291 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

paul165 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

paul165 wrote...

No! Really? The Empire with their grey uniforms, jack boots and racist policies are modelled after the SS. What's next are you going to tell us that the Death Eaters were as well becuase I'm sure no-one could work that out.sarcasm.

Still doesn't excuse going Godwins in such a crude way though.

Stormtrooper is a nickname for the SS troops and the Empire themselves are modeled after fascism.

Yes. I know. Everybody older than about 10 who has ever seen the films knows hence the sarcasm tag. Also stormtroopers weren't the SS they were the SA history pendant.

Still doesn't excuse the Godwins.

Yet its not an example of a Godwins since its on tpoic.

[Rommel49]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Harbinger isn't the Reaper leader.

It's directly stated in the codex that the Alliance pegged Harbinger as the Reaper leading the attack on Earth. Even then, it doesn't answer the point - Harbinger's blocking access to one of the two critical objectives in the battle.

It's been the standard of warfare for nearly a century now; in that situation you call for fire, it's common sense. "Hey guys, can't reach the beam to fire off the Crucible and end the war because there's a skyscraper-sized target in my way... little help?"

If thats the case then neither Sovreign nor the Rannoch Reaper would have been killed a lot easier.  Also if Reapers were that easy to defeat then there be no need for a gun to shoot out Thresher Maws or for Leviathan.

I and others have answered this point in the past; Sovereign didn't even really attempt to fight the fleet at the Citadel, it simply rushed to the Citadel itself; the Destiny Ascension was under attack (and hypothetically destroyed) by the Geth, not Sovereign. As far as I know, the Destiny Ascension may well have been the only Dreadnought there, all of the other Allied casualties were cruisers.

The destroyer on Rannoch was never engaged by the main guns of the Quarian fleet, it's observable in the bombardment - all of the weapons fire came from the smaller turreted guns, not the big spinal mounted main guns themselves. Which makes sense, given cruisers are pegged as being enough to blow up destroyers if they can get within range.

[Blueprotoss]

Rommel49 wrote...

It's directly stated in the codex that the Alliance pegged Harbinger as the Reaper leading the attack on Earth. Even then, it doesn't answer the point - Harbinger's blocking access to one of the two critical objectives in the battle.

It's been the standard of warfare for nearly a century now; in that situation you call for fire, it's common sense. "Hey guys, can't reach the beam to fire off the Crucible and end the war because there's a skyscraper-sized target in my way... little help?"

Harbinger can still lead the Reapers even when all the Reapers is guided by the Catalyst.  Militaries do have a chain of command for a reason.

Rommel49 wrote... 

I and others have answered this point in the past; Sovereign didn't even really attempt to fight the fleet at the Citadel, it simply rushed to the Citadel itself; the Destiny Ascension was under attack (and hypothetically destroyed) by the Geth, not Sovereign. As far as I know, the Destiny Ascension may well have been the only Dreadnought there, all of the other Allied casualties were cruisers.

Sovreign was invincible until Vigil helped and Saren's organic body died because Sovreign's shields were down.  Also the Citadel and Alliances forces were more worried about the Geth then Soveign.

Rommel49 wrote...  

The destroyer on Rannoch was never engaged by the main guns of the Quarian fleet, it's observable in the bombardment - all of the weapons fire came from the smaller turreted guns, not the big spinal mounted main guns themselves. Which makes sense, given cruisers are pegged as being enough to blow up destroyers if they can get within range.

How is that when most of the Quarian ships over Rannoch were part of the Civilian fleet and they have guns that rival the Heavy fleet.

[Linksys17]

Harbinger... who was that,.. im pretty sure that was in me2 but i dont quite remember

[Arisugawa]

This is actually a fairly contentious topic in the past few years. For the most part, a boss fight has become so required in the design of the final level that the lack of one is jarring. Many gamers feel that without a boss fight, the game lacks a sense of accomplishment or that something vital is missing.

