35 réponses à ce sujet

[rjshae]

At this point the OM is probably old hat to most of us long time NWN2 gamers. That got me to thinking about what would make the OM more ineresting. A few thoughts:

• It seems unlikely that the party could spot a group of monsters at a distance that is, in actuality, several days walk away. Perhaps some sort of fog-of-war should be introduced, such as fake monster spawns or monsters whose identity only becomes clear upon drawing nearer?
• The type of trade used on SoZ seems unrealistic unless the party is hauling around a team of pack animals. But what about gathering herbs for healing or alchemy. Would that type of system be interesting?
• I'd like to have some type of feedback on the map showing actual time flow so that it is clear the party is spending several days to get to a different locations. Should this be a meter, or perhaps a message at the start of each day? Maybe there should be a weather system that affects movement?

Any other thoughts on this? What would you add to provide more entertainment to the OM?

Modifié par rjshae, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Dann-J]

If the party leader in question has a good tracking ability, then it should be possible to have a rough idea of where monsters are even if they're quite some distance away. They would have to have already moved through the area though, and be behaving predictably. I suppose grey orcs with the scent feat might smell monsters that are upwind as well.

The trading system bothered me too. An all-halfling party wouldn't have much carrying capacity when it comes to inventory items, but apparently they have no trouble lugging about several crates of goods. I also found it hard to believe that an entire crate of ingots, timber or hides would be necessary to craft a single item.

There are various goodies on the OLM that allow you to gather already-made alchemical items, but a system where you gathered the ingredients and then crafted things yourself might be interesting. I was disappointed at how SoZ dumbed down crafting in general though.

It'd be great if different maps could have different time scales, but unfortunately the speed at which time progresses is set at the module level. In a campaign I suppose you could have a separate module just for overland maps, but there'd be no such work-around in non-campaign modules. The OLM already has a date/time indicator. Speeding up the rate at which time progressed should set it spinning at quite a noticable rate.

It'd be great if you could also dynamically alter things like cloud cover and weather, but these are set in stone for each area. Cloud cover isn't an issue on the OLM, since you can't see the sky, but you could certainly set the frequency and strength of rain on an OLM and have it's heartbeat script detect those random weather conditions. I've got an area HB script that changes the ambient sounds when it starts raining based on the strength of the rain, then sets the ambient sounds back to the area default when the rain stops. A system that altered movement speed based on the weather shouldn't be too difficult.

You could also abandon the in-built rain system and script a variety of weather conditions from scratch using placed effects. There are VFX for rain, snow, fog and dust already in the game.

[kamal_]

How about am OM that was fully documented and worked? Then the OM would be more interesting because we'd see it used more.

Frankly I don't like the locked camera. A system without the OM checkbox, which locks the camera and sets the ui, would be preferable. Just turn on the ui but don't lock the camera.

Zooming the sun/moon around the map to represent "correct" passage of time would likely look terrible. Just an "x time has passed" on entering regular maps would be far preferable for me.

I don't mind SoZ trade (other than it's tendency to produce near infinite gold). It's just an abstraction. It's not like one pc carrying 4 suits of armor is realistic... I've yet to see a module that uses SoZ trade anyway.

[Dann-J]

kamal_ wrote...

Frankly I don't like the locked camera. A system without the OM checkbox, which locks the camera and sets the ui, would be preferable. Just turn on the ui but don't lock the camera.

That would be fairly easy to accomplish - but then you'd have to spend a lot more time prettying up parts of the map that would otherwise not have been visible with the locked camera. Also, most of the specialised OLM placeables currently don't have polygons where a locked camera wouldn't be able to see them.

kamal_ wrote...

Zooming the sun/moon around the map to represent "correct" passage of time would likely look terrible.

I doubt that would even be possible, unless you rapidly switched between GUIs. Just having the existing static date/time icon rotating about on it's own axis, combined with the rapid day/night cycle of the area itself, should be enough. I think I'd set the OLM's lighting to not cast shadows though.

[Happycrow]

@DannJ: it'd be worth it, I think. That locked camera is PRECISELY why I have nothing to do with OMs. Now, as a builder I'm a rank neophyte compared to you guys...but I'd look into using it if the camera not locked, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

(no idea about the poly issue, though.  that's....bad)

Modifié par Happycrow, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Dann-J]

The specialised OLM placeables are all low-polygon, low texture quality affairs, often with no back faces in certain parts (like underneath the forest canopies). They were made specifically for an OLM with a static camera, so obviously the developers didn't waste time on details the player wouldn't have been able to see.

There's nothing to stop us using standard placeables on an OLM though. In fact, the Western Heartlands area around Gullykin in a module I'm working on uses speedtrees that sway in the wind instead of the static OLM tree placeables.

