291 réponses à ce sujet

[RenegonSQ]

D24O wrote...

OP you're too video-gamey.

When are you gonna be crowned as BSN's biggest troll?

No disrespect is intended with this comment, I am being absolutely serious.

[ElementL09]

Kinda wierd to hear a statment like that from Bioware, I mean look at how successful Lair of the Shadow Broker was, and that DLC had the best boss fights in the whole trilogy. <-----Theres the standard, Bioware.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

I agree that Bioware's boss battles are too videogamey. Glad they didn't do that with TIM in ME3; all things considered, that's not what the ending desperately needed anyway.

Lolololololol at the implication that they think their art transcends "videogamey", though. Does rolling around on a platform shooting lazorz at an angry Reaper not qualify? Why didn't that laser carve the whole cliff in half while it was busy grazing Shepard half a dozen times? You'd think a stream of molten metal that can rip clean through an armored ship in seconds would pack a bit more of a punch.

[Kamfrenchie]

It's not that boss battles are too video gamey, they pretty much exist in a lot of books and films when you have a big duel or something like that.

It's just that they couln't come up with a good boss fight.

Sonic had good boss fight, Alpha protocl had a few good ones too, baldur's gate, dragon age origins, zelda, etc

[Hydralysk]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Hydralysk wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
TIM is more of a mental enemy and his chat at the end felt like a vocal "boss battle".

I didn't mind the confrontation with TIM, but it didn't feel like a boss battle, you pick one side of a conversation wheel and if you had always done that before you can get him to kill himself. Saren's dialogue was much the same and I enjoyed that, but that's because there was a boss fight (regardless of how stupid) afterwards, the dialogue just helped me advance towards it. Even if the boss was silly I wouldn't of felt as good at the end of ME1 if Saren just shot himself and then the fleets killed Sovereign alone.

If you're going to make a verbal battle it can't just be picking one side of the wheel repeatedly. If they wanted to make it interesting they should've done what DE:HR did, you use your knowledge of the person in question to predict the best option to convince the opponent that you are right. Mass Effect could even use your choices and experiences as examples to prove your point.

You're not a stuck with one side of the conversation wheel with TIM and you still fight for your survival.  Either way TIM isn't a physical enemy hence why he sent Kai Lang after Shepard to be his/her physical threat.

The verbal battle was actually great between Shepard and TIM while if you want some of the best verbal battles then you should look at MGS.  Another example while its physical and verbal is the Krauser knife battle in RE4.

No you aren't stuck with one point, but you might as well be, if you met the other dialogue requirements he shoots himself, if you didn't, you shoot him yourself, either way it cuts to the same clip. You can be bipolar as hell in the last conversation and the direction and tone never shifts or gives a different result, the only way you can fail is with a non standard game over.

I think you are confusing what I'm refering to as a verbal battle with what I'll call 'combat dialogue'. If you want to have a verbal battle I need to be choosing what to say and have the possibility of failure, otherwise it's no different than going through a normal boss with an invincibility cheat. MGS and the RE4 fight do weave dialogue into fight scenes, but the dialogue itself is never the gameplay portion.

DE:HR had you picking from different options as conversations advanced over intervals. At each interval the player had to use what they'd heard or know about the person to figure out the best possible line to get the person to agree with you or give you want you want. If you failed, the scene played out and the game continued with that in mind. That's how you play out a verbal battle, you have the player make decisions that will influence where it goes, and the possibility for failure, else I'm just listening to a very dramatic cutscene that requires me to click a mouse button once in awhile.

Modifié par Hydralysk, 08 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[The Smitchens]

emanziboy wrote...

 Q: Can a boss fight be too "video-gamey"?

A:


Yes. Yes, it can.

Now that was a stupid battle.  Fights like that don't even matter what difficulty you're on.  They're so wash, rinse, repeat.  The whole entire fight I just grimaced in disappointment.  And to add insult to injury they didn't do any better in Arkham City.  Clayface was visually cooler, but he was such a pushover.

