10 réponses à ce sujet

[gandanlin]

Can Zathrian return from the dead?
 
First off, it may be useful to recall some of what is known about the Fade and the crossing of the Veil.
 
A codex entry attributed to a mage by the name of Mareno tells us that crossing the Veil is more about a perceptual shift than a physical transition. This is an important clue to how it is that mortal beings are able to cross the Veil and enter the Fade.  Demons, too, can pull the living across the Veil while they sleep. Sleep results in the necessary perceptual changes for this to occur, and it is the psyche that the demons prey upon. The physical body itself remains on the other side of the Veil, though it may decay or deteriorate while the psyche is possessed. So it is that the poisoned body of Arl Eamon has a shape and form both in the Fade and in the Redcliffe Castle. So it is that Niall’s body lies on the floor of an upper level of the Circle Tower, while at the same time Niall’s psyche has been pulled into the Fade and provides the food for the Sloth Demon to exert influence over the thoughts of those who enter into his domain.
 
The demons, shades, wisps, abominations, and other Fade creatures which cross the Veil into the ordinary world are each the remnant of a thought or memory or action of some being that once upon a time existed -- or maybe even still exists -- in the ordinary world. It is memory and will and imagination and action that bring Fade creatures into being and give them their unearthly forms.
 
So, with these thoughts in mind, I would say that it is very likely that Zathrian can return from the dead, though he may appear to us in a different shape or form. It is easy to imagine that Zathrian’s strong memories of personal injury and his iron will to exact revenge might create a correspondingly strong creature of the Fade. 
 
Zathrian’s deep understanding of the arcane arts may help him to find and use, and maybe even to create, Veil portals to travel back and forth across the Veil. His elvish heritage may give him insights into the locations and working of portals such as the one Morrigan uses in Witch Hunt. So whatever he has become in the Fade, his very nature may drive him to cross the Veil and return into the ordinary world.
 
Can Zathrian return from the dead? Yes, he can. Because anything that ever was -- any memory, anything imagined, any will to commit an action -- can continue to endure in the Fade. And what endures in the Fade can at certain times and in certain places cross the Veil to return again to the ordinary world. 
 
In what form will Zathrian return? That I can't say. Maybe a very powerful ogre alpha with pointy ears. Maybe as a creature similar to the one that appears at the Altar of Sundering.   I don't really know. But I am pretty sure that Zathrian can return in some shape or other. 

Modifié par gandanlin, 08 septembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If this is about that comment I made on your last thread, let me clarify: I don't think he could come back if he truly died. That so far seems to be impossible: from what I understand, even the one mage who kept herself un-alive in the Fade doesn't seem to have much influence outside of it. What I thought might happen, however, is that the continued existence of the curse might keep him alive, and he works with that to reconstruct his body.

Edit: Which I think is creepier than your suggestion.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 septembre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Blazomancer]

gandanlin wrote...

The demons, shades, wisps, abominations, and other Fade creatures which cross the Veil into the ordinary world are each the remnant of a thought or memory or action of some being that once upon a time existed -- or maybe even still exists -- in the ordinary world. It is memory and will and imagination and action that bring Fade creatures into being and give them their unearthly forms.
 

Hmm, sorry to differ but I understood that most demons are malevolent fade entities that have possessed a living entity or a corpse in the physical realm. Shades and wraiths are few of the fade creatures that cross the fade and survive in the physical world without possessing a host.

So, i guess when someone's dead in the physical sense, he/she cease to exist (or probably return to the Maker, as the case may be). How can they return?

[caradoc2000]

Everyone can return from the dead. All it requires is a bit of creative script writing on Bioware's part.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nice.

[gandanlin]

Blazomancer wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

The demons, shades, wisps, abominations, and other Fade creatures which cross the Veil into the ordinary world are each the remnant of a thought or memory or action of some being that once upon a time existed -- or maybe even still exists -- in the ordinary world. It is memory and will and imagination and action that bring Fade creatures into being and give them their unearthly forms.
 

Hmm, sorry to differ but I understood that most demons are malevolent fade entities that have possessed a living entity or a corpse in the physical realm. Shades and wraiths are few of the fade creatures that cross the fade and survive in the physical world without possessing a host.

So, i guess when someone's dead in the physical sense, he/she cease to exist (or probably return to the Maker, as the case may be). How can they return?

I'm going by what I read in the codex somewhere.  I think it was the entry for the Fade, written by the mage I mentioned in the opening post.

