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[terdferguson123]

Does anyone think that there is some greater underlying connection between Lyrium and the Darkspawn, or at least the Old Gods? I cannot help but notice the similarities between the rare occurences where we deal with primeval lyrium (like Branka in DA:O or the Lyrium Idol in DA2) as having very similar effects as that of the Darkspawns search for the Old Gods.

A few interesting similarities

- Grey Wardens and also Darkspawn seem to always hear the "calling" of the old gods which is similar to a song as they described. Regarding the Darkspawn, the song makes them continue to search and search until the old god is unearthed.

- Several occurences throughout both games we have characters mention how certain types of Lyrium "sings" to them or alters there thoughts.

Examples: 

1.) Branka becomes obsessed and seems somewhat possessed by the Lyrium in the Deep Roads
2.) Bartrand's lyrium idol causes him go mad and he talks about the fact that even though he got rid of it, the lyrium still "sings" to him.
3.) In Awakening, Justice mentions that when wearing the Lyrium Ring that you give to him as a present he can hear it's "song"

Now, the last thing that I found to be interesting between this possible connection takes place in the novel Asunder:

Cole mentions twice throughout the novel that he can hear singing, once when they use lyrium to enter the fade, the second when he runs into darkspawn for the first time. His situation is unique though, because he is a spirit/demon. However, I found it to be interesting that even though he is not a darkspawn or grey warden, that he hears the old god calling, as well as the lyrium song.

I might just be reaching here, but there seems to be some kind of connection here outside of the fact that they both come from the deep roads. Any thoughts?

Modifié par terdferguson123, 06 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[Renmiri1]

Interesting.

Justice is a spirit and hears Lyrium singing. So does Cole. Are Darkspawn corrupted spirits ?

[whykikyouwhy]

Lyrium is called "waters of the Fade." When in the Fade, we encounter "raw lyrium."  So lyrium isn't just something that allows access to that other realm - it runs through it in some way, is perhaps the foundation upon which the Fade is built.

If we take the Chantry's story of the darkspawn/Blight's origin to have a measure of truth, at least as far as timing and happenstance, then perhaps lyrium was involved...directly or indirectly, with the breach into the Golden City. That would mean that much of who or what darkspawn are is wrapped up tightly into what the City is/was - promised paradise, separate realm of the Fade, prison or Pandora's box, etc. Suppose we say that when the magisters attempted to enter the City, they encountered the rawest of the raw lyrium, or some sort of pure lyrium, or...to go further into the speculation track...run-off or refuse from lyrium - it's opposite form. Some sort of lyrium anti-matter. And in creating that connection between the mortal world and the City with whatever ritual they used to enter it, the darkspawn were born and became creatures of the living realm. 

Just guesses, of course, but it would explain the shared connection to the calling, to the music. I think that part of the puzzle, to understanding the darkspawn and the alternate realms such as the Fade, can be found in the City. So maybe if, in a future game, we stumble upon another magister, we'll get a few more clues.

[Anvos]

Taken from my debate with splicen over Liliana and the Urn of Sacred Ashes

To Your Point On the Golden City
 
1.  You missed a few words there that make a world of difference.  Corpyheous states that the Golden City was already black on the inside when they arrived.  Plus it’s a bit vague but he also implies the magisters were misled about what they would find in the Golden City.  This already throws into doubt one of the key tenants of the chantry that the magisters caused the corruption of the Golden City and instead the corruption was already there and they only brought the blight back by accident and not some punishment that made the maker turn away.  
 
As for what the blight is if not the punishment of the maker.  Here is my belief, the creation myth says the maker first made the fade, the golden city, and the creatures of the fade, but the original fade beings only mirrored the golden city (this makes sense as before the physical plane the only thing that had true meaning (since it is the only stable thing within the fade, beyond the formless essence of the fade beings) was the Golden City.   A reflection is never 100% the same as the object it is reflecting however, and over time as newer fade beings came into existence some of them began mirroring mirrors of the Golden City and not the Golden City itself and over time (well not the best word but closest fit for meaning) the process continued and the image became more and more distorted until it  created something you’d never recognize as the original image, and thus the corruption that caused the divide between the fade spirits and demons was born.  At some “time” later the maker takes an observation of his creation and expels the fade demons and spirits and then attempts to seal off the Golden City from the rest of the fade in an attempt to stop the spread of the corruption, but the corruption had already taken root in the Golden City.  Thus later on when the magisters find a way to make a physical body not only enter the fade (likely has something to do with needing a physical form to overcome the forces keeping spirits out of the Golden City) but the Golden City the magisters were exposed to the corruption and when the magic holding their physical form in the fade ended the corruption was brought back with them and became the blight.  From there some of the magisters then go to Dumat’s lair to inquire what was happening and why they hadn’t warned them and accidentally spread the taint to Dumat, and then the rest is history.