[Reofeir]

I'm still upset that the final boss of Mass Effect 3 wasn't a monkey reaper with two balloons on each shoulder (one with a and one with a face) and has a machine gun that shoots swarmers.

[Conniving_Eagle]

RenegonSQ wrote...

D24O wrote...

OP you're too video-gamey.

When are you gonna be crowned as BSN's biggest troll?

No disrespect is intended with this comment, I am being absolutely serious.

You're joking, right? That's D240, dude. He's harmless, and he's actually a mod, so I'd make sure not to ****** him off.

[Reofeir]

ElementL09 wrote...

Kinda wierd to hear a statment like that from Bioware, I mean look at how successful Lair of the Shadow Broker was, and that DLC had the best boss fights in the whole trilogy. <-----Theres the standard, Bioware.

To be fair the comment was talking about making The illusive man become the boss of the game for the sake of there being a boss. More boss fights in DLCS, however, is always welcomed. 

I want to fight a YMIR mech again...That's 3x stronger...

[D24O]

RenegonSQ wrote...

D24O wrote...

OP you're too video-gamey.

When are you gonna be crowned as BSN's biggest troll?

No disrespect is intended with this comment, I am being absolutely serious.

Since Island and maybe Shepdog got permabanned, I think now would be a goot time to take the throne.

[Conniving_Eagle]

D24O wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

D24O wrote...

OP you're too video-gamey.

When are you gonna be crowned as BSN's biggest troll?

No disrespect is intended with this comment, I am being absolutely serious.

Since Island and maybe Shepdog got permabanned, I think now would be a goot time to take the throne.

I thought it was only five days? What did shepdog do?

[D24O]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I thought it was only five days? What did shepdog do?

I'm not sure shepdog is permabanned. I know he was in on Necro storm 2, and Island got permabanned, so I'm just making an assumption that I dearly hope is untrue.

[3DandBeyond]

You know I actually cannot stand these things:

Video games that are video gamey

Actual big battles in games about war.

Fighting against the biggest baddest enemies in the galaxy-you know the ones you spent 100 plus hours trying to actually face and fight.

Live heroes-smash them, smash them all. What good are they in a video game any way? Someone think they're supposed to help you win or something?

Fun in video games. I play them in order to feel bad so I'd prefer all games were labeled so as to reflect just what they should be-not fun.

Boss fights. Who the hell wants to fight a boss in a video game? Anyone can do that. It takes real nerve and talent and is so much more satisfying to have boss conversations. I think I wish all devs would re-write games and get rid of boss fights and make them follow this model instead. Because, I don't want games to be fun.

Uplifting and satisfying feelings when I finish "playing" (it's not fun so I am searching for just what you call a game that is not fun). Who wants to feel a sense of accomplishment when they finish a game? Not me. I prefer to be left feeling numb and unhappy. That's way better and cooler.

I loathe actually playing the last half hour (the conflict resolution part) of a 100 plus hour video game series. I prefer not to have to even touch my controller at the end of a game, when most mundane games would be featuring a lot of action and tension as you work to get to the end. I like it when the game plays itself so I don't have to be bothered. It's so boring to actually be forced to try and win the game through combat and all. I love it when a game just makes me pick something to end it. Because, it's so not fun and I'm all about not having fun.

I hate it when actual embraceable logic is used in chit chats with a game boss. I prefer not to understand how and why things to end a game can happen. I also prefer to not know what these things will actually do. Ambiguity is exciting.

I hate it when games tell me or show me too much-I don't need things explained or shown to me. I'm not two years old. I can imagine everything I need to know. I know they use the word video in labeling games as video games. But, hell why overuse the video aspect. A little bit goes a long way. I'm pretty sure that all I need is fights with a few bad guys and I can imagine everything else. An actual story is not needed and I especially do not need to see it.

I'd also prefer that they not call them games anymore since really they should always be about real life. So, what it boils down to for me is they should get rid of the video aspect and get rid of the games moniker and voila', that's what I want to "play".

[Conniving_Eagle]

D24O wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I thought it was only five days? What did shepdog do?