I'm going to admit that I'm not one of those gamers. I'm quite happy having a game end without a boss fight, and that in general, I find most boss fights to be ugly representations of expectation and requirement and rarely meet the standards for which they are attempting to achieve.

One of the tropes of a boss fight is having to do an absolutely ludicrous amount of damage to an enemy which by all other appearances shouldn't be as absorb as much damage as it does.

A prime example of this is the fight with Tela Vasir midway through Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Vasir has just managed to crawl her way out of a wrecked skycar. She is bleeding profusely and stumbling along both from her injuries and the increasing blood loss, and yet, she is debately the single toughest opponent in the entire Mass Effect franchise. But, aside from the fact this is a "boss fight," does any justification exist for why this fight is so tough? Her Barrier and Armor ratings are off the chart, forcing the player to essentially kill her with mosquito bites until both are depleted. Even before that, she pulls the Kai Leng trick (or perhaps we should say that Leng pulls a Vasir) of bowing out of the fight to "recharge" while calling in something else to distract us for a while. And just like Leng, she has conveniently available air support (and an area where the air support can be used...) ready to assist.  

Is this fun? Is it challenging? The answers are going to depend upon the player being asked the questions. No single Asari in the franchise offers as much resistance as an injured and bleeding Vasir does, and it makes the player question why their own Barriers or Shields are so ineffective by way of comparison, or why their own Armor rating might as well be non-existent in comparison to Vasir's. It really doesn't matter that she's a Spectre or a biotic; the scale that Vasir operates off of exceeds that of any other individual in the game. Midway through the fight, I'm asking myself why I'm fighting her and not doing absolutely everything I can to recruit her for the Suicide Mission; if we are meant to take her in-fight strength as a representation of how deadly she actually is then she is a far better biotic than Jack (likely the single most  powerful human biotic ever) and Samara (essentially a Matriarch Justicar with several centuries of biotic experience and training) combined.

If you enjoy the style of combat that this fight demands, then the Vasir fight is highly entertaining. If you do not, it's something you have to grind through, questioning why this fight is taking so long as it considering how wounded the enemy was prior to the beginning of it, and the capacity for violence of Vasir's three-person opposition.

The other major trope of a boss fight is having to learn (or use) a new mechanic that is specific to that fight and that fight alone and will never be used again in the course of the game. The Mass Effect franchise has generally been good about avoiding this one, though you can argue that the Reaper fight on Rannoch meets the criteria. Better examples would be the various boss fights and their set piece mechanics from Bloodrayne 2, though foremost in my mind right now would be the fight with Ephemera.

It was one of the reasons that Tomb Raider: Underworld did not have a final boss fight and elected instead to have a boss puzzle, according to Eric Lindstrom. Rather than have a repetitive combat which boils down to chipping away at an enemy's massive defensives, or having to use mechanics specific to that fight (destroying Ephemera's shadow points, for example), the final level was instead a massive puzzle that had to be completed by using techniques already in use throughout the game while under constant attack.

This is comparable to what Mass Effect 3 did during the final stage of the Priority: Earth mission, save that instead of solving the puzzle, you're simply outnumbered and outgunned on every front and have to survive relatively improbable odds. Mass Effect 2 did something similar during the Horizon mission prior to the appearance of the Praetorian during the period where EDI was trying recalibrate the colony's defenses.

Is it necessary to have a "boss?" I don't think so, and I think expected one to be there is as much a failing of a game as is wandering into an area with conveniently placed chest-high crates so that cover is available during the next combat. I would rather have something that did not contrived in its arrangement, such as the Priority: Earth onslaught, than I would having to fight Tela Vasir again.

I didn't come into Mass Effect 3 expecting to take on a Reaper capital ship directly, and that included Harbinger. If such a thing were to take place, it would have had to be in space or at least with massive fire support from space-born forces, which lends itself again to the trope of having to create and use mechanics specific to that fight, unless the a significant portion of the game was meant to be devoted to the combat of taking down capital ships.

