291 réponses à ce sujet

[Rommel49]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I can't imagine what was going on in Walters' head when he uttered that nonsense.

I've seen people defending Harbinger's absence in ME3 by stating that people only imagined his importance, the game never tells us anything about his role, he's just one among many. Bioware did nothing wrong. And now that we know, as people correctly assumed in ME2, that Harbinger is, in fact, the first and blueprint Reaper, his absence from the game is even more laughable. Seriously, who thought that was a good idea?

Hell, it was always bunk. Harbinger's codex entry states that the Alliance correctly identified it as being both the oldest Reaper in the armada as well as the one leading the attack on Earth. And nobody ever fires on it, even when it's obstructing a critical objective during the most decisive moments of the war.

Speaking from experience, the idea you'd ignore a target like that is about as unrealistic as you can get. It'd be the target of every gun in range. During WWII, we have the hunt for the Bismarck as an example, or Operation Vengeance, the effort to kill Yamamoto.

You can only do so much when you're outgunned and outnumbered, which didn't happen to Harbinger.

To be fair ignorance was the main downfall for the Bismark and Yamamoto other then both being outnumbered.

That doesn't really hold true, however. Harbinger was pretty much alone when it exposed itself to fire on Earth to block access to the beam; there's an entire Allied fleet in space that's capable of bombarding it - it's called force concentration.

[Blueprotoss]

The Angry One wrote...

I did no such thing. My definition of confrontation has always been the obvious one - a meaningful confrontation between the main antagonist and the protagonist. Not the side villain. Not "rocks fall, everyone dies", but and actual confrontation, verbal or physical, that ends with suitable catharsis.
Have I spelt it out enough for you? Or will you continue to wallow in technicalities for no reason?

Yet you did the opposite since you flipped the table especially when you said Harbinger and Shepard didn't have a confrontation.

The Angry One wrote... 

I know right?
I don't get that line of thinking at all.

It is "my way or the highway" with you.

[3DandBeyond]

Hrothdane wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

 As for TAO she can continue to ignore reality but I already addressed her misinformation and dishonesty on the prior page.

You know what go ahead and be as flippant as you want with the argument, but don't you dare sit there and accuse me of being dishonest when you know full well you are misinterpreting the context of the type of confrontation we're talking about.
But of course it's so like you to accuse me of what you're doing in order to "win" due to some some percieved rivalry with me. I pity you.

I know you know this is how this person handles all posts with which he or she disagrees.  It's never genuine discussion.  It's always, "you're an idiot in these specific ways" which totally ignores anything you say.  There's no discussing going on under those rules.  The apparent desire to "win" trumps rational thought every time.

What I find most ironic is that this fellow uses a picture of someone dressed like Vash the Stampede, someone whose catchphrase was "Love and Peace" and who had the patience and humility of a saint.

Yes and also likes My Little Pony or Brony or some such and talks about
that love and understanding and all.  I see none of that here.  I see a
certain hostility that I actually pity.  I'd rather be considered a
hater of a video game (untrue) as this person has repeatedly labeled me
among other things, than a hater of real people which is what is always
shown here.

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh dear god.  I said the Emperor was the villain and acted like it-you said he never had any confrontations and that's why harbinger was like him.  I said the Emperor tried to fight with and kill Luke-you were trying to say that the Emperor and Harbinger were alike in that neither of them fought at all.  And in that you implied even that Harbinger was at least partly in charge.  I didn't.

Where did I say Harbinger was the leader-you said he never did much of anything in any of the games so he wasn't really a villain.  Do you even remember what you write at all?  Stop pulling out other random analogies just to confuse it all-you have no logic here at all on which to base anything.  You're just using crap to say some stuff that makes no sense.  I'm sorry, it's true.  You can't even follow things you've previously said so you're just arguing to argue.

Harbinger doesn't have to be the leader to be a villain.  I couldn't care less if he was the boss or number 28 in command.  He has goo inside him-goo made from people.  That means I want him dead.  That does not mean I want him acting as gatekeeper for the galaxy and I don't want to have his space seed inside me.  Dead as in incapable of making people goo anymore.  Incapable of shooting at people and trying to kill them with his beam.  In case you didn't realize it people tend to hate the reapers as a whole-they don't pick and choose the reapers based on which ones are less evil and which ones are real killers.  They want to kill all of them.

I'm sorry that I misread it orignally but I never said Harbinger wasn't a villian.  Harbinger is a villian and he has a smaller role then the Emperor did.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:48 .

[Blueprotoss]

Rommel49 wrote...

That doesn't really hold true, however. Harbinger was pretty much alone when it exposed itself to fire on Earth to block access to the beam; there's an entire Allied fleet in space that's capable of bombarding it - it's called force concentration.

Harbinger was far from alone and he still could outgun multiple fleets at the same time like what Sovreign did.  Don't forget there would also be a fear factor present in this while that can't be measured.

