319 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ya, because nuclear weapons think for themselves and come to the logical conclusion that blowing themselves up and wiping out their creators is the only way to stop more nuclear weapons from being created by their creators and client states...flaw in that logic?

Don't make me bust out the crayons again, buddy.

Don't leave gapping holes in your logic. Or did the leviathans miss the whole point that they are organic life so creating AIs to harvest organic life every 50,000 couldn't possibly go wrong. Can I borrow your crayons to join the dots for you buddy.

Edit: Oh yes and your analogy doesn't even come close to being similar, so no gold stars for you until you get it right.

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[raw6666]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

They're just trying to demoralize Shepard.

Besides "we impose order on the chaos of organic evolution" sounds pretty in line with what the Catalyst had said.

My main problem with Soverign's speach is why only wipe out advance space farring species. Why not hit them young or ensure no planet can support life. That would solve the organic problem a lot longer. It made more sense with Mass Effect 2 as they want the organics to be a maxium population to make more of them, while not being to advance they couldn't deal with them.
I think Mass Effect 3 rush ending was something they could only put together at the last minute, probably on deadline.

[InvincibleHero]

Vortex13 wrote...

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

The poor writing would actually be in ME. (Don't get me wrong it sounded very cool.) They give arrogance and ego to machines which is a facet of personality. Failure of discorporating the author from material. A machine would not act like a human.
 
Sovereign's organics would not be arguing organics are a genetic mistake and worthless. However, the blending of synth and organic can be seen as an advancement to a higher life form.

Yeah maybe the vision was they were machine supremacists that just wanted to extinguish organic life originally. Yawn that has been done to death. They came up with a slightly original twist to the idea. A flawed solution to preserving life in a way abhorrent to organics.

[I am Sovereign]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ya, because nuclear weapons think for themselves and come to the logical conclusion that blowing themselves up and wiping out their creators is the only way to stop more nuclear weapons from being created by their creators and client states...flaw in that logic?

Don't make me bust out the crayons again, buddy.

Leviathans didn't like their thralls making synthetics because they rebelled, Leviathans make AI to fix the problem, AI turns on Leviathans. Leviathans = stupid hypocrites.

[elitehunter34]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

Not only this, but  why would the Leviathan's even choose such a solution to the problem at hand.  The Leviathan's problem was that their subserviant races were being destroyed by their AI creations.  Why didn't the Leviahthans simply use force and threats to shut down any race that tries to create AIs.  The Levithans would have hard evidence to prove that AIs rebel and they could threaten any race that  tries to create AIs.  It just doesn't make any sense why the Leviathans would do try to create an AI to solve the problem when AIs are the problem, and it would be much simpler to use threats and force.  Threats and force seem like the things the Leviathans would use anyways.  The writers dug themselves into a hole when they created the Catalyst, and with Leviathan the hole just keeps getting deeper.

I've heard this line of thinking a lot, and I think it underestimates the difficulty of preventing a galaxy full of scientists making advances in a certain area of research.  Remember that AI research was illegal and the quarians made the geth anyway.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but the Leviathans were the most powerful, technologically advanced civilization and they had limited mind control.  It is well within their power.  It just doesn't make any sense to me why they would create an AI to solve the problem, and give the AI unlimited power in doing so.  It is deliberately making the most advanced and powerful race complete idiots.  Bioware seems to be doing that a lot as of Mass Effect 3 (Crucible scientists not even knowing what the Crucible does for example).  The Leviathans could easily stop any race that creates AIs.  Sure, they wouldn't be able to stop all problems instantly, but as soon as the problem gets big, they can crack down on it.

[DeathScepter]

Less space logic more Cthulu

[raw6666]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Apart from the sheer stupidity of including the Catalyst's, "We're actually the misunderstood good guys." line I have been confused as to how Soverign and Harbinger talked to you in the previous games.

I mean ME3 says that the Reapers are just mindless drones following the commands of an AI program. Then why would Soverign say "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident."? You would think an AI running on "cold", machine logic would be upfront with why it's doing what it's doing.

Why the theatrics? Why say that organic life is useless and beneath your notice if the entire point of your existence is to "preserve life"?

To me this obvious contradiction is evidence that the ending was rushed and doesn't belong in the Mass Effect universe. Because how can the story show Soverign and Harbinger disdainful of organic life if the were only the mindless drones of the Catalyst?

And if you say "Well that's just the individual Reaper's personality but the Catalyst ultimatitly controls them." Then I would say why would you ever want to synthesize Harbinger and Co.? If that is their base personality I really wouldn't want them running around the Galaxy post synthesis.

The poor writing would actually be in ME. (Don't get me wrong it sounded very cool.) They give arrogance and ego to machines which is a facet of personality. Failure of discorporating the author from material. A machine would not act like a human.
 
Sovereign's organics would not be arguing organics are a genetic mistake and worthless. However, the blending of synth and organic can be seen as an advancement to a higher life form.

Yeah maybe the vision was they were machine supremacists that just wanted to extinguish organic life originally. Yawn that has been done to death. They came up with a slightly original twist to the idea. A flawed solution to preserving life in a way abhorrent to organics.

Organics were not the only to be wipped out, rembemr Saren painly stated that the reapers considered the Geth expendible tools, to be used and thrown away. Then their are the keeprs, reperpouse like the Protheans. It sound more like Soverign was less likly speaking truth, but instead bosting and comencing phycological warfare, (they are know to use it in indoctrination, using our own dead and the banshees). So we probably shouldn't take everything Soverign said at face value. We should probably pick apart Harbingers more since he is older and more likly reveal little things in what it says, or refuse to talk about .

