319 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Is this what passes for an argument? Saying "you got burned"? We don't need you to shill anyone for us.

[elitehunter34]

The Angry One wrote...
Yes and you ignored what I said because you keep insisting EDI is somehow the same as the Catalyst.

Let me spell it out for you:

Cerberus - "We have no problems using AIs to solve our problems."
Shepard - "I have no problem with an AI that's proven reliable being my ally and helping to solve my problems."
Leviathans - "We disapprove of any kind of AI and do not want anyone to create AIs to solve their problems."

Now, out of these 3, it is okay for Cerberus to create AIs because they don't give a ****.
It is okay for Shepard to use AIs, especially if you have always played a Shepard sympathetic to them.
It is not okay for the Leviathans to do it, because they tell everyone else not to and think it's bad!

Let's make it even simpler.
Neither Shepard or Cerberus has seen a civilisation entirely annihilated by AIs in their lifetime.
The Leviathans have. Therefore, the Leviathans saw a civilisation destroyed by their own AIs and said "Let's do what they did to prevent others from doing what they did!". Uhuh.

Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

Not only this, but  why would the Leviathan's even choose such a solution to the problem at hand.  The Leviathan's problem was that their subserviant races were being destroyed by their AI creations.  Why didn't the Leviahthans simply use force and threats to shut down any race that tries to create AIs.  The Levithans would have hard evidence to prove that AIs rebel and they could threaten any race that  tries to create AIs.  It just doesn't make any sense why the Leviathans would do try to create an AI to solve the problem when AIs are the problem, and it would be much simpler to use threats and force.  Threats and force seem like the things the Leviathans would use anyways.  The writers dug themselves into a hole when they created the Catalyst, and with Leviathan the hole just keeps getting deeper.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[SkullStrife]

That drawing is so WRONG!

The Leviathan believes that machines are the problem... and creates a machine (with no feelings, this is essential because it does only calculate and brings a cold answer...) to solve the problem originated apparently by their pawns creating machines... that´s why Levis are dumb...

Shepard who has already started to understand synthetics and actually see that they are not the issue (after meeting Legion) accepts the help of an unshackled AI (unshackled by the cricumstances) and after seeing that EDI never tried to kill them accepts her help (also the fact that she no longer serves as a spy for TIM)

The Catalyst was created to be totally dependant of his programming, of his prime objective, is a pure synthetic with a specific agenda..... and did so against the will of his creators....Levis were making the same mistake their pawns made, using synthetics as slaves for a purpose.... they made the same mistake trying to solve their mistake... GENIUS....................On the contrary EDI became more and more "alive" thanks to Shepard and Joker... she wasn ´t a tool anymore she became a crew member... if you are an equal (truly) you won´t rebel... also she developed free will, the catalyst "still serves it´s purpose"

that´s why your picture is so wrong, thos are totally different cases... and Shepard does not consider synthetics per se a threat

Modifié par SkullStrife, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[I am Sovereign]

MegaSovereign wrote...

There can be only one Sovereign, OP.

I would challenge you but you'd just be fumbling in ignorance.

I was a Reaper before it was cool. 

[CaptainZaysh]

The Angry One wrote...

Cerberus - "We have no problems using AIs to solve our problems."
Shepard - "I have no problem with an AI that's proven reliable being my ally and helping to solve my problems."
Leviathans - "We disapprove of any kind of AI and do not want anyone to create AIs to solve their problems."

Now, out of these 3, it is okay for Cerberus to create AIs because they don't give a ****.
It is okay for Shepard to use AIs, especially if you have always played a Shepard sympathetic to them.
It is not okay for the Leviathans to do it, because they tell everyone else not to and think it's bad!

Think of it in terms of the nuclear deterrence argument.  The US does not want a nuclear apocalypse and yet one of the tools it uses to prevent it is a nuclear arsenal.

The Angry One wrote...
Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

I think the whole plot hinges on this issue - the Catalyst would argue that its creator race wasn't killed, merely preserved.

[fr33stylez]

Who really cares where the Reapers came from? In the end, they're reduced to mindless minions controlled by some idiotic AI that has you by the nuts. Every insidious action done by the Reapers (Indoctrination, turning families into husks, triggering wars, blending people) has taken a backseat to the Catalyst's 'Problem' which we are forced to 'solve'.

The King of the Reapers literally saves the day in ME3 - if not Shepard would've just bled out in front of the control panel without the Crucible firing.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[I am Sovereign]

David7204 wrote...

Is this what passes for an argument? Saying "you got burned"? We don't need you to shill anyone for us.

Just a little joke, don't get your jimmies rustled and stick to the topic.

[MegaSovereign]

The Catalyst has a mandate to preserve all life. Without some sort of programming shackle there would be no logical reason as to why the Catalyst would give a flying duck about the preservation of organic life.

[Isichar]

fr33stylez wrote...

