319 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

Isichar wrote...

And yet you have me laughing and having a good time. Funny how that works.

I guess it's true what they say about bliss.

[elitehunter34]

dreman9999 wrote...
:lol:.......Horse crap. What happen in the plot is the central theme. In correction, it mosly organic/synthetic relations then organic vs synthetic. The catalyst never stated on was better then the other. It wants to "help" both. The other theme of ME is the issue and morality of advancement. 

Uh...I really shouldn't have to explain this.  If in a plot its about a character trying to stop an alien invasion does that make the theme trying to stop an alien invasion?  Plot events and theme are different.  Shouldn't you have learned this in high school?

Anyways, I'm not denying that organics v. synthetics has been a theme of the series.  I think it is quite a clear theme.  I was just saying that the events of a plot are not the same thing as a theme.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:22 .

[CaptainZaysh]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Uh...I really shouldn't have to explain this.  If in a plot its about a character trying to stop an alien invasion does that make the theme trying to stop an alien invasion?  Plot events and theme are different.  Shouldn't you have learned this in high school?

I don't want to weigh in on one side or the other here but I would point out that words like "plot" and "theme" carry more than one definition even among professional writers.  Some say that theme is mood, others message, others a premise set out by the author, others perspective.  Etc

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Didn't look like that was done by a crayon to me. And childish logic drawn into a childish picture is not very convincing, sorry.

Oh!  So please explain to me the error in my logic.

1).  The OP's premise is that it is stupid to employ an AI to defeat synthetics.
2).  EDI is an AI.
3).  The Reapers are synthetics.
4).  EDI is instrumental in defeating the Reapers.
5).  Therefore the OP's premise is false.

I'd really appreciate hearing this from Isichar himself before any other posters here weigh in.

The reapers are not "employed" for one. They do not exist to "defeat synthetics" as you seem to want to suggest. The reapers are not just "synthetics". And if EDI and the Catalyst both been "AI's" is as far as the similaritys between them go then you wont be able to convince many people with just that.

Theonlyreason they were made was because the leviathans slave kept getting killed by their synthetics.
It was made to control and ensure the lives of the leviathans slaves.

It was employed to solve asynthetic crisis. And the reapers are synthetic. They are synthetics made out of organic parts. A machine is still a machine if it's made out of bones.

And he right on the point of EDI. We are using her to help stop the reapers.
The difference is that EDI is not a slave. She is doing this of her own will. The catalist was not when he first started solving the problem and still is not free. It's a slave to it's programing.

So EDI choosing to fight the reapers is the same as an AI that was created to stop AI's from killing organics? I will say it again: Its not the same. Not even remotely similar.

[CaptainZaysh]

elitehunter34 wrote...

That does make some sense.  Still though, the Leviathans could have helped out and fight the synthetics, and then just tell the races that synthetics are a bad idea.  

People don't always obey their leaders, though.

elitehunter34 wrote...
My main problem is really, why couldn't the Leviathans simply create an AI and only feed it data?  Considering that rebellious synthetics are the problem, why would they give an AI infinite power.  It's just so damn dumb.

There's a balance you need to strike.  Not enough power and your agent is useless, too much power and it's a threat.  Clearly the Leviathans miscalculated, but I can easily understand how that could happen.

[fr33stylez]

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

The reapers are not "employed" for one. They do not exist to "defeat synthetics" as you seem to want to suggest. The reapers are not just "synthetics". And if EDI and the Catalyst both been "AI's" is as far as the similaritys between them go then you wont be able to convince many people with just that.

ARGH!  Can't you f**king read?

U mad bro?

Look up.

Do you still believe in IT? Just curious.

[Isichar]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

And yet you have me laughing and having a good time. Funny how that works.

I guess it's true what they say about bliss.

And you know what they say about people raging on internet forums.

[dreman9999]

elitehunter34 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
:lol:.......Horse crap. What happen in the plot is the central theme. In correction, it mosly organic/synthetic relations then organic vs synthetic. The catalyst never stated on was better then the other. It wants to "help" both. The other theme of ME is the issue and morality of advancement. 

Uh...I really shouldn't have to explain this.  If in a plot its about a character trying to stop an alien invasion does that make the theme trying to stop an alien invasion?  Plot evens and theme are different.  Shouldn't you have learned this in high school?

Anyways, I'm not denying that organics v. synthetics has been a theme of the series.  I think it is quite a clear theme.  I was just saying that the events of a plot are not the same thing as a theme.

You missed my point. In lace  in to the plot is the theme. The plot does have the theme of the story in it. Plot and theme are intradependent. The events of the story(plot) tell what the theme is. The synopsis of the story just tells the story.
Enders game's plot has the theme of the inner cruelty of man and how they us it to servive.

Dune's plot hasthe theme of the doom of a known furture and quetions  the isolation of  personal advancement to get to a goal.

And ME's plot has theme of organic synthetic relations and the morality of advancement.