/end

Taken from my post in the thread on what tevintar soldiers look like


Also there is this more theory of mine that the Ancient High Dragons have a very strong fade connection that is strong enough for them to lay claim to their own section of the fade and as a result they would gain a following of weaker and younger demons who seek them out for protection.  This would explain how the archdemons are connected to all darkspawn and able to command them over long distances, why the darkspawn are drawn towards the lair of ancient high dragons, why demons keep showing up near the horde, and why wardens can feel and interpret the call more in their sleep.  Plus it provides an explanation for how Dumat’s altar still works when as far as we know Dumat was the first Ancient High Dragon to be blighted and slain as though Dumat may be gone the demons and spirits that paid homage to her (I think it’s a her though I’ve got my doubts that the people of the andrastian nations are correct in saying only females grow that big and powerful) would still likely occupy that area of the fade with the strongest demon taking over.  Oh and there is the whole thing of Anders who already has a foot in the fade being more vulnerable to Corpyeous’ imitation old god call than Hawke’s brother or sister if they’re a warden that would be explained by this theory.

/end

Along with that there is also other things that seem to support this

1. As far as we know there is a fade spirit type for every fade demon type
Faith and Pride
Compassion and Desire
Fortitude and Sloth
Justice and Rage
Temperance(not sure if this is the right name for this one) and Hunger

2. If you watch justice throughout the games you'll notice he's slowly becoming more and more like a spirit of vengence than justice and vengence is really only 1 step away from blind rage.

Modifié par Anvos, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[EricHVela]

Corypheus states that they sought the Golden Light and not a city of any kind. I think the Golden City is an interpretation of something that the ancestors didn't understand and/or that the descendents never witnessed. I think the Black City isn't what the Chantry describes it to be. (EDIT: "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?")

I would guess that lyrium exists in two states at the same time, in the "real" world (of Dragon Age) and the Fade. That could explain the insanity and/or addiction that can come with lyrium contagions -- a consciousness existing in both the real world and the fade at the same time. (Even mages put their whole minds into the Fade while their bodies remain behind instead of having any conscious awareness outside the Fade.)

What the Dragons did with lyrium is anyone's guess, but I suspect they all meddled with it enough to see into the Fade while still conscious in the physical world. I've played with the idea that Dumat heard another "song" coming through the Fade -- a voice that told him how to reach the Golden Light -- possibly, a voice that wanted to breach the Fade from another world/existence/dimension/whatever and lied to Dumat to make that happen, spilling demons and spirits and other taints into the Fade, infecting the first Darkspawn and, eventually, the sleeping Dragons that are still linked to the Fade.

All conjecture, of course.

EDIT2: (Based on my suggestion that Dragons are connected to the Fade due to meddling with lyriun:) What if Flemeth is a Dragon that's not connected to the Fade -- a Dragon that didn't mess with Lyrium, didn't become attuned to it and didn't sleep like the others.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[Renmiri1]

Or Flemeth could be an Old God Baby from a previous blight...

[Anvos]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Or Flemeth could be an Old God Baby from a previous blight...

Problem is none of the stories surrounding her say she had above normal power until the incident with her husbands, plus to be an old god baby its likely you would have to be born shortly after a blight and currently the only known way involves high amounts of magic, and also we lack evidence of any of the previous wardens that slew the archdemon surviving.  Also the Fen Harel(sp?) theory makes a bit of sense if you look at the elven gods as demons and fade spirits that were posing as gods to the arlathan civilization.

Modifié par Anvos, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Dagr88]

More speculation:

992 TE: Dumat is slayed by Grey Wardens
1020 TE: A massive horde of barbarians cross the Waking Sea from the south led by the warlord Maferath and Andraste, the Betrothed of the Maker.

If She is 27-28 years old at that time...

There is a very-very-very-very small hint that her bloodline might be connected to Marric's.

Dragons taught mages (humans) blood magic. Blood (life force) is the source of power similar to Lyrium. Darkspawn have corrupted blood and connected by it. GW and darkspawn hear "the song" from non-corrupted Old Gods and Archdemons, not from lyrium. Corrupted Aluvian in Dalish Elf origin seams to have connection to Archdemon.

There were times before Veil (where the demons lived at that time?). Once all elves could use (lyrium based) magic. It's presumed by elves that they lost contact with their gods when their capital was about to fall to humans.

Humans + Dragons  vs  Elves + Their Gods. Legend about how Elven gods and Old gods were imprisoned in two different realms.

Morrigan used Aluvian to travel to the realm beyond the Fade.

Modifié par Dagr88, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[Renmiri1]

Another thing that makes me suspect Flemeth of being an OGB is the concoction Wardens drink on the joining. It is not just made of darkspawn blood. It also has Archdemon blood. How did Wardens get a hold of that ? Unless they had a very handy way to get Old God blood...