An OLM without a fixed camera angle wouldn't really be an OLM at all - just another area, where the player might happen to have been scaled down a bit, and where game functionality is greatly reduced (no attacks, spells, item use, etc). I could see how an OLM might work if you were able to just rotate the camera angle around the Z axis, but have no zoom or tilt capabilities. However a completely free camera (like in exploration mode) would seem to defeat the purpose of an OLM. It's supposed to be a map-like overview of the land.

Getting back to the original thread; Rjshae has given me a great idea. I'm going to experiment with localised weather conditions on my OLM (rain, fog, dust storms). Each will occur in a random place, and continue for a random length of time, with search/survival skill penalties applying if you get too close. I'm also thinking of applying such penalties at night, when visibility is reduced, and seeing if I can stack that with weather conditions.

I think rain will have the least effect, fog a bit more, with a dust storm causing the biggest penalties. I'll restrict some weather types to specific times of day (fog in the morning, dust storms during the day, rain at any time). Hopefully it'll be a bit like the storms you encountered while on the sailing OLM in Dark Waters.

[rjshae]

kamal_ wrote...

Zooming the sun/moon around the map to represent "correct" passage of time would likely look terrible. Just an "x time has passed" on entering regular maps would be far preferable for me.

I don't mind SoZ trade (other than it's tendency to produce near infinite gold). It's just an abstraction. It's not like one pc carrying 4 suits of armor is realistic... I've yet to see a module that uses SoZ trade anyway.

Yes, I turned off the day/night cycle on the OM because it was unrealistic compared to the distance being travelled.

A trade system that used fewer, higher valued resources would probably be more realistic for PCs. They wouldn't need to carry as much, but it would need better protection. Maybe a system based upon precious uncut stones, spices, rare ores, and unique crafting materials? The more valueable the goods being carried, the greater the likelihood that organized and better-equipped bandits would try to ambush and waylay the party. Hmm, this is giving me a few ideas.

...

For a herb-gathering system, maybe a few global variables could be used to track the distance travelled against the type of terrain passed through. Depending on those parameters, the party would receive some amount of herbs whenever they enter a tactical area. Those could then be sold or used to craft potions.

[I_Raps]

The best thing you can do to make the OM more interesting is better encounters. Most of the SOZ encs. are pretty meh, especially since they don't scale.

I have used the Deadly SOZ Encounters mod from the day it was released, and it is good. But those encs. are all quite high (Epic, in fact); so I have created some of my own for CR's 15-20 - and it is very good. I strongly recommend this.

[I_Raps]

... And while I'm at it ...

More and more various mini-maps for the fights would be good. I have toyed with the idea of creating maps with various placeables (rocks, trees, quicksand patches, etc.) which wouldn't always appear, but would spawn randomly. This would definitely change the appearance of the maps and might change the tactics somewhat (providing cover or obstacles, for example). What I don't know is whether it's feasible at all.

[rjshae]

I_Raps wrote...

... And while I'm at it ...

More and more various mini-maps for the fights would be good. I have toyed with the idea of creating maps with various placeables (rocks, trees, quicksand patches, etc.) which wouldn't always appear, but would spawn randomly. This would definitely change the appearance of the maps and might change the tactics somewhat (providing cover or obstacles, for example). What I don't know is whether it's feasible at all.

I agree that variety in the encounter maps would be welcome. I try to create multiple creatures of a particular type (ex. hobgoblins) so that it doesn't feel like you're just fighting clones. Surprise also helps; causing additional enemies to appear several rounds after the fight has begun definitely makes a fight feel more challenging.

It should be possible to randomly spawn obstacles like rocks. I'm not certain about trees, except for the fallen placeable kind. A fun novelty is to have a few debris placeables lying around, then have them explode to reveal ambushers when a PC gets too close. A couple of maps with a river or stream obstacle also makes it tactically interesting, as does an old ruin or an overgrown mine. ...I need to start making more maps...

You could also vary the weather and the lightning conditions. A heavy rain with thick fog can increase the uncertainty factor by limiting vision. Maybe have a fight using fire-based magic start a smokey grass fire. (Hmm, that should be scriptable...)

Modifié par rjshae, 07 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[kamal_]

rjshae wrote...
 ...I need to start making more maps...

I released about 25 encounter maps as a pack, including pretextured base maps. nwvault.ign.com/View.php

[MokahTGS]

kamal_ wrote...

How about am OM that was fully documented and worked? Then the OM would be more interesting because we'd see it used more.

Start here.  I wasted possibly a year figuring out the SoZ OM.  No documentation, very little help, and nasty bugs that persist to this day. Without Wyrin's work I would have gotten nowhere.

