319 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I am Sovereign wrote...

So the Leviathans make an AI to solve the synhetic life vs organic life problem? That's like hiring an axe murderer to be the judge in a murder trial. Now instead of the Reapers being mysterious nightmares from darker eons, they are inept products of a faulty AI's stupid plan.

The better analogy would be hiring a hacker to guard against hackers.

Which is actually pretty standard.

If only Drew Karpyshyn was still the lead writer...

You realize he didn't write a better motivation when he had the chance?

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

D24O wrote...

I hate to interject on something that probably isn't the current topic, but IMO organics VS synthetics is a poor description of hat goes on in the plot it. Organic-synthetic relations is more appropriate to me, since they're accually capable of working together, coexisting and understanding each other.

Think koobismo said it best about how story elements got:

"suddenly dropped and replaced by a twisted version of ME1's "organics vs. synthetics", no longer valid in this universe due to the events and ideas shared with the players in ME2 and ME3 - the concept evolved during the series, changed, progressed and, at the crucial moment, was slammed back to its original, embryo state."

No it was not. The fact the many people see that it's ethicly wrong to choose destory proves you wrong.
Oganic/synthetic relation had conflict in it like any relationship. There is no relation ship that never went through conflict.
It has not gone back to organic vs synthetic, it went tothe poitn of morality vs logic. What you have to do and what you morality says to do or not to do.
The diffeance here is that the being that we are in conflict with is can't be compromised with because it's shakled to it's programing.

Conflicts yes but also resoutions that didn't end in extinction. We're making decisions based on the assumption that these, from the catalysts perspective, conflicts have no way of being resolved peacefully. This being a false assumption doesn't change the fact the every single soultion, aside form Refuse, somehow address the synthetic organic conflict. Join with the Reapers and use them to maintian peace, kill all synthetics, synthesis.

[AresKeith]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I am Sovereign wrote...

If only Drew Karpyshyn was still the lead writer...

You realize he didn't write a better motivation when he had the chance?

and you do realize that was an outline right?

[dreman9999]

N7Gold wrote...

I think the Leviathans are LYING about the purpose of the Reapers. I think the Leviathans are using the Reapers to "harvest" lesser races so that lesser organics won't evolve to become the Leviathans's equals. The Leviathans have proven themselves to be very protective about their status as the only apex organic race.

"We weill fight, but not for you, or any nother race. We were first the apex race."

As for the Catalyst, the Leviathans are more crafty than they care to tell you, they probably fooled the Catalyst into believing its harvesting organics to prevent the conflict of organics vs synthetics, when it's probably helping the Leviathans maintain their status as the only fully evolved organic race, suppressing the evolutionary growth of "lesser species". The organic vs synthetic conflict is nothing more than a convenient cover story to justify "harvesting" lesser races.

Oh come on. That is crazy. They live hiding in some hole on some remote planet and you think they are trying harvenst lesser races?

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I could drop a nuke onto a bomb and claim that it stopped the bomb from been a problem with the Catalysts logic.

Your problem is that you see what the catalyst is doing is killing while what the catalyst sees what it's doing is perserving.

No my problem is the catalyst is creating a bigger problem to solve a lesser one.

No, the catalyst is using conflict to solve it's problem. It's stuck in pure logic.

Logic? is that what that is?

What you call logic I call bad programming.

Modifié par Isichar, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

D24O wrote...

I hate to interject on something that probably isn't the current topic, but IMO organics VS synthetics is a poor description of hat goes on in the plot it. Organic-synthetic relations is more appropriate to me, since they're accually capable of working together, coexisting and understanding each other.

Think koobismo said it best about how story elements got:

"suddenly dropped and replaced by a twisted version of ME1's "organics vs. synthetics", no longer valid in this universe due to the events and ideas shared with the players in ME2 and ME3 - the concept evolved during the series, changed, progressed and, at the crucial moment, was slammed back to its original, embryo state."

No it was not. The fact the many people see that it's ethicly wrong to choose destory proves you wrong.
Oganic/synthetic relation had conflict in it like any relationship. There is no relation ship that never went through conflict.
It has not gone back to organic vs synthetic, it went tothe poitn of morality vs logic. What you have to do and what you morality says to do or not to do.
The diffeance here is that the being that we are in conflict with is can't be compromised with because it's shakled to it's programing.

Conflicts yes but also resoutions that didn't end in extinction. We're making decisions based on the assumption that these, from the catalysts perspective, conflicts have no way of being resolved peacefully. This being a false assumption doesn't change the fact the every single soultion, aside form Refuse, somehow address the synthetic organic conflict. Join with the Reapers and use them to maintian peace, kill all synthetics, synthesis.