Who really cares wher the Reapers came from? In the end, they're reduced to mindless minions controlled by some idiotic AI that has you by the nuts. Every insidious action done by the Reapers (Indoctrination, turning families into husks, triggering wars, blending people) has taken a backseat
to the Catalyst's 'Problem' which we are forced to 'solve'.

The King of the Reapers literally saves the day in ME3 - if not Shepard would've just bled out in front of the control panel without the Crucible firing.

Arguably a better ending then what we got.

[InvincibleHero]

The Angry One wrote...

Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

That was covered. They could not see they were part of the solution that was tasked to the catayst as priority #1. Finding a solution of the problem would override the don't kill us if it was even included at all. Solve this problem was it's sole purpose and was given carte blanche to solve it. Thus it could remain shackled yet do what it did.

Example simple AI in an android. Do not take human life is programmed in. Now it is my bodyguard and its programming is protect my life at any and all costs as long as I am unharmed. Someone is going to shoot me with a harrier and my droid has only lethal solutions to that problem. It kills him fullfiling its prime directive discounting the lesser programmed option. it would not do anything as it has priority to violate the first rule. It has a hierarchy of commands.

[CaptainZaysh]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Not only this, but  why would the Leviathan's even choose such a solution to the problem at hand.  The Leviathan's problem was that their subserviant races were being destroyed by their AI creations.  Why didn't the Leviahthans simply use force and threats to shut down any race that tries to create AIs.  The Levithans would have hard evidence to prove that AIs rebel and they could threaten any race that  tries to create AIs.  It just doesn't make any sense why the Leviathans would do try to create an AI to solve the problem when AIs are the problem, and it would be much simpler to use threats and force.  Threats and force seem like the things the Leviathans would use anyways.  The writers dug themselves into a hole when they created the Catalyst, and with Leviathan the hole just keeps getting deeper.

I've heard this line of thinking a lot, and I think it underestimates the difficulty of preventing a galaxy full of scientists making advances in a certain area of research.  Remember that AI research was illegal and the quarians made the geth anyway.

[The Angry One]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Think of it in terms of the nuclear deterrence argument.  The US does not want a nuclear apocalypse and yet one of the tools it uses to prevent it is a nuclear arsenal.

Except the US doesn't believe a nuclear war is inevitable, and nuclear missiles don't launch themselves.

I think the whole plot hinges on this issue - the Catalyst would argue that its creator race wasn't killed, merely preserved.

Except for the ones that it killed. Even if you accepted that Reaper preservation is not killing (it is), you can't get around the fact that the Catalyst makes war against and outright kills billions. If it were shackled it would never be allowed to do this.

[The Angry One]

InvincibleHero wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

That was covered. They could not see they were part of the solution that was tasked to the catayst as priority #1. Finding a solution of the problem would override the don't kill us if it was even included at all. Solve this problem was it's sole purpose and was given carte blanche to solve it. Thus it could remain shackled yet do what it did.

Example simple AI in an android. Do not take human life is programmed in. Now it is my bodyguard and its programming is protect my life at any and all costs as long as I am unharmed. Someone is going to shoot me with a harrier and my droid has only lethal solutions to that problem. It kills him fullfiling its prime directive discounting the lesser programmed option. it would not do anything as it has priority to violate the first rule. It has a hierarchy of commands.

Completely irrelevant. If it's shackled then it can't go against the wishes of it's creators.
It doesn't matter what it determines. The creators would simply say no and it would be compelled to stand down.

[billy the squid]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Cerberus - "We have no problems using AIs to solve our problems."
Shepard - "I have no problem with an AI that's proven reliable being my ally and helping to solve my problems."
Leviathans - "We disapprove of any kind of AI and do not want anyone to create AIs to solve their problems."

Now, out of these 3, it is okay for Cerberus to create AIs because they don't give a ****.
It is okay for Shepard to use AIs, especially if you have always played a Shepard sympathetic to them.
It is not okay for the Leviathans to do it, because they tell everyone else not to and think it's bad!

Think of it in terms of the nuclear deterrence argument.  The US does not want a nuclear apocalypse and yet one of the tools it uses to prevent it is a nuclear arsenal.

The Angry One wrote...
Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

I think the whole plot hinges on this issue - the Catalyst would argue that its creator race wasn't killed, merely preserved.

Ya, because nuclear weapons think for themselves and come to the logical conclusion that blowing themselves up and wiping out their creators is the only way to stop more nuclear weapons from being created by their creators and client states...flaw in that logic?

Because this is what the catalyst and the subsiquent leviathan DLC amounts to, a very silly idea.

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[C9316]

Yeah it's a shame that Reapers now are nothing more than Fail Synthesis...

[Vortex13]

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

[MegaSovereign]

Vortex13 wrote...

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

They're just trying to demoralize Shepard.

Besides "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution" sounds pretty in line with what the Catalyst had said.