I'm not sure shepdog is permabanned. I know he was in on Necro storm 2, and Island got permabanned, so I'm just making an assumption that I dearly hope is untrue.

I didn't think that was possible. Did he do something really bad or was Raen just fed up with him?

[Conniving_Eagle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know I actually cannot stand these things:

Video games that are video gamey

Actual big battles in games about war.

Fighting against the biggest baddest enemies in the galaxy-you know the ones you spent 100 plus hours trying to actually face and fight.

Live heroes-smash them, smash them all. What good are they in a video game any way? Someone think they're supposed to help you win or something?

Fun in video games. I play them in order to feel bad so I'd prefer all games were labeled so as to reflect just what they should be-not fun.

Boss fights. Who the hell wants to fight a boss in a video game? Anyone can do that. It takes real nerve and talent and is so much more satisfying to have boss conversations. I think I wish all devs would re-write games and get rid of boss fights and make them follow this model instead. Because, I don't want games to be fun.

Uplifting and satisfying feelings when I finish "playing" (it's not fun so I am searching for just what you call a game that is not fun). Who wants to feel a sense of accomplishment when they finish a game? Not me. I prefer to be left feeling numb and unhappy. That's way better and cooler.

I loathe actually playing the last half hour (the conflict resolution part) of a 100 plus hour video game series. I prefer not to have to even touch my controller at the end of a game, when most mundane games would be featuring a lot of action and tension as you work to get to the end. I like it when the game plays itself so I don't have to be bothered. It's so boring to actually be forced to try and win the game through combat and all. I love it when a game just makes me pick something to end it. Because, it's so not fun and I'm all about not having fun.

I hate it when actual embraceable logic is used in chit chats with a game boss. I prefer not to understand how and why things to end a game can happen. I also prefer to not know what these things will actually do. Ambiguity is exciting.

I hate it when games tell me or show me too much-I don't need things explained or shown to me. I'm not two years old. I can imagine everything I need to know. I know they use the word video in labeling games as video games. But, hell why overuse the video aspect. A little bit goes a long way. I'm pretty sure that all I need is fights with a few bad guys and I can imagine everything else. An actual story is not needed and I especially do not need to see it.

I'd also prefer that they not call them games anymore since really they should always be about real life. So, what it boils down to for me is they should get rid of the video aspect and get rid of the games moniker and voila', that's what I want to "play".

But what about art?

And you broke my sarcasm detector

[Suspire]

I loved fighting Saren, it was really video gamey but that's why I loved it. Made me nostalgic of older, simpler times, it was kinda like a Streets of Rage boss, really fun and really satisfying!
Another reason why ME1 was awesome...

Edit: I love you 3DandBeyond

Modifié par Suspire, 08 septembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[AresKeith]

they needed a boss battle playing this in the background 

[D24O]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I didn't think that was possible. Did he do something really bad or was Raen just fed up with him?

Well like I said, I don't know for sure, and I srsly hope not, but the necroing threads the day after coming off a ban proly got him a long sentence. 

[Conniving_Eagle]

AresKeith wrote...

they needed a boss battle playing this in the background 

That's for the Kai Leng boss fight.

[Conniving_Eagle]

D24O wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I didn't think that was possible. Did he do something really bad or was Raen just fed up with him?

Well like I said, I don't know for sure, and I srsly hope not, but the necroing threads the day after coming off a ban proly got him a long sentence. 

Trolling is healthy for the forums. Especially one as dysfunctional as BSN.

[Hrothdane]

Boss fights CAN be forced, but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be forced.

[Icinix]

ME3 suffers from a game that evolved to become more videoy gamey in gameplay - but then decided it didn't want to be for the end.

The game feels like a battle of ideologies.

I don't like boss fights if they're forced (like Deus Ex, DA2) - but confrontational showdowns work well. I like they tried something different, I hate the gameplay itself for the better part of ME3 went the other direction.