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I did no such thing. My definition of confrontation has always been the obvious one - a meaningful confrontation between the main antagonist and the protagonist. Not the side villain. Not "rocks fall, everyone dies", but and actual confrontation, verbal or physical, that ends with suitable catharsis.
Have I spelt it out enough for you? Or will you continue to wallow in technicalities for no reason?

Yet you did the opposite since you flipped the table especially when you said Harbinger and Shepard didn't have a confrontation.

The Angry One wrote... 

I know right?
I don't get that line of thinking at all.

It is "my way or the highway" with you.

Again this is another example of willfull use of ignorance.  I mean this in the sense that you know the meaning (the connotation) of the word within the context of its use.  The meaning was obvious.  However, as is always the case since this is like dealing with toddlers one must be extremely explicit and explain every single thing said so as not to be misconstrued.  I don't know how else to phrase this.  It's like me saying I love ice cream and someone thinking I mean I love ice cream romantically.  I can't say I wanted a happier ending without that being torn apart by people that by now do know what I mean.

This is a game about the war, for the life of the galaxy for the very existence of all the people in it.  If I say I want a confrontation with the bad guys well you darned well know what I mean, but you have to act as ignorant as possible about it-I'm not saying you are ignorant, just that you are a good facsimile thereof-and say there is a confrontation.  No, not under the truest conditions.  There is no real authentic satisfying confrontation that leads to catharsis and a satisfying end.  You know full well that is what TAO was talking about-I am actually giving you credit for not being so ignorant as to not know this.

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh dear god.  I said the Emperor was the villain and acted like it-you said he never had any confrontations and that's why harbinger was like him.  I said the Emperor tried to fight with and kill Luke-you were trying to say that the Emperor and Harbinger were alike in that neither of them fought at all.  And in that you implied even that Harbinger was at least partly in charge.  I didn't.

Where did I say Harbinger was the leader-you said he never did much of anything in any of the games so he wasn't really a villain.  Do you even remember what you write at all?  Stop pulling out other random analogies just to confuse it all-you have no logic here at all on which to base anything.  You're just using crap to say some stuff that makes no sense.  I'm sorry, it's true.  You can't even follow things you've previously said so you're just arguing to argue.

Harbinger doesn't have to be the leader to be a villain.  I couldn't care less if he was the boss or number 28 in command.  He has goo inside him-goo made from people.  That means I want him dead.  That does not mean I want him acting as gatekeeper for the galaxy and I don't want to have his space seed inside me.  Dead as in incapable of making people goo anymore.  Incapable of shooting at people and trying to kill them with his beam.  In case you didn't realize it people tend to hate the reapers as a whole-they don't pick and choose the reapers based on which ones are less evil and which ones are real killers.  They want to kill all of them.

I'm sorry that I misread it orignally but I never said Harbinger wasn't a villian.  Harbinger is a villian and he has a smaller role then the Emperor did.

How could you misread what you wrote?

[paul165]

JamieCOTC wrote...

While what Hudson said was idiotic, I agree w/ the decision to not have a boss fight w/ TIM. His strength has always been his intellect. To reduce him to a battling Husk-Boss would have cheapened the character even further.

Well you know the obvious solution to that. Don't use TIM as your final boss.

I know Hudson has a total obsession with Cerberus but the game was supposed to be about the Reapers not this tiny little terrorist organisation that they then had to retcon into the Galactic Empire to use as a villian.

/rant.  Sorry I agree with this point TIM would have made a naff boss fight but there was no reason they had to use TIM in that role.

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh dear god.  I said the Emperor was the villain and acted like it-you said he never had any confrontations and that's why harbinger was like him.  I said the Emperor tried to fight with and kill Luke-you were trying to say that the Emperor and Harbinger were alike in that neither of them fought at all.  And in that you implied even that Harbinger was at least partly in charge.  I didn't.

Where did I say Harbinger was the leader-you said he never did much of anything in any of the games so he wasn't really a villain.  Do you even remember what you write at all?  Stop pulling out other random analogies just to confuse it all-you have no logic here at all on which to base anything.  You're just using crap to say some stuff that makes no sense.  I'm sorry, it's true.  You can't even follow things you've previously said so you're just arguing to argue.

Harbinger doesn't have to be the leader to be a villain.  I couldn't care less if he was the boss or number 28 in command.  He has goo inside him-goo made from people.  That means I want him dead.  That does not mean I want him acting as gatekeeper for the galaxy and I don't want to have his space seed inside me.  Dead as in incapable of making people goo anymore.  Incapable of shooting at people and trying to kill them with his beam.  In case you didn't realize it people tend to hate the reapers as a whole-they don't pick and choose the reapers based on which ones are less evil and which ones are real killers.  They want to kill all of them.