The Jabberwocky OM is pretty full featured, but is limited by the SoZ system.

[Shaughn78]

The OLM is definitely different and difficult to work with. It has been a year since I worked on my map. It's about 75 percent complete. I like the camera lock for some of the same reasons that DannJ mentioned. You have the ability to angle that camera as well with the potential of making each map unique. That angle makes it a bit more difficult with building, you need to make sure that all the important stuff will be visible once the camera locks and I would always spend all sorts of time tweaking a piece of land that will never be seen.

One of the biggest challenges is finding all the pieces. Wyrin's White Plume Mountain is a great resource to find scripts, conversations, 2da and UIs that are buried in SOZ.

Goodies, in SOZ were horrible. I plan on creating a system that spawns in useable items that require skill checks to obtain items, much like wyrin's foraging system. This is down low on the stuff to do list.

Monsters need to have variety. In the swamp I have 3 different lizardfolk groups that wander the map and in battle there is 7 different types of lizardfolk that can appear depending on the group. SOZ had 1 swamp encounter screen and I plundered a few from WPM. The same fight screen will become old after a while if the party is expected to fight their way through the OLM.

One thing that I tried which as turned into a bit of a pain was to create a 50 percent scale. On the OLM I have a graveyard. Crypt, fences and grave stones are all laid out. My goal is to recreate that area nearly identical but in a regular exterior area that the party can explore more in depth. By using the scale I just shrunk buildings, trees and whatever else I wanted in my swamp.

One thing that I think would be fun is to create more neutral random encounters. Something fun to build and a neat discovery for the player. I've recently been playing the old fallout games and this was a specialty of theirs. Granted some were immersion killing but they were still a lot of fun.

Well that is it for now. Looking forward to seeing more OLM content.

[rjshae]

With the OM set to no day/night cycle, I didn't like the directional light setting. I ended up modifying the Sun's position to have it placed lower in the sky toward the lower left of the map. This really brings out the subtle terrain features and gives more satisfying ground colors. Unfortunately it also caused the placeables to cast long shadows across the ground, so I set them to not cast shadows. Finally, I gave it just a tinge (10%) of color desaturation so that it doesn't look quite so photo-realistic. The net effect seems to give pretty decent results, at least on my map.

I really wish I could make the image have a sepia hue; that would make it look more like a map. (I don't suppose there's a visual effect that could produce that result?) It's also too bad the fog is turned off; that would be useful for obscuring more distant objects.

Modifié par rjshae, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[kamal_]

You can make any hue you want via area lighting. Misery Stone has standard maps, and area lighting makes it look like that.

[Shaughn78]

The desaturated may also add to a sepia hue with the correct area lighting as well.

[Dann-J]

I prefer to keep day/night cycles on for the overland map, although I don't allow the lighting to cast shadows (terrain relief is always shaded even with shadows off). I apply penalties to search and survival skills during the night. I'm thinking of increasing the listen and hide skills as well.

I've now got localised weather conditions on my OLM. So far I've created rain, hail, fog and dust storms, each of which alters various skills by varying degrees. Search and survival tend to be reduced, whereas hide tends to increase, when you enter a weather system. I also increase move silently during hail and dust storms.

Hail storms force you to make a fortitude save vs a random DC (between 15 and 25 currently) or the party is slowed for a round (with another saving throw each round). Wearing any equipment that protects from cold damage negates being slowed (as would anything with free action).

I originally had dust storms force a fortitude saving throw against confusion, but the problem was that you occasionally tried to attack friendly or neutral encounters. I changed it to stun the player instead (representing the party hunkering down to wait out the worst of the dust storm).

Modifié par DannJ, 09 septembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[rjshae]

DannJ wrote...

I prefer to keep day/night cycles on for the overland map, although I don't allow the lighting to cast shadows (terrain relief is always shaded even with shadows off). I apply penalties to search and survival skills during the night. I'm thinking of increasing the listen and hide skills as well.

Something I thought about doing is to use a wide radius light source centered on the party and then leave the remainder of the area at a dusky lighting level. That would produce something of a fog-of war effect, although the terrain highlight may not be as effective. Possibly the day-night cycle could be implemented by keeping the light level the same and just varying the desaturation and color mix. (i.e. night goes to 90% color desaturation, &c.) It would give it a different look at any rate.

[Dann-J]

That's pretty much what the SoZ overland map does. Night isn't all that darker than day - just a bit bluer.

I like the idea of spawing a light effect on the party at night. You'd have to put it on every party member, since you never know which one you might switch to. I wonder if the script-hidden party members would still cast light though? It seems they stay where you left them until you select them again, then they jump to the last leader's position on being unhidden, so if they do give off light effects you could end up having several of them dotted about the OLM.