[emanziboy]

thefallen2far wrote...
Video games have a similar criteria. Rising action is you controling the character through the space of the game. The sense is that you're advancing in the story, if a gae or a story mianders and you don't feel like you're advancing, it gets boring quickly. It's usually seperated into sections whereas books have chapters, games have levels. Minor conflict is like minions in games. Mushrooms with eyes and turtles that fling hammers for Mario, Brutes and Banshees for Shepard, or [as an example] ebineezer Scrooge seening another example of the misery he caused someone in his life. It's primarily to flesh out the action. This could become abundant, but I needs to be broken up with Major conflict. This is when an apex of minor action acumulates to a point. Too much minor conflict becomes redundent, and you need to continue the sense of accomplishment. The major conflictis usually a very memorable moment. When you think of your favorite stories, the major conflict is usually the event you think "that was awesome". That's the major conflict in a story, it's a boss fight in games

The whole analogy of minor conflict = minor enemies and major conflict = boss fight only applies to gameplay-driven games like Mario. The story in Mario games is usually only there to provide context to what you're doing. You're primary purpose in playing Mario is to beat levels using your platforming skills to advance through levels and defeat ememies. Boss battles function like final tests, where you use what you've learned over the course of either the past few levels or even the entire game to beat an extra hard challenge.

However, a game like Mass Effect is the complete opposite of Mario as it is a story-driven game. What gameplay is in the game is only there to reinforce the story. Sure, in gameplay you may be fighting cerberus mooks, but the point of the game isn't that you're trying to kill foot soldiers. They are just there to be minor obstacles in the way to the real conflicts which are story related.

So what people really mean when they say a boss fight is too "videogamey" is that the boss fight has been put in for entirely gameplay-related reasons at the expense of the story. Examples of this include the Titan Joker from Arkham Asylum, the Human-Reaper from ME2.

The Joker fight is terrible mostly because it ruins the characterization of him as a manipulator and schemer by turning him into a brute who wants to overpower Batman physically simply so it could have a boss fight with joker. It doesn't help that the boss fight involves him falling for the same trick multiple times, which makes him look like a moron.

The Human-Reaper was terrible because it was completely redundant and thrown in there for the sake of having a boss fight. There was no story reason for it to be there. If it was taken out, the story would have played out exactly the same way: bomb/emp armed, shep and crew escape, collectors defeated, story conflict solved. This makes the boss fight feel extraneus and makes it seem like it was added for the sole reason of "this is a videogame and hey, don't video games usually have boss fights? lets have them fight this reaper."

[Reofeir]

I would also love to mention the much hated Dragon Age II final boss fights.
Side with templars, kill Orsino then Meridith.
Side with mages, kill Orsino even though you were protecting the mages well then kill Meridith.
No matter what you did you had to ALWAYS fight those two in that order. Orsino was also made a boss fight for the mage side simply because they wanted a boss fight there.
And to be honest? I liked the game but hated that. I think I hate boss fights for the sake of being a boss fight more then there NOT being a final boss.

[Conniving_Eagle]

AresKeith wrote...

they needed a boss battle playing this in the background 

(Javik begins to strangle a Cerberus spy)

Shepard: Tell me about Kai Leng! Why does he wear the visor? A lot of loyalty, for a hired merc!

Kai Leng: Or perhaps he's wondering why a Prothean would kill a man, before throwing him out of an air lock?

Shepard: (Taking the bag off of Kai Leng's head) At least you can talk. Who are you?

Bane: It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.

Bane: No one cared who I was until I put on a visor.

Shepard: If I pull that off, will you die?

Kai Leng: It would be extremely painful.

Shepard: You're a tough guy!

Kai Leng: For you.

Shepard: Was getting caught part of your plan?

Kai Leng: Of course! Dr. Solus refused our offer over yours, we had to find out what he told you.

Mordin Solus: Nothing! I didn't say a word!

Shepard: Well congradulations! You got yourself caught. Now what's the next step of your master plan?

Kai Leng: Crashing this frigate... WITH NO SURVIVORS!

-Cerberus fighters blow out the Normandy's engines and tear a hole in the hull of the engine room. Kai Leng grabs on a generator for leverage-



I'm telling you, Kai Leng was meant to be Bane, it's so painfully obvious.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 08 septembre 2012 - 02:44 .