I'm sorry that I misread it orignally but I never said Harbinger wasn't a villian.  Harbinger is a villian and he has a smaller role then the Emperor did.

How could you misread what you wrote?

I didn't notice that you're example of Vader was acting as a pawn.

[Fnork]

Blueprotoss wrote...
TIM has been a villian before his ME2 introduction based on how Cerberus has been an evil organization since ME1.  If TIM isn't a villian then Hitler must be a hero then.

I know I missed like 3 hours on this thread but what the hell  

I'm suprised this has gone on for 3 pages after you went Godwin's law on this thread. How can you take yourself seriously when using arguments like this ? How can you expect anyone else to ?

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Again this is another example of willfull use of ignorance.  I mean this in the sense that you know the meaning (the connotation) of the word within the context of its use.  The meaning was obvious.  However, as is always the case since this is like dealing with toddlers one must be extremely explicit and explain every single thing said so as not to be misconstrued.  I don't know how else to phrase this.  It's like me saying I love ice cream and someone thinking I mean I love ice cream romantically.  I can't say I wanted a happier ending without that being torn apart by people that by now do know what I mean.

How is that when confrontation is being used and I'm not insulting anyone.

3DandBeyond wrote... 

This is a game about the war, for the life of the galaxy for the very existence of all the people in it.  If I say I want a confrontation with the bad guys well you darned well know what I mean, but you have to act as ignorant as possible about it-I'm not saying you are ignorant, just that you are a good facsimile thereof-and say there is a confrontation.  No, not under the truest conditions.  There is no real authentic satisfying confrontation that leads to catharsis and a satisfying end.  You know full well that is what TAO was talking about-I am actually giving you credit for not being so ignorant as to not know this.

Shepard and Harbinger did have confrontations while you don't need to have gameplay to show that when cut scenes and dialogue can also do the trick.  The problem here is that everyone won't get want they want because ME is Bioware's story not our story.

[GreyLycanTrope]

No one takes him seriously after having a debate with him, that's just the way it is.

[Ithurael]

paul165 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

While what Hudson said was idiotic, I agree w/ the decision to not have a boss fight w/ TIM. His strength has always been his intellect. To reduce him to a battling Husk-Boss would have cheapened the character even further.

Well you know the obvious solution to that. Don't use TIM as your final boss.

I know Hudson has a total obsession with Cerberus but the game was supposed to be about the Reapers not this tiny little terrorist organisation that they then had to retcon into the Galactic Empire to use as a villian.

/rant.  Sorry I agree with this point TIM would have made a naff boss fight but there was no reason they had to use TIM in that role.

That is a good point. Cerberus never thematically represented the reapers in any way. And somehow they take center stage as the primary antagonists of ME3.

The whole cerberus storyline should have ended at Cronos Station.

Harbinger should have taken the antagonist place after TIM durng priority earth. If starkid is the emporer - pulling the strings and controlling everything - Harbinger is his right hand, the first reaper, the alpha.

The sheer fact that bioware had all that buildup for - zap - flys away. Derp....

I mean a video game being to video gamey.... that just seems asinine.

[Blueprotoss]

Fnork wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
TIM has been a villian before his ME2 introduction based on how Cerberus has been an evil organization since ME1.  If TIM isn't a villian then Hitler must be a hero then.

I know I missed like 3 hours on this thread but what the hell  

I'm suprised this has gone on for 3 pages after you went Godwin's law on this thread. How can you take yourself seriously when using arguments like this ? How can you expect anyone else to ?

Yet you act like you should be taken seriously when you're throwing out ad hominems left and right.  Maybe you should practice what you preach before casting the 1st stone.  Btw you do know that the Empire in Star Wars mirrored after Hitler and his SS troops just like Cerberus in ME.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

No one takes him seriously after having a debate with him, that's just the way it is.

Yet most people don't take you seriously while thats besides the point even when insulting people is more popular then the on facts forums.

[Fnork]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Fnork wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
TIM has been a villian before his ME2 introduction based on how Cerberus has been an evil organization since ME1.  If TIM isn't a villian then Hitler must be a hero then.

I know I missed like 3 hours on this thread but what the hell  

I'm suprised this has gone on for 3 pages after you went Godwin's law on this thread. How can you take yourself seriously when using arguments like this ? How can you expect anyone else to ?

Yet you act like you should be taken seriously when you're throwing out ad hominems left and right.  Maybe you should practice what you preach before casting the 1st stone.  Btw you do know that the Empire in Star Wars mirrored after Hitler and his SS troops just like Cerberus in ME.

Ad hominem ? You need to read up on Godwin's law. Left and right ? My postcount is minute at best. The minute you draw some kind of paralel with Hitler (of all things) you loose all credibility. I'd expect people to just walk away. Are you seriously sugesting Bioware modeled Cerberus after Hitler and the SS ? 