I agree with TAO that we should have had some kind of resolution with Harbinger, given the role that Harbinger played in Mass Effect 2 and the importance of Harbinger's obession with Shepard. But I certainly didn't want that to be on foot in front of the beam moving cover to cover while shooting Cain blasts at it ala Mass Effect 2's Proto-Reaper fight, only on a much bigger scale.

I would have been fantastically happy with a boss level, essentially, where Shepard & company somehow sneak inside Harbinger and then have to do everything they can to destroy Harbinger from the inside and having the loss of Harbinger have massive repercussions for the remaining Reaper forces.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 09 septembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rommel49 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Harbinger isn't the Reaper leader.

It's directly stated in the codex that the Alliance pegged Harbinger as the Reaper leading the attack on Earth.

Correction: Harbinger is one of the Reaper leaders for the attack on Earth.

Elsewhere? Over all Reapers? No such claim is extended.

[Ithurael]

Has anyone played Alice: Madness Returns?

That game only - truly - had one boss. There were tough monsters that were introduced (and you think it will be a boss) but then you find those monsters spawn more and more and the reason they got a unique intro was to discover the mechanic to kill them.

Though, the bossfight in Alice was amongst the more disturbing fights I have seen. Just the way he tries to "grab" her knowing what he is and what he has done.

[rumination888]

Arisugawa wrote...

One of the tropes of a boss fight is having to do an absolutely ludicrous amount of damage to an enemy which by all other appearances shouldn't be as absorb as much damage as it does.

A prime example of this is the fight with Tela Vasir midway through Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Invalid example. Tela Vasir is a Vanguard.

[Blueprotoss]

rumination888 wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

One of the tropes of a boss fight is having to do an absolutely ludicrous amount of damage to an enemy which by all other appearances shouldn't be as absorb as much damage as it does.

A prime example of this is the fight with Tela Vasir midway through Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Invalid example. Tela Vasir is a Vanguard.

How is that when she wasn't the only Vanguard boss in the ME series.

[rumination888]

Blueprotoss wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

One of the tropes of a boss fight is having to do an absolutely ludicrous amount of damage to an enemy which by all other appearances shouldn't be as absorb as much damage as it does.

A prime example of this is the fight with Tela Vasir midway through Lair of the Shadow Broker.

Invalid example. Tela Vasir is a Vanguard.

How is that when she wasn't the only Vanguard boss in the ME series.

Tela Vasir was modeled after the near-invincible, charge-crazy Vanguard community of ME2. Her protections are supposed to be a pain in the ass. Her health bar is low and she dies in a few hits after her protections are down.

[Blueprotoss]

rumination888 wrote...

Tela Vasir was modeled after the near-invincible, charge-crazy Vanguard community of ME2. Her protections are supposed to be a pain in the ass. Her health bar is low and she dies in a few hits after her protections are down.

She still wasn't invincible while I didn't have any major issues with her now the Shadow Broker himself is a whole different story.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I did no such thing. My definition of confrontation has always been the obvious one - a meaningful confrontation between the main antagonist and the protagonist. Not the side villain. Not "rocks fall, everyone dies", but and actual confrontation, verbal or physical, that ends with suitable catharsis.
Have I spelt it out enough for you? Or will you continue to wallow in technicalities for no reason?

Yet you did the opposite since you flipped the table especially when you said Harbinger and Shepard didn't have a confrontation.

The Angry One wrote... 

I know right?
I don't get that line of thinking at all.

It is "my way or the highway" with you.

Again this is another example of willfull use of ignorance.  I mean this in the sense that you know the meaning (the connotation) of the word within the context of its use.  The meaning was obvious.  However, as is always the case since this is like dealing with toddlers one must be extremely explicit and explain every single thing said so as not to be misconstrued.  I don't know how else to phrase this.  It's like me saying I love ice cream and someone thinking I mean I love ice cream romantically.  I can't say I wanted a happier ending without that being torn apart by people that by now do know what I mean.