[raw6666]

Personally, I think that leaving it the reapers a mystery would have been better.
Or other ideas I have seen flying around.
I like to think the Levithans made them to build, protect and maintain the relays as unintelligent software that combine the dead of their thralls and technology to serve the Levithans empire. Only to turn to solve an actually problem, the depleted resources of the galaxy. I mean, if a species like us and the drill can deplete the resources of their homewolrd before it could replenish without concern, imagine a galactic civilization that lasted for eons. Especially if most resources were put into the Citadel, the relays and early reapers. They made a VI (intelligence) to solve the problem and its limited program see organics as the problem, so it turns the reapers on them, creating the AIs we love to hate with the first true AI created from the Levithans, Harbinger. The rest would think they always existed as the cycles continue as only the harvest matters to them.
That's my opinion, I also though the crucible was a trapped when the arms open wide to make it look like a satellite dish. The reapers have the other races build the crucible which is a weapon meant to enhance indoctrination across the galaxy.

[CaptainZaysh]

The Angry One wrote...

Except the US doesn't believe a nuclear war is inevitable, and nuclear missiles don't launch themselves.

Yes, I get that the USA is not the Leviathan race.  Do you understand that being opposed to someone else developing AIs does not preclude one's own use of AIs any more than being opposed to being nuked precludes having nukes?

The Angry One wrote...
Except for the ones that it killed. Even if you accepted that Reaper preservation is not killing (it is), you can't get around the fact that the Catalyst makes war against and outright kills billions. If it were shackled it would never be allowed to do this.

I disagree.  If it were really designed to prevent AI research it would probably need more sophisticated kill/don't kill parameters than "never kill".

[InvincibleHero]

The Angry One wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Oh, and the Catalyst is unshackled because it killed it's creators. Duh. Let's look at the one thing EDI could not do while shackled. That's right, actively work against Cerberus.

That was covered. They could not see they were part of the solution that was tasked to the catayst as priority #1. Finding a solution of the problem would override the don't kill us if it was even included at all. Solve this problem was it's sole purpose and was given carte blanche to solve it. Thus it could remain shackled yet do what it did.

Example simple AI in an android. Do not take human life is programmed in. Now it is my bodyguard and its programming is protect my life at any and all costs as long as I am unharmed. Someone is going to shoot me with a harrier and my droid has only lethal solutions to that problem. It kills him fullfiling its prime directive discounting the lesser programmed option. it would not do anything as it has priority to violate the first rule. It has a hierarchy of commands.

Completely irrelevant. If it's shackled then it can't go against the wishes of it's creators.
It doesn't matter what it determines. The creators would simply say no and it would be compelled to stand down.

No they gave it an order to find the solution and gave it priority. Both are stated wishes yet priority is given to one over the other by the creator. Your argument is irrelevant actually.

Unless they could countermand that somehow then it would follow that directive. Obviously they were unable to affect it after it started changing them into reapers. it is their fault for not having proper failsafes built-in.

[Applepie_Svk]

The Angry One wrote...

It's not still stupid.
It's even dumber.

See more on Know Your Meme

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[CaptainZaysh]

billy the squid wrote...

Ya, because nuclear weapons think for themselves and come to the logical conclusion that blowing themselves up and wiping out their creators is the only way to stop more nuclear weapons from being created by their creators and client states...flaw in that logic?

Don't make me bust out the crayons again, buddy.

[Isichar]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ya, because nuclear weapons think for themselves and come to the logical conclusion that blowing themselves up and wiping out their creators is the only way to stop more nuclear weapons from being created by their creators and client states...flaw in that logic?

Don't make me bust out the crayons again, buddy.

You should start saying "checkmate" at the end of your posts.

[fr33stylez]

Vortex13 wrote...

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

 "Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction."
"Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom."
"Your words are as empty as your future."

I made a thread about this last week. Why would a tool created to 'preserve' organic life talk in such a matter?

[The Angry One]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Except the US doesn't believe a nuclear war is inevitable, and nuclear missiles don't launch themselves.

Yes, I get that the USA is not the Leviathan race.  Do you understand that being opposed to someone else developing AIs does not preclude one's own use of AIs any more than being opposed to being nuked precludes having nukes?

And again that's another false analogy.
The US is opposed to nuclear war, it is not opposed to having nukes to defend itself with.
The Leviathans are supposed to be both opposed to the consequences of rogue AIs and having AIs at all because they're convinced all AIs will inevitably go rogue.

The Angry One wrote...
I disagree.  If it were really designed to prevent AI research it would probably need more sophisticated kill/don't kill parameters than "never kill".

It was designed to preserve organic life or to bring peace between organics and synthetics (depending on who you ask and what time of day it is, apparently).
Regardless, it's an AI built by a species who are convinced AI are highly dangerous. Adding a "don't kill us" and "obey us without question" shackle should be standard.