No. the only choice that is based on the catalyst perspective is synhtesis. Control and destory are out side of his control.. He tells you this. In fact, the fact that he offers synthesis contridict the idea that this issue can't be fixed outside conflict. Only destory and control are solution that lead to more conflict.

The catalyst states thatthe only solution that garantees no more conflict woth oganics and synthtics is synthesis, how does that mean more conflict?

[D24O]

Oh s***, trying to make sense of synthesis, ABANDON THREAD!

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I could drop a nuke onto a bomb and claim that it stopped the bomb from been a problem with the Catalysts logic.

Your problem is that you see what the catalyst is doing is killing while what the catalyst sees what it's doing is perserving.

No my problem is the catalyst is creating a bigger problem to solve a lesser one.

No, the catalyst is using conflict to solve it's problem. It's stuck in pure logic.

Logic? is that what that is?

What you call logic I call bad programming.

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I am Sovereign wrote...

If only Drew Karpyshyn was still the lead writer...

You realize he didn't write a better motivation when he had the chance?

and you do realize that was an outline right?

What other ideas did he have?

[N7Gold]

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I think the Leviathans are LYING about the purpose of the Reapers. I think the Leviathans are using the Reapers to "harvest" lesser races so that lesser organics won't evolve to become the Leviathans's equals. The Leviathans have proven themselves to be very protective about their status as the only apex organic race.

"We weill fight, but not for you, or any nother race. We were first the apex race."

As for the Catalyst, the Leviathans are more crafty than they care to tell you, they probably fooled the Catalyst into believing its harvesting organics to prevent the conflict of organics vs synthetics, when it's probably helping the Leviathans maintain their status as the only fully evolved organic race, suppressing the evolutionary growth of "lesser species". The organic vs synthetic conflict is nothing more than a convenient cover story to justify "harvesting" lesser races.

Oh come on. That is crazy. They live hiding in some hole on some remote planet and you think they are trying harvenst lesser races?

They're letting the Reapers "harvest" lesser races to keep them from reaching the apex of their evolution like the Leviathans. Have you seen how arrogant the Leviathans are? And you think that's crazy? If they wanted to go back to their golden days of freely enthralling "lesser races" again, before the dawn of the Reapers, they would have assisted Shepard and every other so-called lesser race. Have you ever wondered how the surviving Leviathans escaped from the Reapers? The Reapers can't be THAT fallible! Chances are the Leviathans who created the Catalyst tricked the Catalyst into believing it's purpose is to stop the organic vs synthetic conflict at any cost, then they hid while the Catalyst wiped out 86% of the Leviathan population in order to create Harbinger. The surviving Leviathans and their offspring are the ones who sacrificed most of their entire population in Cerberus's style to uphold their glory as the only apex organic race. Compare them to Illusive Man, who is indoctrinated by the Reapers and adapting to their tactics... The Leviathans's tactics, he's willing to sacrifice most of the human race to "uplift" humanity to the apex of their evolution. The Reapers ideas.. The Leviathans's logic of evolution is a lie.
The word "harvest" is just a pretty word to justify killing millions of advancing organics, just like how the salarians justify how the genophage doesn't kill krogans, it only sterilizes them.

As for the endings, the reason why "synthesis" is the ideal solution is not because it would unite organics and synthetics, it will change the DNA of "lesser organics", permanently changing the course of their evolution compared to the Leviathans, who may have developed countermeasures to avoid ther DNA being altered.

Modifié par N7Gold, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:52 .

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

Modifié par Isichar, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[dreman9999]

N7Gold wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I think the Leviathans are LYING about the purpose of the Reapers. I think the Leviathans are using the Reapers to "harvest" lesser races so that lesser organics won't evolve to become the Leviathans's equals. The Leviathans have proven themselves to be very protective about their status as the only apex organic race.

"We weill fight, but not for you, or any nother race. We were first the apex race."

As for the Catalyst, the Leviathans are more crafty than they care to tell you, they probably fooled the Catalyst into believing its harvesting organics to prevent the conflict of organics vs synthetics, when it's probably helping the Leviathans maintain their status as the only fully evolved organic race, suppressing the evolutionary growth of "lesser species". The organic vs synthetic conflict is nothing more than a convenient cover story to justify "harvesting" lesser races.

Oh come on. That is crazy. They live hiding in some hole on some remote planet and you think they are trying harvenst lesser races?