This is a game about the war, for the life of the galaxy for the very existence of all the people in it.  If I say I want a confrontation with the bad guys well you darned well know what I mean, but you have to act as ignorant as possible about it-I'm not saying you are ignorant, just that you are a good facsimile thereof-and say there is a confrontation.  No, not under the truest conditions.  There is no real authentic satisfying confrontation that leads to catharsis and a satisfying end.  You know full well that is what TAO was talking about-I am actually giving you credit for not being so ignorant as to not know this.

Your kidding noone. When she used the implication no confrontation happened. It is innacurate, she is wrong and need to look up the word. Moving the goal posts is what she did after.

I find it ironic you use the term toddlers who need everything explained to them but one of the key aspects of those who hate the ending is doing what you apply to toddlers in the first place. They need everything explained. By proxy I guess they must all be toddlers too using your logic.

When you say was no confrontation with x, y or z and there was one your are simply wrong and misrepresenting what actually occured. I corrected you already and TAO, you who thinks it is not a confrontation if one person is in no condition to retaliate. A confrontation does not require retaliation in order for someone to have been confronted. Do not use the word if you do not know what it means.

You can say it was not the confrontation you wanted or the way you wanted it, but you cannot say was no confrontation like she did. She was wrong plain and simple.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:02 .

[sonicphoto]

If anything, the human reaper from ME2 was too video gamey, but harbinger wouldn't have been that way because we were expecting it, and ready to do it.

[Epique Phael767]

sonicphoto wrote...

If anything, the human reaper from ME2 was too video gamey, but harbinger wouldn't have been that way because we were expecting it, and ready to do it.

Human reaper is also lore-breaking. Levi DLC says that Harby whas the first reaper and all the new capital ships were to be made in his image.

[Dragoonlordz]

Personally like said I can see possible to do something with Harbinger but not in the core game. He will I am almost certain still be there before the beam and equally sure any 'additional' confrontation with him will be kept within a DLC and not impact the ending. There is a very tiny chance that they could throw in a cinematc of him being killed between the time of entering the beam and prior to talking to the catalyst but more likely anything will be in form of DLC and no change to core game since not everyone wants this 'additional' confrontation with Harbinger.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[clarkusdarkus]

Too videogamey for a videogame...mwahahaha that will always make me laugh.....

Hi im shepard, you may remember me from being rebuilt from death like robocop then being alive again ,which of course is videogamey, and so it should be, they just couldnt be bothered to think of a way and execute it due to there rushed game needing to be released. Hell even leviathan didn't have any sort of boss, they can't be bothered even tho LOTSB proved it can be done to peopl'es content.

[Kataphrut94]

How do you have a final boss when your character is bleeding to death and can barely walk? Weird how many people forget that part.

The real final confrontation is the missile defend section in Priority: Earth, which was all about surviving overwhelming odds and getting through by the skin of your teeth. Then you have the beam run (basically a cutscene), Marauder Shields, who might as well be the final boss on insanity given how frigging broken he is, and then finally the confrontation with the Illusive Man which is a verbal bossfight that you can't really loose unless you're dumb and don't take the Renegade interrupts.

[Archilus5]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

sonicphoto wrote...

If anything, the human reaper from ME2 was too video gamey, but harbinger wouldn't have been that way because we were expecting it, and ready to do it.

Human reaper is also lore-breaking. Levi DLC says that Harby whas the first reaper and all the new capital ships were to be made in his image.

This issue has been solved before, it´s the core of the Reaper thats made to look like the species it was made from

[Vigil_N7]

A final boss fight with a Harbinger controlled Illusive Man (like saren in ME1) to the epic reaper/sovereign theme?

That would've been epic. Unfortunately, I can't see where they could've fit it in. Shepard would have had to avoid Harbinger's laser and all squaddies would need to board the citadel if they wanted a normal boss fight.