Modifié par raw6666, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Whole origin of origin is stupid :D:D:D look for the source...

Writers - artists´ve created great franchise of Mass Effect, but in the third installment - exactly last 10 minutes they´ve changed theme into organics which create synthetic which created another bunch of synthetics for killing of own creators and lesser organics which could create own synthetics which would rebelled against own creators, yet the original creators of of whole that mess are hiding in the DLC for 10$ on the deep of seac looking on all lesser spieces laughing eons over own stupidity which cause all that mess...

[D24O]

I bet that this whole f***ing problem comes down to them forgetting a semicolon somewhere.

[CaptainZaysh]

The Angry One wrote...

The US is opposed to nuclear war, it is not opposed to having nukes to defend itself with.
The Leviathans are supposed to be both opposed to the consequences of rogue AIs and having AIs at all because they're convinced all AIs will inevitably go rogue.

When does it say that?  I just watched part of the dialogue again and its specific objection wasn't so much the existence of rogue AIs but that they were wiping out their client races.  I didn't hear it say anything about being opposed to using AI itself.

Youtube

The Angry One wrote...
Regardless, it's an AI built by a species who are convinced AI are highly dangerous. Adding a "don't kill us" and "obey us without question" shackle should be standard.

AIs outwitting their masters is quite a common theme in Sci Fi (2001, Terminator, The Matrix, etc).  Do you object to it in all of these stories or just Mass Effect?

[CaptainZaysh]

D24O wrote...

I bet that this whole f***ing problem comes down to them forgetting a semicolon somewhere.

Heh, yes, exactly!  I found the idea that this entire horrifying cycle of devastation could be traced back to a billennia-old programming error to be bitterly ironic.

[billy the squid]

D24O wrote...

I bet that this whole f***ing problem comes down to them forgetting a semicolon somewhere.

Haha Leviathans. We are a God like species attaining the highest form of evolution, ruling the galaxy according to our whims and seen as Gods by lesser species. But we suck at coding.

[CaptainZaysh]

elitehunter34 wrote...

I'm not saying it would be easy, but the Leviathans were the most powerful, technologically advanced civilization and they had limited mind control.  It is well within their power.  

I'm not sure it is: preventing scientific progress doesn't seem possible to me indefinitely.  Even with all that power, how long could you really keep a galaxy full of people from, say, splitting the atom?  (Especially if you actually wanted them to progress and advance in other areas in order to become better servants.)

[Isichar]

@Zaysh

The AI's in the matrix and the AI's in the terminator were not built with the assumption that AI's would be wiping out organics. The Catalyst was built because of that exact reason.

[CaptainZaysh]

Isichar wrote...

The AI's in the matrix and the AI's in the terminator were not built with the assumption that AI's would be wiping out organics. The Catalyst was built because of that exact reason.

And, as I've demonstrated to you in crayon no less, there are sound reasons to employ an AI to defeat synthetics.  You yourself did it in Mass Effects 2 & 3.  

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[NM_Che56]

I didn't read anything in here, but did anyone mention the tasty irony of this topic being started by someone going by "I Am Sovereign"?

[Isichar]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

The AI's in the matrix and the AI's in the terminator were not built with the assumption that AI's would be wiping out organics. The Catalyst was built because of that exact reason.

And, as I've demonstrated to you in crayon no less, there are sound reasons to employ an AI to defeat synthetics.

Didn't look like that was done by a crayon to me. And childish logic drawn into a childish picture is not very convincing, sorry.

[Enhanced]

Nyoka wrote...

It's even worse because the Leviathan hasn't even realized they did it wrong.

"Tribute doesn't come from a dead race."
"We pay the price of your mistake."
"There was no mistake."
"ORLY? THEN WHERE'S ALL THE TRIBUTE???"
"N-Nooo."
"******."

Technically, the Reapers did perserve organic life.  So, in that sense, they are not a mistake.

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[elitehunter34]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...

I'm not saying it would be easy, but the Leviathans were the most powerful, technologically advanced civilization and they had limited mind control.  It is well within their power.  

I'm not sure it is: preventing scientific progress doesn't seem possible to me indefinitely.  Even with all that power, how long could you really keep a galaxy full of people from, say, splitting the atom?  (Especially if you actually wanted them to progress and advance in other areas in order to become better servants.)

That's the thing though, the Leviathans don't care about synthetics being made, what they would care about is if they start becoming an actual threat.  The Leviathans don't need to constantly watch every person to do this.  They only need to act when the threat becomes severe.  The Leviathans can even prevent this from happening by telling the subserviant races that synthetics aren't to be trusted and the Leviathans won't bail the organic races out if something goes wrong.  Clearly the Leviathans were able to shut down every synthetic rebellion because the Leviathans weren't extermenated by them.  

[Apocaleepse360]

I know it is stupid. Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it now. Artistic integrity destroyed the Mass Effect story, and its ability to make sense.

[SpamBot2000]

'Stupid'? No, it's just... contemptuous of logic and everyone invested in any way in the Mass Effect series.

Sure, it might seem like telling yourself it's so brilliant would hurt less. But the price is heavy duty cognitive dissonance. I think that's why many of these pro-enders are so irritable.