They're letting the Reapers "harvest" lesser races to keep them from reaching the apex of their evolution like the Leviathans. Have you seen how arrogant the Leviathans are? And you think that's crazy? Have you ever wondered how the surviving Leviathans escaped from the Reapers? The Reapers can't be THAT fallible! Chances are the Leviathans who created the Catalyst tricked the Catalyst into believing it's purpose is to stop the organic vs synthetic conflict at any cost, then they hid while the Catalyst wiped out 86% of the Leviathan population in order to create Harbinger. The surviving Leviathans and their offspring are the ones who sacrificed most of their entire population in Cerberus's style to uphold their glory as the only apex organic race. Compare them to Illusive Man, who is indoctrinated by the Reapers and adapting to their tactics... The Leviathans's tactics, he's willing to sacrifice most of the human race to "uplift" humanity to the apex of their evolution. The Reapers ideas.. The Leviathans's logic of evolution is a lie.

As for the endings, the reason why "synthesis" is the ideal solution is not because it would unite organics and synthetics, it will change the DNA of "lesser organics", permanently changing the course of their evolution compared to the Leviathans, who may have developed countermeasures to avoid ther DNA being altered.

Fix your quotes and No, your wrong. Something that arragant would not be hiding on some remote planet if that was the case.

[Dean_the_Young]

AresKeith wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I am Sovereign wrote...

If only Drew Karpyshyn was still the lead writer...

You realize he didn't write a better motivation when he had the chance?

and you do realize that was an outline right?

He didn't outline it either.

One of the consistent flaws of the ME series has always been a lack of forward planning. They didn't know the role Cerberus would have in ME2 until after ME1, and didn't decide on the origin story and motivations of the Reapers until they worked on ME3.

Drew certainly had the opportunity to do more forward planning. It didn't happen.

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

As I said he only reason why you see it as worse is because your seeing harvesting as killing.

[N7Gold]

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I think the Leviathans are LYING about the purpose of the Reapers. I think the Leviathans are using the Reapers to "harvest" lesser races so that lesser organics won't evolve to become the Leviathans's equals. The Leviathans have proven themselves to be very protective about their status as the only apex organic race.

"We weill fight, but not for you, or any nother race. We were first the apex race."

As for the Catalyst, the Leviathans are more crafty than they care to tell you, they probably fooled the Catalyst into believing its harvesting organics to prevent the conflict of organics vs synthetics, when it's probably helping the Leviathans maintain their status as the only fully evolved organic race, suppressing the evolutionary growth of "lesser species". The organic vs synthetic conflict is nothing more than a convenient cover story to justify "harvesting" lesser races.

Oh come on. That is crazy. They live hiding in some hole on some remote planet and you think they are trying harvenst lesser races?

They're letting the Reapers "harvest" lesser races to keep them from reaching the apex of their evolution like the Leviathans. Have you seen how arrogant the Leviathans are? And you think that's crazy? Have you ever wondered how the surviving Leviathans escaped from the Reapers? The Reapers can't be THAT fallible! Chances are the Leviathans who created the Catalyst tricked the Catalyst into believing it's purpose is to stop the organic vs synthetic conflict at any cost, then they hid while the Catalyst wiped out 86% of the Leviathan population in order to create Harbinger. The surviving Leviathans and their offspring are the ones who sacrificed most of their entire population in Cerberus's style to uphold their glory as the only apex organic race. Compare them to Illusive Man, who is indoctrinated by the Reapers and adapting to their tactics... The Leviathans's tactics, he's willing to sacrifice most of the human race to "uplift" humanity to the apex of their evolution. The Reapers ideas.. The Leviathans's logic of evolution is a lie.

As for the endings, the reason why "synthesis" is the ideal solution is not because it would unite organics and synthetics, it will change the DNA of "lesser organics", permanently changing the course of their evolution compared to the Leviathans, who may have developed countermeasures to avoid ther DNA being altered.

Fix your quotes and No, your wrong. Something that arragant would not be hiding on some remote planet if that was the case.

How do you defend Leviathan telling Shepard that the Catalyst, even though it betrayed its creators, it still follows its purpose?

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

As I said he only reason why you see it as worse is because your seeing harvesting as killing.

It is killing, How does melting someones DNA into goo and sticking it in a reaper somehow negate the killing part?

[Cainne Chapel]

Dean hush! Dont you realize Drew is a god to some of these people!

hey I like DK as much as the next guy, but people i feel give him WAY to much credit. He didnt write ME1 or half of ME2 by himself as far as I know

[Omega2079]

When I ask myself 'what would the Leviathan government do?', making the catalyst/ai sounds about right. It's the same derpy logic that dooms all government programs to failure.

Modifié par Omega2079, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:38 .