The events of the story tell the theme...the events of the story by defination is the plot.

http://en.wikipedia....lot_(narrative) 

The means the plot tells what the theme is.

If the plot is about us fighting a race of synthetics who want to force everyone to advance by changing their form into a new life form and they are only doing this because of the way they were programed ...tThat would mean...

Modifié par dreman9999, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Isichar wrote...

So EDI choosing to fight the reapers is the same as an AI that was created to stop AI's from killing organics? I will say it again: Its not the same. Not even remotely similar.

I am going to try one more time.

You are spectacularly missing the point.  Nobody gives a f**k whether EDI chose to fight Reapers.  It's utterly irrelevant.

The following are indisputable facts:

1).  EDI fights synthetics.
2).  EDI is really, really good at it.

These facts form the basis of my premise: there are reasons to employ an AI against a synthetic threat.

Do you understand and agree so far?

[dreman9999]

fr33stylez wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

The reapers are not "employed" for one. They do not exist to "defeat synthetics" as you seem to want to suggest. The reapers are not just "synthetics". And if EDI and the Catalyst both been "AI's" is as far as the similaritys between them go then you wont be able to convince many people with just that.

ARGH!  Can't you f**king read?

U mad bro?

Look up.

Do you still believe in IT? Just curious.

Not as a dream. IT can happen if everything is really going on.

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Didn't look like that was done by a crayon to me. And childish logic drawn into a childish picture is not very convincing, sorry.

Oh!  So please explain to me the error in my logic.

1).  The OP's premise is that it is stupid to employ an AI to defeat synthetics.
2).  EDI is an AI.
3).  The Reapers are synthetics.
4).  EDI is instrumental in defeating the Reapers.
5).  Therefore the OP's premise is false.

I'd really appreciate hearing this from Isichar himself before any other posters here weigh in.

The reapers are not "employed" for one. They do not exist to "defeat synthetics" as you seem to want to suggest. The reapers are not just "synthetics". And if EDI and the Catalyst both been "AI's" is as far as the similaritys between them go then you wont be able to convince many people with just that.

Theonlyreason they were made was because the leviathans slave kept getting killed by their synthetics.
It was made to control and ensure the lives of the leviathans slaves.

It was employed to solve asynthetic crisis. And the reapers are synthetic. They are synthetics made out of organic parts. A machine is still a machine if it's made out of bones.

And he right on the point of EDI. We are using her to help stop the reapers.
The difference is that EDI is not a slave. She is doing this of her own will. The catalist was not when he first started solving the problem and still is not free. It's a slave to it's programing.

So EDI choosing to fight the reapers is the same as an AI that was created to stop AI's from killing organics? I will say it again: Its not the same. Not even remotely similar.

The fact that she was made to do so and is doing it makes it the same case. The only difference is now she is not a slave.

[Isichar]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

So EDI choosing to fight the reapers is the same as an AI that was created to stop AI's from killing organics? I will say it again: Its not the same. Not even remotely similar.

I am going to try one more time.

You are spectacularly missing the point.  Nobody gives a f**k whether EDI chose to fight Reapers.  It's utterly irrelevant.

The following are indisputable facts:

1).  EDI fights synthetics.
2).  EDI is really, really good at it.

These facts form the basis of my premise: there are reasons to employ an AI against a synthetic threat.

Do you understand and agree so far?

If I say yes will you stop raging?

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that she was made to do so and is doing it makes it the same case. The only difference is now she is not a slave.

She was not made to fight synthetics, and for that matter neither was the Catalyst. There lies the problem.

Modifié par Isichar, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[elitehunter34]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
People don't always obey their leaders, though.

Yeah, and that brings me back to my previous point about how the Leviathans can simply destroy the synthetics when the races don't obey.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
There's a balance you need to strike.  Not enough power and your agent is useless, too much power and it's a threat.  Clearly the Leviathans miscalculated, but I can easily understand how that could happen.

But it didn't need power.  All it needed was data and processing ability.  It was trying to solve a problem.  There was no need for it to go fetch the data itself.  The Leviathans could've done that for it.  The whole reason the Catalyst was able to overthrow the Leviathans was because it had an army of pawns.  An army of pawns that had no reason to exist.

[CaptainZaysh]

Isichar wrote...

If I say yes will you stop raging?

I'm actually asking seriously.  I'm not sure which bit I didn't explain properly.  Are you on board so far?

[CaptainZaysh]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Yeah, and that brings me back to my previous point about how the Leviathans can simply destroy the synthetics when the races don't obey.

But not in time to save the thralls, which is what they were unhappy about.  It's obviously a botched solution, that's the whole point.

elitehunter34 wrote...
But it didn't need power.  All it needed was data and processing ability.  It was trying to solve a problem.  There was no need for it to go fetch the data itself.  The Leviathans could've done that for it.  The whole reason the Catalyst was able to overthrow the Leviathans was because it had an army of pawns.  An army of pawns that had no reason to exist.