EDIT: It might be possible to tie the addition/removal of the light effect to event number 2052 (EVENT_PLAYER_CONTROL_CHANGED), while checking that the area is an OLM and it's night time. I know you can do this via a companion's custom user-defined script, but surely there's a module-wide one that will pick up the event as well (if only for the PC)?

You could add in a check for characters who have infravision, and give the light a red tinge (and perhaps a greater range) like in Baldur's Gate.

Modifié par DannJ, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[rjshae]

DannJ wrote...

You could add in a check for characters who have infravision, and give the light a red tinge (and perhaps a greater range) like in Baldur's Gate.

Interesting idea. Thanks.

Another notion that might make the OM more map-like is a method of leaving a set of tracks where the party has travelled. Maybe the heartbeat script can check the party's progress then plunk down an Ipoint at the previous location with some type of marker or placed effect. Over time the Ipoint can (somehow) fade the marker until it finally cleans itself up after a number of rounds have passed.

[Dann-J]

It might be possible to create an effect you can apply to the player that leaves a trail behind them that fades by itself. There are plenty of weapon-trail effects in the game that do something similar, although you'd want to use a projected texture instead of a particle effect.

You could easily have the area HB script plonk down a temporary location effect every six seconds that fades after several rounds (no Ipoint required). Although every six seconds might leave quite a gap between prints. Another option would be to create a script-hidden creature (with AI turned on) and speed up it's HB rate to once every second.

[Dann-J]

Here's a very basic night light function that can be added to the OLM's area HB. I'm using something a bit more complex (which includes search/survival penalties). The colour and extent of the light effect depends on what vision feats you have.

void NightLight()
{
int iNight = GetIsNight();
object oPC = GetFirstPC();
if (GetHasSpellEffect(550, oPC) == iNight) return;

object oPartyMember = GetFirstFactionMember(oPC, FALSE);
while (GetIsObjectValid(oPartyMember))
{
if (GetHasSpellEffect(550, oPartyMember) && iNight == 0)
{//remove effects during the day
RemoveEffectsFromSpell(oPartyMember, 550);
return;
}
if (!GetHasSpellEffect(550, oPartyMember) && iNight == 1)
{//add effects during the night
int iLight = 153;//blue light 5m
if (GetHasFeat(354, oPartyMember))//low-light vision
iLight = 178; //green light 10m
if (GetHasFeat(228, oPartyMember))//darkvision
iLight = 167 //red light 15m
effect eLight = EffectVisualEffect(iLight);
eLight = SetEffectSpellId(eLight, 550);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_PERMANENT, eLink, oPartyMember);
}
oPartyMember = GetNextFactionMember(oPC, FALSE);
}//while (valid object)
}

[kamal_]

rjshae wrote...

DannJ wrote...

You could add in a check for characters who have infravision, and give the light a red tinge (and perhaps a greater range) like in Baldur's Gate.

Interesting idea. Thanks.

Another notion that might make the OM more map-like is a method of leaving a set of tracks where the party has travelled. Maybe the heartbeat script can check the party's progress then plunk down an Ipoint at the previous location with some type of marker or placed effect. Over time the Ipoint can (somehow) fade the marker until it finally cleans itself up after a number of rounds have passed.

Indiana jones style trails have been done. I forget who did it, but they demonstrated it via their blog.

[Dann-J]

The script-hidden AI-enabled creature method certainly works. I sped up its heartbeat to once per second, and put in checks to abort if the player wasn't in the area, or if GetCurrentAction of the current party leader on the OLM didn't equal ACTION_MOVETOPOINT (so effects don't get layed down on top of each other if you stand still).

The effect I'm using is an additive projected texture of two vertically offset prints (stolen from the texture for the human track placeable). The gap between the print pairs can be quite large even at once per second, so a better approach would be to have two separate print effects (left and right) that get layed down alternately (with a slight offset either side). A local variable flipping between 1 and -1 on the creature running the HB would do the trick.

The description of SetCustomHeartbeat suggests it works on placeables as well as creatures, so I may be able to replace my invisible 'Track Rat' with an Ipoint. I'm rather fond of Track Rat though, and he works just as well.

What would be really cool would be if wandering monsters could pick up your trail and follow it to you - even if you successfully hid from them. Since I'm not having hostile encounters on my OLM, I'm not planning on seeing if that's feasible though.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

For tracking, you could have a heartbeat that drops a waypoint at the player's location, with either a tag that increments like regular waypoints, or a local variable that marks the time. Then, for the monsters, when they can't perceive the player, you can script them to move towards the nearest track waypoint, and then towards a younger waypoint once they've reached the first one.