[LilLino]

How the hell do you expect an origin story for giant cuttlefish AIs wanting to murder everyone not to be stupid?
Stop being blind, ME storyline has always been goddamn stupid.

Modifié par LilLino, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[dreman9999]

N7Gold wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

I think the Leviathans are LYING about the purpose of the Reapers. I think the Leviathans are using the Reapers to "harvest" lesser races so that lesser organics won't evolve to become the Leviathans's equals. The Leviathans have proven themselves to be very protective about their status as the only apex organic race.

"We weill fight, but not for you, or any nother race. We were first the apex race."

As for the Catalyst, the Leviathans are more crafty than they care to tell you, they probably fooled the Catalyst into believing its harvesting organics to prevent the conflict of organics vs synthetics, when it's probably helping the Leviathans maintain their status as the only fully evolved organic race, suppressing the evolutionary growth of "lesser species". The organic vs synthetic conflict is nothing more than a convenient cover story to justify "harvesting" lesser races.

Oh come on. That is crazy. They live hiding in some hole on some remote planet and you think they are trying harvenst lesser races?

They're letting the Reapers "harvest" lesser races to keep them from reaching the apex of their evolution like the Leviathans. Have you seen how arrogant the Leviathans are? And you think that's crazy? Have you ever wondered how the surviving Leviathans escaped from the Reapers? The Reapers can't be THAT fallible! Chances are the Leviathans who created the Catalyst tricked the Catalyst into believing it's purpose is to stop the organic vs synthetic conflict at any cost, then they hid while the Catalyst wiped out 86% of the Leviathan population in order to create Harbinger. The surviving Leviathans and their offspring are the ones who sacrificed most of their entire population in Cerberus's style to uphold their glory as the only apex organic race. Compare them to Illusive Man, who is indoctrinated by the Reapers and adapting to their tactics... The Leviathans's tactics, he's willing to sacrifice most of the human race to "uplift" humanity to the apex of their evolution. The Reapers ideas.. The Leviathans's logic of evolution is a lie.

As for the endings, the reason why "synthesis" is the ideal solution is not because it would unite organics and synthetics, it will change the DNA of "lesser organics", permanently changing the course of their evolution compared to the Leviathans, who may have developed countermeasures to avoid ther DNA being altered.

Fix your quotes and No, your wrong. Something that arragant would not be hiding on some remote planet if that was the case.

How do you defend Leviathan telling Shepard that the Catalyst, even though it betrayed its creators, it still follows its purpose?

Becaue it still is fallowing it perpose. That does not mean the leviathans are controling the catalyst.


A cars  perpose is to transport by moving forward, if a car isout of control, is it still doing it's perpose?

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Becaue it still is fallowing it perpose. That does not mean the leviathans are controling the catalyst.


A cars  perpose is to transport by moving forward, if a car isout of control, is it still doing it's perpose?

Not very well.

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

As I said he only reason why you see it as worse is because your seeing harvesting as killing.

It is killing, How does melting someones DNA into goo and sticking it in a reaper somehow negate the killing part?

Because it doesn't see it as killing, it seeing it and a change of form of life and it save the organics mind that it harvest.

[Cainne Chapel]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

As I said he only reason why you see it as worse is because your seeing harvesting as killing.

It is killing, How does melting someones DNA into goo and sticking it in a reaper somehow negate the killing part?

They may not consider our "consciousness" as part of their equation in "preserving" us.

[dreman9999]

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Becaue it still is fallowing it perpose. That does not mean the leviathans are controling the catalyst.


A cars  perpose is to transport by moving forward, if a car isout of control, is it still doing it's perpose?

Not very well.

To you it's not very well, but to it all it matter is that it's doing it. Understand that programing is just a form of translation for machines.. Machines do what is programed into it, not what we say. If the translation is in error, it with fallow that translation becasue thats the only way it gets commands. A machine is a slave to it's programing and anyone that writes it's programing, not to the people who interface with it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[dreman9999]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's called solving a problem by any means nessary. That is a concentraion on the goal only and disrgarding what happens to everything else.

Think telling a robot to go to point A in the world and it just walks in  a straight line destroing everything in it's path.

It values nothing else but getting to the goal. 

Yes and in trying to stop that goal (which it failed at miserably) it created a bigger problem

As I already said, what the catalyst did was like trying to stop a bomb from going off with a nuke.

Again this can all be blamed on bad programming and/or writing depending on how you view it.

As I said he only reason why you see it as worse is because your seeing harvesting as killing.

It is killing, How does melting someones DNA into goo and sticking it in a reaper somehow negate the killing part?

They may not consider our "consciousness" as part of their equation in "preserving" us.

But it does perserve our minds by uploading them into a reaper.