I got the impression it exerted itself through the pawns.  Presumably part of its job would have been to maintain scientific espionage on the thrall races, which the Leviathans can't carry out themselves (because they're enormous aquatic monsters), so it seems to me it was allowed to make use of pawns to carry out its mission.

[Isichar]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

If I say yes will you stop raging?

I'm actually asking seriously.  I'm not sure which bit I didn't explain properly.  Are you on board so far?

Catalyst=AI=EDI=Good at fighting synthetics. Therefore the catalyst makes sense for trying to stop synthetics from killing organics.

Is that about right?

[CaptainZaysh]

Isichar wrote...

Catalyst=AI=EDI=Good at fighting synthetics. Therefore the catalyst makes sense for trying to stop synthetics from killing organics.

Is that about right?

You brought a smile to an old man's face.

[elitehunter34]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
But not in time to save the thralls, which is what they were unhappy about.  It's obviously a botched solution, that's the whole point.

It's difficult to exterminate an entire race.  It took the Reapers 400 years to exterminate the Protheans, and they still didn't fully get the job done.  I think the Leviathans could stop the synthetics before utter extermination of the entire species.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
I got the impression it exerted itself through the pawns.  Presumably part of its job would have been to maintain scientific espionage on the thrall races, which the Leviathans can't carry out themselves (because they're enormous aquatic monsters), so it seems to me it was allowed to make use of pawns to carry out its mission.

Why couldn't the Leviathans make their own pawns and then feed that data to the Catalyst?  There is no need for the Catalyst to directly control them.

Barring all this, isn't it a little strange how the Leviathan said the Catalyst's harvest was sudden?  Considering that the Leviathans are the most powerful race in the galaxy, you would think that they would have noticed something.  I would have been a little suspicious if the Catalyst's data mining pawns had capital ship class weapons.

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that she was made to do so and is doing it makes it the same case. The only difference is now she is not a slave.

She was not made to fight synthetics, and for that matter neither was the Catalyst. There lies the problem.

Yes, she was. She was made to fight the reapers and their indoctrianted slaves. Or more so help us fight them.
The catalyst was made to control the synthetic problem.
That still mean they both had to deal with synthetics.

[I am Sovereign]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

If I say yes will you stop raging?

I'm actually asking seriously.  I'm not sure which bit I didn't explain properly.  Are you on board so far?

Seriously though, your comparison between Starbrat and EDI doesn't work. Accept it and move on with your failed logic.

[shodiswe]

It actualy makes sense that someone just as arrogant and evil as the Reapers created them.. They perfectly mirror their creators arrogance..

[CaptainZaysh]

I am Sovereign wrote...

I know, I'm ridiculous for actually letting this press my buttons.

I am Sovereign wrote...
Seriously though, your comparison between Starbrat and EDI doesn't work. Accept it and move on with your failed logic.

Saying it's so doesn't make it so.  In order to convince anyone you'd need to demonstrate the error in my logic:

1).  The OP's premise is that it is stupid to employ an AI to defeat synthetics.
2).  EDI is an AI.
3).  The Reapers are synthetics.
4).  EDI is instrumental in defeating the Reapers.
5).  Therefore the OP's premise is false.

[dreman9999]

elitehunter34 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...
But not in time to save the thralls, which is what they were unhappy about.  It's obviously a botched solution, that's the whole point.

It's difficult to exterminate an entire race.  It took the Reapers 400 years to exterminate the Protheans, and they still didn't fully get the job done.  I think the Leviathans could stop the synthetics before utter extermination of the entire species.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
I got the impression it exerted itself through the pawns.  Presumably part of its job would have been to maintain scientific espionage on the thrall races, which the Leviathans can't carry out themselves (because they're enormous aquatic monsters), so it seems to me it was allowed to make use of pawns to carry out its mission.

Why couldn't the Leviathans make their own pawns and then feed that data to the Catalyst?  There is no need for the Catalyst to directly control them.

Barring all this, isn't it a little strange how the Leviathan said the Catalyst's harvest was sudden?  Considering that the Leviathans are the most powerful race in the galaxy, you would think that they would have noticed something.  I would have been a little suspicious if the Catalyst's data mining pawns had capital ship class weapons.

1.The catalyst knowsevery strenght andweakness ofthe leviathans and attacked in a surprise attack. The advantages gois to the catalyst on this.

2.The leviathan are arragant. They let the catalyst gain power because they though they could control it. Added, it's not like the catalyst does not know about the leviathans power.

[dreman9999]

I am Sovereign wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Isichar wrote...

If I say yes will you stop raging?

I'm actually asking seriously.  I'm not sure which bit I didn't explain properly.  Are you on board so far?

Seriously though, your comparison between Starbrat and EDI doesn't work. Accept it and move on with your failed logic.

How does it not?
The levianthan created an AI to deal with their synthetic problem.
Edi was made to help deal with our reaper problem...
How does comparisonm not make sense?