Justice in Awakenings is an interesting example of a benevolent spirit which crosses the Veil -- not by choice, of course, but he ends up in the ordinary world anyway--with a little help from the Baroness.  There is no mention of what happened to the physical body that Justice once was attached to, but the point is that it does not matter.  His spirit endured in the Fade and was able to come back and take possession of Kristoff's body.

So presumably Zathrian could do the same.

**editied to add additional info

Modifié par gandanlin, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Blazomancer]

Yes, I remember reading that codex entry, but what I wanted to say is that the fade entities are created(by the Maker?) like what they are from the beginning. The fade is a completely different universe with it's own creatures and construct. Justice was a creature belonging to the fade and he was never in the physical world before. Although transitions are possible to-and-fro, and some beings from the physical realm can remain trapped even after the physical body's deacy, it is never mentioned that someone from the physical world goes to the fade after death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, I don't think we ever find out which of these is true. But if it's what Gandanlin is suggesting, then so far only one person seems to have kept their mind through the process. (Or if that's not the usual method, then only one person has been known to manage it at all.)

[gandanlin]

A bit more on this subject:

We see time and again in the DA world that the dead can come to life again. Ogres that are killed can rise up alive again and must be killed a second time. A body that has been cut into pieces can be re-assembled and brought back to life on the Altar of Sundering. The body of Kristoff which lies dead in the Blackmarshes can be brought back to life by the spirit of Justice.
 
The hard distinction between life and death that exists in real life does not exist in the DA world. It is quite possible to cross the Veil between life and death in the DA world. Mortals may enter the Fade and return unharmed. Likewise, creatures of the Fade may cross the Veil. The living can die in the DA world, but death is not always permanent. Anything that endures in the Fade may return to the land of the living by crossing the Veil.
 
So I suppose we might ask, what will endure in the Fade? And the answer seems to be: anything that lives in the memories of the living; anything that lives in the imagination of the living; anything that the living continue to want to happen -- these things also live and endure in the Fade. The will and imagination and memories of the living can influence what happens in the Fade. And correspondingly, creatures of the Fade can enter into and influence what happens in the ordinary world.
 
What occurs with Justice in Awakening is an interesting example of this. The people of the Blackmarsh are treated most unjustly by the Baroness. The spirit of Justice seems to exist because the people of the Blackmarsh recognize the injustice of their captivity, and while they are unable to set things aright on their own, they are yet able to imagine the freedom that will only come if justice is done. Justice is the only defense against the oppressive power of a tyrant. Even when justice is only imagined, it yet exists as a form and a hope and a dream. Justice is called into being by the will of the people of the Blackmarsh to be free of their oppressor. Justice is a spirit of the Fade.
 
When the Wardens agree to serve the cause of justice, they are able to release the people of the Blackmarsh from their age-old enslavement to the Baroness. When the Wardens serve the cause of justice, then the Fade spirit which is called Justice becomes their ally. When Justice inhabits the body of Cristoff he can be convinced to remain with the Wardens to fight darkspawn, which is another just cause in the lands the Wardens serve. Those oppressed by darkspawn also dream of justice.
 
What endures in the Fade? What will come back from the Fade to live again? These are good questions. What will be is often what is made to be. Those who dream of justice call that spirit from the Fade. Tyrants may in some fashion kill justice, but justice is never dead. Justice can return from the dead to serve those who keep the idea of Justice alive in living memory and imagination and will.
 
So, let us return to the question of Zathrian.   I would say that as long as the memory and will and imagination of the elvish people keeps Zathrian alive, Zathrian can return from the dead. Because as long as Zathrian's spirit lives on in the elvish people, as long as he is remembered and those memories live in the elvish mind, then the possibility of his return exists. He may return to champion the fight for elvish freedom, if that is the spirit of Zathrian that endures in the Fade. Or he may return in a demonic form, a creature summoned up by bitter memories and evil thoughts of vengeance. I would say that Zathrian is a powerful enough magician to even influence the way he appears in his future incarnation -- his form may reflect all the torment that lives within him and his people. 
 
Time alone can reveal which and what will be.

Modifié par gandanlin, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:05 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

gandanlin wrote...

A bit more on this subject:

We see time and again in the DA world that the dead can come to life again. Ogres that are killed can rise up alive again and must be killed a second time. A body that has been cut into pieces can be re-assembled and brought back to life on the Altar of Sundering. The body of Kristoff which lies dead in the Blackmarshes can be brought back to life by the spirit of Justice.
 
