. You are of course exposed to the Atlas longer if you fire the Valiant this way.

The Squad and Rifles:
I had Garrus and Ashley come along so I could re-check rate of fire on the Valiant specifically. They seemed to each fire about 1 shot every 3 seconds on average, with no attack order instruction, just parking them where they could see enemies. They would reload after the 3rd shot.

With the Mantis, they also fired an average of 1 shot every 3 seconds despite the fact that they reloaded after every shot. Likewise, the Black Widow also seemed to average about 1 shot every 3 seconds. They would reload after the 3rd shot. The Viper seemed to be fired at it's max ROF for a "burst" that was about 3 shots typically. I did not test them this time, but I know the squad also fired the Raptor and Indra more or less at their max rate of fire in bursts. I also know that Garrus seems to fire the Javelin and Widow similarly to the Black Widow and Mantis from previous games.

Modifié par capn233, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Rudy Lis]

capn233 wrote...

Yes it does in fact.  Mainly because cloak bonus duration is 2s after you break cloak, which is enough time to fire the whole clip from the Black Widow.  Then cloak minimum cooldown is in play which can then be used to reload cancel the Black Widow.  With the Valiant the rapid reload speed (which is the key to its higher sustained DPS over BW) does not synergize nearly as well with the short duration, short cooldown of cloak bonus and is much better paired with Adrenaline Rush (longer duration bonus).

Hmm, interesting. And smells of exploit a bit (of course, reload cancel (via spacebar) works opposite way with PPR, but besides Miranda, who's perfect?). I don't ask to fix it, I don't use it, so I don't care.

As for Adrenaline Rush, I tested it a bit and didn't noticed much of performance improvement. Of course, since it wasn't happening on shooting range in calm surroundings, I cannot replicate all conditions, but overall, at BW it took 8 shots VS 10 shots, Valiant took 12 VS 15, Indra was immovable - 75 VS 75 with and without Adrenaline Rush respectively. That's with IEA. In naked runs numbers were greater (minus Indra, I had enough trying to kill Banshees with ~600 rounds, no, thanks), but overall proportion remained, IIRC it was 13/16 for BW and 29/36 for Valiant. Granting that trade-off came with increased real time waste I don't think this is valid exchange, really.
But it's just me and I'm sick evil fcuk, I know it.

capn233 wrote...

And the damage bonus is such that you can one-shot basics with a body shot with the Black Widow which is not possible with the Valiant.  Additionally in order to get near the killing speed of the Black Widow against large targets you have to continually fire the Valiant in between cloak bonuses... and even doing so you aren't killing something like an Atlas faster.

I won't argue for abilities use, since I haven't used them, but with plain shooting I was able to bring anyone down faster with Valiant (if I could found spare ammo supply for Valiant in case of "naked" runs - plain armour and no mods, it wasn't enough to bring down, say banshee with 33 rounds, needed 36 for armour only, plus Barrier). Equipment and surrounding wise Valiant was faster and lost only to Indra with IEA (and sometimes WA/AP), obviously. After our conversations I tried to test DA/CA one more time, wasn't impressed in any way nor was able to find any use. Probably karma related.  Or just stupid - I didn't went army for nothing!

capn233 wrote...

If you can guarantee that you will always get headshots on the target, only then would the Valiant become superior on an infiltrator against low-mid tier enemies... and that is only if you can actually take advantage of the higher rate of fire via rapid transition between targets.

Well, I had no problems with headshots with Valiant, much to my own surprise: generally I'm not that good marksman and I doubt my ArmA experience helped - no straight line trajectory there since, I guess OFP 1.00.
And since by default there are no difference between characters, I guess there will be no difference on classes, it's more armour-weapon related bonus. Of course, passive damage boost is welcomed. If phrase above is correct, then Valiant will be better (with ample ammo supply), than any other SR just because of better ROF and little to no muzzle flip. On small-game it will take 1 headshot, on mid-game - 2 (not sure for Phantoms with their tendency to do barrel roll or "suffer" from it's damage resistance even when they not doing it, animation cycle break maybe?) and on big-game it's irrelevant, since none of them have soft-spot.

capn233 wrote...