Edit; I'm going to practice what I preach and walk away. You're a few cards short of a full deck.

Modifié par Fnork, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[paul165]

No! Really? The Empire with their grey uniforms, jack boots and racist policies are modelled after the SS. What's next are you going to tell us that the Death Eaters were as well becuase I'm sure no-one could work that out.\\sarcasm.

Still doesn't excuse going Godwins in such a crude way though.

Modifié par paul165, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:14 .

[Rommel49]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...

That doesn't really hold true, however. Harbinger was pretty much alone when it exposed itself to fire on Earth to block access to the beam; there's an entire Allied fleet in space that's capable of bombarding it - it's called force concentration.

Harbinger was far from alone and he still could outgun multiple fleets at the same time like what Sovreign did.  Don't forget there would also be a fear factor present in this while that can't be measured.

There's no other big targets on the ground, this is the idea behind force concentration, achieving local superiority... which in this case is the area around the beam, (one of the two critical objectives during the battle). Things like Harbinger are why orders like Victor Target exist.

It takes four Dreadnoughts to kill a capital-class Reaper like Harbinger, I have the largest assembled fleet in history in orbit - it makes zero sense not to turn those guns on that target so it can no longer impede the objective of reaching the beam.

Modifié par Rommel49, 08 septembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Blueprotoss]

Fnork wrote...

Ad hominem ? You need to read up on Godwin's law. Left and right ? My postcount is minute at best. The minute you draw some kind of paralel with Hitler (of all things) you loose all credibility. I'd expect people to just walk away. Are you seriously sugesting Bioware modeled Cerberus after Hitler and the SS ?

I know what Godwin's Law is hence the comparison.  Cerberus is pro-human and ant-alien, which is a future version of the SS while you have TIM instead of Hitler.

Fnork wrote... 

Edit; I'm going to practice what I preach and walk away. You're a few cards short of a full deck.

Yet you're insulting people.

[Blueprotoss]

paul165 wrote...

No! Really? The Empire with their grey uniforms, jack boots and racist policies are modelled after the SS. What's next are you going to tell us that the Death Eaters were as well becuase I'm sure no-one could work that out.sarcasm.

Still doesn't excuse going Godwins in such a crude way though.

Stormtrooper is a nickname for the SS troops and the Empire themselves are modeled after fascism.

[Blueprotoss]

Rommel49 wrote...

There's no other big targets on the ground, this is the idea behind force concentration, achieving local superiority... which in this case is the area around the beam, (one of the two critical objectives during the battle). Things like Harbinger are why orders like Victor Target exist.

Harbinger isn't the Reaper leader.

Rommel49 wrote... 

It takes four Dreadnoughts to kill a capital-class Reaper like Harbinger, I have the largest assembled fleet in history in orbit - it makes zero sense not to turn those guns on that target so it can no longer impede the objective of reaching the beam.

If thats the case then neither Sovreign nor the Rannoch Reaper would have been killed a lot easier.  Also if Reapers were that easy to defeat then there be no need for a gun to shoot out Thresher Maws or for Leviathan.

[paul165]

Blueprotoss wrote...

paul165 wrote...

No! Really? The Empire with their grey uniforms, jack boots and racist policies are modelled after the SS. What's next are you going to tell us that the Death Eaters were as well becuase I'm sure no-one could work that out.sarcasm.

Still doesn't excuse going Godwins in such a crude way though.

Stormtrooper is a nickname for the SS troops and the Empire themselves are modeled after fascism.

Yes. I know. Everybody older than about 10 who has ever seen the films knows hence the sarcasm tag. Also stormtroopers weren't the SS they were the SA \\history pendant.

Still doesn't excuse the Godwins.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

AresKeith wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It's trying to be more than a videogame. I see nothing wrong with that. Especially not when Bioware bossfights usually sucks ass.

because they didn't play the DE:HR boss battles enough to get it right

Wait what... You're not saying the bosses in that game were good, are you?

the best boss battles are from the Metal Gear Solid series, and DE:HR boss battles were better than Deception Kai Leng

Deus Ex HR has some of the worst boss battles of all time. Even hardcore fans of that game hated them. If you like those, I'll just ignore you from now on. 

[AresKeith]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It's trying to be more than a videogame. I see nothing wrong with that. Especially not when Bioware bossfights usually sucks ass.

because they didn't play the DE:HR boss battles enough to get it right

Wait what... You're not saying the bosses in that game were good, are you?

the best boss battles are from the Metal Gear Solid series, and DE:HR boss battles were better than Deception Kai Leng

Deus Ex HR has some of the worst boss battles of all time. Even hardcore fans of that game hated them. If you like those, I'll just ignore you from now on. 

did I say I liked then, no. Did I say there were better than the Kai Leng fight, yes they are. While you haven't answered Eagle's question to you