[Ithurael]

Vigil_N7 wrote...


A final boss fight with a Harbinger controlled Illusive Man (like saren in ME1) to the epic reaper/sovereign theme?

That would've been epic. Unfortunately, I can't see where they could've fit it in. Shepard would have had to avoid Harbinger's laser and all squaddies would need to board the citadel if they wanted a normal boss fight.

Well, since they ripped off the story from Deus Ex, why not 'copy' they mechanics from Shadow of the Collossus? for a fight with harbinger. You can even have the same ending sequences once harbinger blows the f*ck up.

[Blueprotoss]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

A final boss fight with a Harbinger controlled Illusive Man (like saren in ME1) to the epic reaper/sovereign theme?

That would've been epic. Unfortunately, I can't see where they could've fit it in. Shepard would have had to avoid Harbinger's laser and all squaddies would need to board the citadel if they wanted a normal boss fight.

Agreed because its out of character for the TIM since his strength its intelligence not physicality.

Ithurael wrote...

Well, since they ripped off the story from Deus Ex, why not 'copy' they mechanics from Shadow of the Collossus? for a fight with harbinger. You can even have the same ending sequences once harbinger blows the f*ck up.

This is just semantics like how Deus Ex didn't invent a speific storyline especially when you look at Blade Runner and Terminator.  Nothing is completely original even when video game appeared.

[Twinzam.V]

Blueprotoss wrote...

This is just semantics like how Deus Ex didn't invent a speific storyline especially when you look at Blade Runner and Terminator.  Nothing is completely original even when video game appeared.

But you usually would try to cover up that lack of originality. Not do the exact same thing as DE did. Reach end of the game, present choices. ME3, reach end of the game, present choices. 
And Deus EX was launched way, wwwaaaayyy back (aprox. 12 years ago). 
What they were expecting that old gamers had forgot DE ending? Because only new gamers think that when any one mentions DE, they are refering to DE: HR.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Ithurael]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Well, since they ripped off the story from Deus Ex, why not 'copy' they mechanics from Shadow of the Collossus? for a fight with harbinger. You can even have the same ending sequences once harbinger blows the f*ck up.

This is just semantics like how Deus Ex didn't invent a speific storyline especially when you look at Blade Runner and Terminator.  Nothing is completely original even when video game appeared.

So at the end of Blade runner Deckard was given the three options to destroy all replicants, control all replicants and rule the planet, or merge with all replicant techology?

I will admit that there are no 'original' stories (joseph cambell did a great series on the hero with a thousand faces) However, the dialog with starkid and the final options are too much like Deus Ex.

Never was the central conflict about resolving the metaphysical tension between organic and synthetic life. Maybe if we made the reapers and then they rebelled against us I could see that. But to take that [org vs synth] new central conflict and force it on us - superceeding the original conflict in importance, then make the last three choices resolve that conflict primarily seems a bit off.

I think I actually saw a fan video where someone spliced in the ending dialog of Deus Ex with the ending of Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Ithurael, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[Ridwan]

I'm with you, games like shooters need a boss. We're playing a game here folks, not watching a film.

Edit: In before I have to deal with raging fans for calling it a shooter. RPG shooter then.

Modifié par M25105, 09 septembre 2012 - 03:00 .

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

This is just semantics like how Deus Ex didn't invent a speific storyline especially when you look at Blade Runner and Terminator.  Nothing is completely original even when video game appeared.

But you usually would try to cover up that lack of originality. Not do the exact same thing as DE did. Reach end of the game, present choices. ME3, reach end of the game, present choices. 
And Deus EX was launched way, wwwaaaayyy back (aprox. 12 years ago). 
What they were expecting that old gamers had forgot DE ending? Because only new gamers think that when any one mentions DE, they are refering to DE: HR.

Thats a straw-mann since today's sci-fi isn't that original because most of sci-fi's originalty was tapped out in the mid 80s.   The Outer Limits and the Twilight Zone full filled that role.