I am fairly certain that I described the test I did with them back to back on Noveria in that other thread.  Also tested ROF of the squad using various sniper rifles.

I'm pretty sure you did, only I have tendency to forget things without constant practice and loss of interest - for about 2+ months I wasn't able to launch my ME3 at all. Well, I was able to launch, it just failed at "authentication" of installed DLCs.  So much for 80 bucks game support.

Ares Caesar wrote...

So unless playthough 2 drastically raises the health of enemies on Insanity, I dont see how it doesnt 1 shot enemies with body shots. (Keep in mind the Valiant will also go from level 5 to level 10).

Even if there is any health increase on + playthrough or it is tied to your character's level, I wasn't able to find difference. The only problematic area was Mars Beginning (till first gun bench), because sometimes weapon basic damage (naked, as I call it - no passive bonuses, no armour or mod bonuses) weren't enough to kill CATs with one headshot. That is correct for new, + and ++ playthrough, regardless of weapon and grade (even for "big three": BW, W and J, of course I could suck royally back then, but it wasn't once or twice, I replayed that area many times just to verify that, so I have to suck royally several times in a row; given that I never won in lotteries, go figure... Oh, wait, I don't play lotteries!). Say 20% damage bonus from my old time favorite Cerberus armour was enough to prevent this from happening.

Ares Caesar wrote...

Of course I do agree that the Black Widow is better against the high armored units (Ravagers, Brutes, Banshees, Geth Primes, Atlas)...

Actually doesn't. Those enemies lack any "soft spot", and by mere ROF Valiant will be faster. There is simply no enemy strong enough to withstand fire from Valiant long enough, where armour damage mitigation would make a difference. Especially if you have armour, mod, ammo and passive damage bonuses.
That's true for my soldier, and I haven't used Adrenaline rush in combat (unless I really needed to run away somewhere - with 30 seconds delay I couldn't afford to use it often; not that I wanted to, in first place).

[Astreon]

With its firing rate, lightning fast reload, and highest-in-class sustained DPS, the Valiant is by a considerable margin the best sniper rifle in multiplayer.

In single player, the Valiant doesn't hold such a big advantage, as it does 30% less damage. I'd wager the Krysae takes the crown there being in its original, un-nerfed state. I had problems with it though, the short time I tried using it—as if it wasn't scoring hits when it should have. It certainly didn't feel as powerful as I remember it being in multiplayer.

Modifié par Astreon, 07 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[ZombieGambit]

Valiant, I think.

It's extremely lightweight, does a decent amount of damage, and it's extremely accurate with minimal recoil and a fast rate of fire.

It's the kind of weapon that's great on any class, but is fantastic on an Infiltrator. Only the Indra can say the same thing, but in SP the Valiant completely outclasses the Indra.

[capn233]

On an Infiltrator I never found that I was really killing any faster with the Valiant compared to the Black Widow. And I never really found that anyone in MP was every beating me when they had a Val and I had a BW (even with the extra spare clip capacity you get on the Val in MP). Usually what I see is people just firing 3 shot bursts into nearly every enemy regardless of it is necessary and killing one or two units per cloak cycle.

If you are a good shot and get headshots each time sure, you can drop 3 targets rapidly, but in my experience it isn't really any faster than the Black Widow if you have to transition because the transition time is still relatively long compared to time between shots (especially in SP where many times enemies are spread out).

It really doesn't matter, if you like the Valiant on your infiltrator then that is fine. I run my QFI in MP with the Valiant usually (unless I know it is Reapers, then I might take Javelin X instead). For Soldiers and Casters I tend to go with Valiant if I am running an SR... but even the Viper is an ok weapon against basics to mid-tier enemies, especially if you use Disruptor or Cryo Ammo.