The hard distinction between life and death that exists in real life does not exist in the DA world. It is quite possible to cross the Veil between life and death in the DA world. Mortals may enter the Fade and return unharmed. Likewise, creatures of the Fade may cross the Veil. The living can die in the DA world, but death is not always permanent. Anything that endures in the Fade may return to the land of the living by crossing the Veil.
 
So I suppose we might ask, what will endure in the Fade? And the answer seems to be: anything that lives in the memories of the living; anything that lives in the imagination of the living; anything that the living continue to want to happen -- these things also live and endure in the Fade. The will and imagination and memories of the living can influence what happens in the Fade. And correspondingly, creatures of the Fade can enter into and influence what happens in the ordinary world.
 
What occurs with Justice in Awakening is an interesting example of this. The people of the Blackmarsh are treated most unjustly by the Baroness. The spirit of Justice seems to exist because the people of the Blackmarsh recognize the injustice of their captivity, and while they are unable to set things aright on their own, they are yet able to imagine the freedom that will only come if justice is done. Justice is the only defense against the oppressive power of a tyrant. Even when justice is only imagined, it yet exists as a form and a hope and a dream. Justice is called into being by the will of the people of the Blackmarsh to be free of their oppressor. Justice is a spirit of the Fade.
 
When the Wardens agree to serve the cause of justice, they are able to release the people of the Blackmarsh from their age-old enslavement to the Baroness. When the Wardens serve the cause of justice, then the Fade spirit which is called Justice becomes their ally. When Justice inhabits the body of Cristoff he can be convinced to remain with the Wardens to fight darkspawn, which is another just cause in the lands the Wardens serve. Those oppressed by darkspawn also dream of justice.
 
What endures in the Fade? What will come back from the Fade to live again? These are good questions. What will be is often what is made to be. Those who dream of justice call that spirit from the Fade. Tyrants may in some fashion kill justice, but justice is never dead. Justice can return from the dead to serve those who keep the idea of Justice alive in living memory and imagination and will.
 
So, let us return to the question of Zathrian.   I would say that as long as the memory and will and imagination of the elvish people keeps Zathrian alive, Zathrian can return from the dead. Because as long as Zathrian's spirit lives on in the elvish people, as long as he is remembered and those memories live in the elvish mind, then the possibility of his return exists. He may return to champion the fight for elvish freedom, if that is the spirit of Zathrian that endures in the Fade. Or he may return in a demonic form, a creature summoned up by bitter memories and evil thoughts of vengeance. I would say that Zathrian is a powerful enough magician to even influence the way he appears in his future incarnation -- his form may reflect all the torment that lives within him and his people. 
 
Time alone can reveal which and what will be.

A couple points of clairification: I don't think that Ogre is truly alive, and Kristoff certainly isn't. It's just a Fade Spirit hitching a ride, probably in both cases. Also, the Fade beast was more like what I suggested Zathrian could do (never really dead, since its life was contained elsewhere) and we can't always tell living from dead in the real world either.

And again, I don't think we ever truly discover if spirits already exist and model themselves after man, or if man creates the spirits.

As for Zathrian coming back? The dead returning to life has been stated to be impossible by the Cardinal Laws of Magic codex. Note however that Gaider has already admitted these laws aren't hard and fast: he says that they aren't really meant to limit the authors, so much as encourage moderation. When someone teleports, or legitimately comes back from the dead, it's supposed to mean something. It's supposed to be something that does not happen everyday, as opposed to other settings where one wonders why people even care when someone dies.

So, Zathrian could come back. In theory.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Blazomancer]

I don't think the memories and wishes of mortals have anything to do with fade entities.
I mean, if zathrian continues to exist after death, it will be only because he passed onto the fade after death and not because the dalish kept him alive in their hearts, memories or something.

And justice's existence has nothing to do with the blackmarsh peoples' need to rise against oppression. He was there even before the blackmarsh incident took place. It is often mentioned that benevolent spirits choose to pursue different virtues of the mortal world like valor, hope, courage, justice and such. 'The justice' we stumble upon in awakening is just a simple spirit that chose to follow the virtue 'justice' of the mortals; fascinated as they are by anything and everything related to the mortal world. He introduces himself as 'a spirit of justice' & not as 'the spirit of justice', because it's obvious that he's not the only spirit to pursue justice.

So what happens one day is that this spirit of justice stumbles upon the screwed blackmarsh folk in the fade, and decides to help them. That's my hypothesis and I guess that's what I understood from the codex entries and all that. But i seriously never found any instance when the memories, hopes of people did anything to the fabric of the fade.
But that said, I may be wrong and I equally respect your hypothesis @gandalin.